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[demersel]

A thought (i know, i know, you all porbably hate m, right now, i really don't care) - So we have those magor factions of, let's call them, "Masters of the universe" - the villians. - we've got reapers and leviathnas. Levaithans - are purely organic, their intent is to control
Reapers - are fusion of organic and tech - they kinda want synthesis...

You know what is missing? Some uber pure tech race - the one that has nothing organic and not interested in it - who's goal is actually to DESTROY all organic life.

You know, the synthetics, because of which leviathan's actually created reapers! (created an AI which in turn created reapers).

Modifié par demersel, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:04 .

[demersel]

SwobyJ wrote...

But now I think (when it comes to similar goals, etc):

Reapers --> Saren, Kenson
Leviathan --> TIM (we'll see... hopefully with Omega)

Why do you think Leviathan --> TIM?


And the last words of Harbinger in ME2 really suggest that there are other forces at work besides the reapers (and not just one force but several)

[BleedingUranium]

SwobyJ wrote...

plfranke wrote...

It really bothers me how much is floating around this thread that is not based on facts. Like "The Catalyst is Shepard" and "The AI is Harbinger". No evidence for either of these things, just gut instincts.

A gut instinct isn't really a bad thing, you know. Some of the greatest discoveries have been found through this, instead of strict logical reasoning.

-AI-Child claims to be Catalyst
-AI-Child, however isn't the one to make the 'change happen' (lol wat, that's exactly what a catalyst is supposed to do!)
-Leviathan says they made an Intelligence (does not call it the Catalyst)
-Also says nothing about it being housed on the Citadel, even though they've watched the cycles for many, many years
-Leviathan claims it created Intelligence to protect organic life. 'Catalyst' claims it was created to facilitate a connection between synthetic and organic life (lol wat, that's totally different. It may have a same origin point, but its moved far away from 'protect organics' and should be at least treated as faulty AI)
-Shepard is the one to facilitate peace and progression in every single major conflict of the series

That's enough to say that the Catalyst just MAY not be what it claims to be, and even enough to have an *assumption* that Shepard himself may be the Catalyst.

Agreed.

[BatmanTurian]

plfranke wrote...

It really bothers me how much is floating around this thread that is not based on facts. Like "The Catalyst is Shepard" and "The AI is Harbinger". No evidence for either of these things, just gut instincts.

You do realize that a piece of literature can infer something and not come out and say it. It's usually when the author expects the readers to be intelligent enough to figure it out if they just leave a few breadcrumbs. I'm sorry that it bothers you that people are coming to conclusions that are inferred by the writers.

Oh wait, no I'm not. God, you complain about everything.

[BatmanTurian]

starlitegirlx wrote...

plfranke wrote...

It really bothers me how much is floating around this thread that is not based on facts. Like "The Catalyst is Shepard" and "The AI is Harbinger". No evidence for either of these things, just gut instincts.

My speculation is that the catalyst is shepard. I never said it was fact. I stated it as an opinion.

The AI, however, is proven to be harbinger. Do the refusal and the child voice turns to Harbinger's voice. That such a thing happens seems to be pretty factual to me. Refusal is similar to destroy in that it is not being indoctrinated because you do not choose control or synthesis. That triggers harbinger to speak as itself or rather it triggers shepard to hear what the brat actually sounds like because the spell of indoctrination or the hallucination is over. And it turns out that the brat is harbinger mindscrewing shepard. If you want some really strong proof that the whole citadel timeframe is IT, you sure as hell get it when you choose refuse and hear harbinger's voice. There's no other possible logical reason as to why the child's voice suddenly becomes harbinger except that it was harbinger right along and shepard was undergoing indoctrination. Also, now that we know it is harbinger screwing with shepard's mind, then we have to wonder about the catalyst. Harbinger is not the catalyst. The child was harbinger. The only thing left is shepard. So shepard must be the catalyst since in the other options, now knowing that the brat is not the catalyst but is harbinger, shepard is able to activate the crucible. So if shepard activates the crucible and the thing we were told was the catalyst turns out to be a mind screw that is harbinger then the only thing left that could be the catalyst is Shepard otherwise destroy would do nothing unless shepard is still on the ground in london after being hit by the beam and has never even made it onto the crucible.

All of the above fully supports IT. And it is all based off the very clear fact that habinger is the brat all along and you learn this when you refuse because you hear harbinger's voice quite clearly.

You see? Very clear logic just by following a few breadcrumbs and using a process of elimination.

[plfranke]

BatmanTurian wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

plfranke wrote...

It really bothers me how much is floating around this thread that is not based on facts. Like "The Catalyst is Shepard" and "The AI is Harbinger". No evidence for either of these things, just gut instincts.

My speculation is that the catalyst is shepard. I never said it was fact. I stated it as an opinion.

The AI, however, is proven to be harbinger. Do the refusal and the child voice turns to Harbinger's voice. That such a thing happens seems to be pretty factual to me. Refusal is similar to destroy in that it is not being indoctrinated because you do not choose control or synthesis. That triggers harbinger to speak as itself or rather it triggers shepard to hear what the brat actually sounds like because the spell of indoctrination or the hallucination is over. And it turns out that the brat is harbinger mindscrewing shepard. If you want some really strong proof that the whole citadel timeframe is IT, you sure as hell get it when you choose refuse and hear harbinger's voice. There's no other possible logical reason as to why the child's voice suddenly becomes harbinger except that it was harbinger right along and shepard was undergoing indoctrination. Also, now that we know it is harbinger screwing with shepard's mind, then we have to wonder about the catalyst. Harbinger is not the catalyst. The child was harbinger. The only thing left is shepard. So shepard must be the catalyst since in the other options, now knowing that the brat is not the catalyst but is harbinger, shepard is able to activate the crucible. So if shepard activates the crucible and the thing we were told was the catalyst turns out to be a mind screw that is harbinger then the only thing left that could be the catalyst is Shepard otherwise destroy would do nothing unless shepard is still on the ground in london after being hit by the beam and has never even made it onto the crucible.

