80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Hrothdane]

Something Liara said near the end of
ME3 caught my attention in how it relates to a major theme I noticed
throughout the series:

"When you work alone, it becomes
easy to think you have all the answers."

Think about it.
The primary non-Reaper villains--Saren and TIM--were loners when the
fell to indoctrination. They may have had followers, but they lacked
true companions to question them. The fact that each had close family
(Saren) and companions (Jack Harper) that are lost around the time
their trip towards villainy begins seems especially telling. Notice
how Shepard can help both of them break free of indoctrination--even
for a moment--just by talking to them for a few minutes and showing
concern for them. Their decisions and actions become more and more
extreme because they don't have to justify them to anyone else and as
soon as they do, their resolve wavers.

We even get examples
of people that end up the opposite. Jack only reaches some
semblance of emotional health once she opens up to other people.
Mordin argues quite well for the Genophage's necessity, but he feels
incredibly conflicted about it inside. Even if Shepard agrees with
him, spending all that time discussing it with someone else gives him
a new perspective that causes him to completely reevaluate his
previous work. In fact, you can consider just about every person that
improves themself via Shepard's influence as an example of how
personal connections improve us.



Shepard's strong personal connections
might have even been what kept him/her from being indoctrinated
sooner. Shiala all but explicitly states that she and the other Zhu's
Hope colonists can resist indoctrination because of the mental link
left behind by the Thorian. The Heretic Geth left the consensus and
the Reaper upgrades in ME3 make each platform a true AI instead
of a collective intelligence, perhaps to make them easier to control.


The fact that the researchers on the derelict reaper started
sharing memories as they became indoctrinated seems to contradict
this interpretation, but really it serves to make the argument more
sophisticated. The scientists were not only sharing memories, but
they were forgetting whose they belonged to in the first place! If
they lack individuality, they cannot question decisions or compare
with others. They are of one mind, not many. Even the geth consensus
contains a variety of opinions, as shown by Legion many times. The
researchers on the derelict reaper exist to show that abandoning all
sense of self can be just as damaging as focusing entirely on the
self.

Now, I'm sure you guys wonder what this has to do with
IT. I think the Reapers are trying to isolate Shepard during the
ending sequence. Once the Catalyst shows up, you can't talk to
anyone. None of your friends or lovers can ground you in any way.
This is also why the Reaper Consciousness appears as the boy instead
of a close friend or love interest; the latter two would make Shepard
consider what that person would do as well. The little boy is just an
emotional symbol that appeals to Shepard's guilt, not a
fully-realized person that he/she can connect with on an intellectual
level. Start thinking about what the other party members would say if
they were with Shepard when he/she met the Catalyst. EDI would
cut apart his logic and might even tell Shepard she is fine
sacrificing herself for Destroy, Tali would say peaceful resolution
of the Geth/Quarian conflict proves the Catalyst wrong, Garrus would
see the Reaper Consciousness as another criminal trying to talk his
way out of justice, Javik would throw the kid out the airlock,
Liara's scientific curiosity would make her push the Catalyst for
more information before making a choice and might bring up the
ethical issues of synthesis, Ashley and Kaiden have serious trust
issues, and James would hold the airlock open while Javik figures out
how to pick up an energy being.

[munnellyladt]

byne wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

byne wrote...

We know nothing about their language, their history or what they look like. But we can assume this: They stand for everything we don't stand for. Also, they told me you guys look like dorks.

I am the man with no name. ZAP BRANIGAN AT YOUR SERVICE!

Every line that man says is gold

This is still my favorite Zapp line.

Mine is this;
www.youtube.com/watch

[Leonia]

@Hrothdane - Very well-thought out. I defnitely get chills when during the romance scene Shepard says "What would I do without you, Garurs?" and it has been stated many times that the squad is never around when possible Indoctrination is going on (Arrival, ending of ME3, etc.).

Kind of makes you think, huh? I'm not sure there is something "special" about Liara beyond her being the default LI of sorts but you really come to appreciate the importance of Shepard's crew over the course of all three games. It once was stated that friendship is one of the core themes of the games, moreso than "synthetics versus organics" anyway. You spend all that time helping each of them but they've helped Shepard in turn, maybe in a less obvious way.

I'm certainly worried about potentially meeting Leviathan alone at any rate (not that we know that for sure).

Modifié par leonia42, 04 août 2012 - 02:23 .

[masster blaster]

Hroth. That's why I like Ash. See me not be the most populer LI for Shepard, but I like that see can't trust my Shepard. In farness if Shepard were to ever be Indoctrinated, then I know Ash would kill my Shepard, but Liara can't kill Shepard. People can say Liara can, but in truth she can't.

Also Ash's poems always give me a warm feeling, and yet there is one poem that gives me the chils that Ash, or Shepard says.

[munnellyladt]

masster blaster wrote...

Hroth. That's why I like Ash. See me not be the most populer LI for Shepard, but I like that see can't trust my Shepard. In farness if Shepard were to ever be Indoctrinated, then I know Ash would kill my Shepard, but Liara can't kill Shepard. People can say Liara can, but in truth she can't.

Also Ash's poems always give me a warm feeling, and yet there is one poem that gives me the chils that Ash, or Shepard says.

Poetry?
I hear enough of that in english class.

[Cecilia L]

Interesting, Hroth.
Totally agree with leonia.

I both worry about playing Leviathan solo, but it may also be indicative of IT being the planned ending. Why else would they keep putting Shepard in these situations alone?

Modifié par Cecilia L, 04 août 2012 - 02:28 .

[Hrothdane]

masster blaster wrote...

Hroth. That's why I like Ash. See me not be the most populer LI for Shepard, but I like that see can't trust my Shepard. In farness if Shepard were to ever be Indoctrinated, then I know Ash would kill my Shepard, but Liara can't kill Shepard. People can say Liara can, but in truth she can't.

Also Ash's poems always give me a warm feeling, and yet there is one poem that gives me the chils that Ash, or Shepard says.

I don't get the hate for Ashley myself, and I would probably not even call myself a fan of her. She feels like a fully-rounded character and has some interesting but believable traits like the poetry thing. I also get some enjoyment out of how her father's favorite poem is the same as my father's (he uses lines from it for everything). The whole religious thing doesn't bother me either, and I've been a total atheist my whole life. She keeps it to herself and dosn't use it to justify extremism, so more power to her.

[masster blaster]

Leon. I really don't think Liara is special at all, well to a LI yes, but I say Ash or Kadin, because for some reason when I read about them. Well aparently they can form a bond with Shepard, and for me that's special. Or it the death of fomer squad mates are special because if you not. The more former/squad mates die, the more it looks like Shepard is loosing a part of his/her self.

[ZerebusPrime]

Hrothdane wrote...

Now, I'm sure you guys wonder what this has to do with
IT. I think the Reapers are trying to isolate Shepard during the
ending sequence. Once the Catalyst shows up, you can't talk to
anyone. None of your friends or lovers can ground you in any way.
This is also why the Reaper Consciousness appears as the boy instead
of a close friend or love interest; the latter two would make Shepard
consider what that person would do as well. The little boy is just an
emotional symbol that appeals to Shepard's guilt, not a
fully-realized person that he/she can connect with on an intellectual
level. Start thinking about what the other party members would say if
they were with Shepard when he/she met the Catalyst. EDI would
cut apart his logic and might even tell Shepard she is fine
sacrificing herself for Destroy, Tali would say peaceful resolution
of the Geth/Quarian conflict proves the Catalyst wrong, Garrus would
see the Reaper Consciousness as another criminal trying to talk his
way out of justice, Javik would throw the kid out the airlock,
Liara's scientific curiosity would make her push the Catalyst for
more information before making a choice and might bring up the
ethical issues of synthesis, Ashley and Kaiden have serious trust
issues, and James would hold the airlock open while Javik figures out
how to pick up an energy being.

Yes.  This.  That, even.  That specific part of his post.  That is one possible reason for why Harbinger didn't kill Shepard, didn't care about the Normandy leaving, and blasted one of our squadmates with intent to cause grievous wounding to force Shepard to advance alone.

It's another element of the Reapers trying to influence Shepard.  The less dissent he expresses the more entranced he becomes.

[masster blaster]

Leon. I really don't think Liara is special at all, well to a LI yes, but I say Ash or Kadin, because for some reason when I read about them. Well aparently they can form a bond with Shepard, and for me that's special. Or it the death of fomer squad mates are special because if you not. The more former/squad mates die, the more it looks like Shepard is loosing a part of his/her self.

[munnellyladt]

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13492198&If=8

The post by Chris bums me a little.

[shepskisaac]

In a different thread, someone said this:

masster blaster wrote...

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

From the hidden files in the EC, it seems Leviathan is a proto-Reaper of sorts-- perhaps the actual Reapers themselves, rather than the starship amalgam of flesh and machine that we're used to. We'll know more when the DLC hits, but this is also something interesting to address.

yes TSA found this and showed it to the IT thread when the EC came out, and there was a little more in the Earth dlc too.

Does anyone remember what these guys are talking about? What discovery that Leviathan is some proto-Reaper? And what new was found in Earth DLC???

[byne]

IsaacShep wrote...

In a different thread, someone said this:

masster blaster wrote...

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

From the hidden files in the EC, it seems Leviathan is a proto-Reaper of sorts-- perhaps the actual Reapers themselves, rather than the starship amalgam of flesh and machine that we're used to. We'll know more when the DLC hits, but this is also something interesting to address.

yes TSA found this and showed it to the IT thread when the EC came out, and there was a little more in the Earth dlc too.

Does anyone remember what these guys are talking about? What discovery that Leviathan is some proto-Reaper? And what new was found in Earth DLC???

There was a lot of Leviathan dialogue included with the EC DLC for some reason, and some more was included with the Earth DLC.

I think I recall one of the characters saying the Reapers didnt succeed in wiping out their creators entirely, and it was implied that Leviathan was one of them, possibly.

I'm not really sure, as I generally tried to avoid reading that stuff to stay away from spoilers.

If TSA were here he could explain it way better, I'm sure.

[Big_Boss9]

munnellyladt wrote...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13492198&If=8

The post by Chris bums me a little.

This?

Chris Priestly wrote...

I will leave "the majority of fans..." discussion to each person's interpretation. Certainly those who did not like the endings are much more vcal abotu it than those who did. The Extended Cut was "the end of the endings". The team is moving on with DLC for people who want more ME3 gameplay, but there are not planned to be any more "endings".

*Shrug* I take everything they say, for or against, with a grain of salt these days.

Modifié par Big_Boss9, 04 août 2012 - 03:03 .

[shepskisaac]

byne wrote...

There was a lot of Leviathan dialogue included with the EC DLC for some reason, and some more was included with the Earth DLC.

I think I recall one of the characters saying the Reapers didnt succeed in wiping out their creators entirely, and it was implied that Leviathan was one of them, possibly.

I'm not really sure, as I generally tried to avoid reading that stuff to stay away from spoilers.

If TSA were here he could explain it way better, I'm sure.

Ahh yeah, I remember those lines you're talking about. Forgot about them. Hmmm, so, Leviathan is not actually a big Reaper in machine body but some 'squishy' organic? Well I say that would be mighty interesting, especially since we all have pretty much assumed ever since ME1 that Leviathan would be just another Reaper like many others we've seen

[byne]

Big_Boss9 wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13492198&If=8

The post by Chris bums me a little.

This?

Chris Priestly wrote...

I will leave "the majority of fans..." discussion to each person's interpretation. Certainly those who did not like the endings are much more vcal abotu it than those who did. The Extended Cut was "the end of the endings". The team is moving on with DLC for people who want more ME3 gameplay, but there are not planned to be any more "endings".

*Shrug* I take everything they say, for or against, with a grain of salt these days.

Why exactly is endings in quotation marks?

[Cecilia L]

Wondering about that too. Is he going turian councilor on us?

[Hrothdane]

byne wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13492198&If=8

The post by Chris bums me a little.

This?

Chris Priestly wrote...

I will leave "the majority of fans..." discussion to each person's interpretation. Certainly those who did not like the endings are much more vcal abotu it than those who did. The Extended Cut was "the end of the endings". The team is moving on with DLC for people who want more ME3 gameplay, but there are not planned to be any more "endings".

*Shrug* I take everything they say, for or against, with a grain of salt these days.

Why exactly is endings in quotation marks?

My thoughts exactly. Especially after reading some of Bioware's twitter posts from when ME3 first came out, I keep getting the feeling they are trolling us HARD.

[dreamgazer]

Ah, yes. "Endings".

[Iconoclaste]

byne wrote...

The IT thread remains here as it is a valid possibility for the end of the game.

Anyone who does not like the IT or thinks it not to be correct is STRONGLY encouraged to stay away from discussion on it.

- Chris Priestly

And yet we still get people coming in here acting like IT has been officially debunked.

This could be avoided if there was a real consensus here, based on an easy-to-follow series of events that even the least informed of IT supporters could explain in a few, polite and concise lines of text, in a single post. You cannot expect any genuine newcomer to simply accept all the stuff being thrown around, while at the same time some discuss multiplayer, others post funny pics, others jump to the ceiling yelling "Troll alerrrrt!" even before reading the newcomer's motives of doubt or uncertainty. This is enforced by the fact that some of the most virulent IT "defenders" often don't know how to give a simple, coherent and credible answer. Posting links to hours of videos on Youtube is not a great way to answer single questions, this is like telling the customers in a restaurant "Well, go in the kitchen see for yourself, we're too busy here to welcome you properly". In fact, IT lacks a simple "menu", and lacks discipline amongst many of its "supporters" to refrain from jumping to conclusions and reach for their guns.

If anyone who is officially tagged "IT supporter" doubts upon some elements, the discussion will go on in an interesting, civilized manner. But if a newcomer comes in and asks the exact same question, he gets thrown off and placated with Youtube links, insults to the intelligence like "read 4000 pages of constant-relevant-elaborate discussion or get out", and such. Do you really think this behavior translates any kind of "clarity" about the IT's present state? Do not wonder then if ITers get bashed a lot outside of here! And if this annoys you, instead of closing the thread's doors maybe you should polish the "IT fundamentals" a bit more, so anyone here could answer any question rapidly, without a flinch of conflict with the relative strenght of each piece of evidence.

IT is always moving, going back and forth between interpretations pro and con certain scenes and hints, and sometimes with nothing more than the overused "there must be something going on" meme to "integrate new evidence" into the existing "allowed corpus". This, accepted with no discussion, is a flaw : there HAS to be a purpose, Shepard is not simply being shown tree shrubs and irrelevant reflections just for the sake of arising suspicion! Why would the Reapers do that? Against what principle such "hint" is tested, to be either allowed or disallowed into evidence? Or to be distinguished between a "Bioware wink-hint" and a "Reaper comforting illusion"?

The first step in communicating something elaborate like IT, in my humble opinion, should be to try to look at it from a "neutral" perspective in order to get a fresher look rather than just try to push any kind of object into the mold. From what I have seen here, too many times the IT is "taken for granted" with no stronger support than "Bioware did not disprove it, so...". So what? Does that tell any convincing plot to a non-believer? Does that make any kind of sense along with the rest of the evidence? It could never be a basis or "evidence" for IT because anything Bioware "did not disprove" may then be true, hence of equal value, supportive or unsupportive.

This thread is often fun to read, but sometimes I wonder if some supporters lingering here are just waiting for some "action" instead of bringing fresh air with a little bit of work and method. By refusing any and all "objections" IT is mostly discrediting itself by projecting an immature image to observers, something that has not yet reached any solid foundation, to the point many "IT defenders" will simply evade discussion and resort to off-topic distraction from the "test".

You can do better than this, Byne, and maybe you could appoint some people here to keep things civilized. The fact that some here go to other threads should not attract unwanted flame wars here, if they carry with them a simple toolset of answers instead of an arrogant attitude towards non believers. I liked the burgeoning of IT long time ago, and I have seen it taken as a ridiculous motto by many who don't even know what they are supporting. This is Trolling other threads, and WILL induce retaliation here. But like I said up here, this could be avoided. If you don't accept objections, this thread will continue to draw circles upon itself.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 04 août 2012 - 03:21 .

[Hrothdane]

dreamgazer wrote...

Ah, yes. "Endings".

The immortal group of RBG cutscenes allegedly involving player choice. We have dismissed this claim.

[JShepppp]

dreamgazer wrote...

Ah, yes. "Endings".

Ah yes, "endings." We have dismissed that claim (shameless self bump). But enjoy the picture at least.



On a serious note, props to you guys for your dedication, seriously. I may disagree with ITers from time to time, but I definitely respect all of you who put that much thought into it. Awesome job.

[BansheeOwnage]

Hrothdane wrote...

*awesome wall of text*

Very well said!

-BleedingUranium

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 04 août 2012 - 03:16 .

[Gwyphon]

When he uses "endings" in quotation marks, this leads me to believe they're not going to add any more CHOICES to the decision chamber, but it doesn't mean some can't be elaborated on. Can't really think of another reason to refer to the endings the way he did unless he doesn't like the term "endings".

[BansheeOwnage]

Gwyphon wrote...

When he uses "endings" in quotation marks, this leads me to believe they're not going to add any more CHOICES to the decision chamber, but it doesn't mean some can't be elaborated on. Can't really think of another reason to refer to the endings the way he did unless he doesn't like the term "endings".

That's what I figured, since we know Leviathan adds dialogue with the kid, at least.

-BleedingUranium