All of the above fully supports IT. And it is all based off the very clear fact that habinger is the brat all along and you learn this when you refuse because you hear harbinger's voice quite clearly.

You see? Very clear logic just by following a few breadcrumbs and using a process of elimination.

Sure, because "Do the refuse and the child voice turns into Harbinger's voice." is very clear logic. The voice in refuse and Harbinger's voice are nothing alike.

[plfranke]

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

It really bothers me how much is floating around this thread that is not based on facts. Like "The Catalyst is Shepard" and "The AI is Harbinger". No evidence for either of these things, just gut instincts.

You do realize that a piece of literature can infer something and not come out and say it. It's usually when the author expects the readers to be intelligent enough to figure it out if they just leave a few breadcrumbs. I'm sorry that it bothers you that people are coming to conclusions that are inferred by the writers.

Oh wait, no I'm not. God, you complain about everything.

Actually, the only time I complain is about Demersal's posts about the derelict man. I don't know why you feel you have to label me as such a bad guy in all of your posts.

[BatmanTurian]

plfranke wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

plfranke wrote...

It really bothers me how much is floating around this thread that is not based on facts. Like "The Catalyst is Shepard" and "The AI is Harbinger". No evidence for either of these things, just gut instincts.

My speculation is that the catalyst is shepard. I never said it was fact. I stated it as an opinion.

The AI, however, is proven to be harbinger. Do the refusal and the child voice turns to Harbinger's voice. That such a thing happens seems to be pretty factual to me. Refusal is similar to destroy in that it is not being indoctrinated because you do not choose control or synthesis. That triggers harbinger to speak as itself or rather it triggers shepard to hear what the brat actually sounds like because the spell of indoctrination or the hallucination is over. And it turns out that the brat is harbinger mindscrewing shepard. If you want some really strong proof that the whole citadel timeframe is IT, you sure as hell get it when you choose refuse and hear harbinger's voice. There's no other possible logical reason as to why the child's voice suddenly becomes harbinger except that it was harbinger right along and shepard was undergoing indoctrination. Also, now that we know it is harbinger screwing with shepard's mind, then we have to wonder about the catalyst. Harbinger is not the catalyst. The child was harbinger. The only thing left is shepard. So shepard must be the catalyst since in the other options, now knowing that the brat is not the catalyst but is harbinger, shepard is able to activate the crucible. So if shepard activates the crucible and the thing we were told was the catalyst turns out to be a mind screw that is harbinger then the only thing left that could be the catalyst is Shepard otherwise destroy would do nothing unless shepard is still on the ground in london after being hit by the beam and has never even made it onto the crucible.

All of the above fully supports IT. And it is all based off the very clear fact that habinger is the brat all along and you learn this when you refuse because you hear harbinger's voice quite clearly.

You see? Very clear logic just by following a few breadcrumbs and using a process of elimination.

Sure, because "Do the refuse and the child voice turns into Harbinger's voice." is very clear logic. The voice in refuse and Harbinger's voice are nothing alike.

They sound almost exactly alike. Except " SO BE IT" makes harbinger sound like he's having a temper tantrum because he broke his favorite toy.

Actually, now the little boy avatar is fitting in that way...

[BatmanTurian]

plfranke wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

It really bothers me how much is floating around this thread that is not based on facts. Like "The Catalyst is Shepard" and "The AI is Harbinger". No evidence for either of these things, just gut instincts.

You do realize that a piece of literature can infer something and not come out and say it. It's usually when the author expects the readers to be intelligent enough to figure it out if they just leave a few breadcrumbs. I'm sorry that it bothers you that people are coming to conclusions that are inferred by the writers.

Oh wait, no I'm not. God, you complain about everything.

Actually, the only time I complain is about Demersal's posts about the derelict man. I don't know why you feel you have to label me as such a bad guy in all of your posts.

You come off as negative sometimes. Perhaps I am misreading your tone?

[demersel]

What if the crucible - really combined effort of those 3 forces - reapers, leviathan's and supersSytnetics - those are in constant never ending war with each other, what if at one point they sort all started negotiations (through pawns) - about how to resolve their conflict - thus the part (to facilitate a connection between synthetic and organic life) - and they all move in their preposals, and incorporated them all into a single device - one that they would not build themselves, but rather if any one completes it - he gets to decide their argument - think about it - each of those outcomes benefit one of the sides - Destroy - all synthetic life is obliterated - leviathans win. Control - all synthetic life is controlled by the reapers (since they already control the agent), and they already pretty much screwed leviathnas, Synthesis - supersyntetics win - no more organic life forever.
Refuse - nothing happens, everything just continues as it was.

[plfranke]

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

plfranke wrote...

It really bothers me how much is floating around this thread that is not based on facts. Like "The Catalyst is Shepard" and "The AI is Harbinger". No evidence for either of these things, just gut instincts.

My speculation is that the catalyst is shepard. I never said it was fact. I stated it as an opinion.

The AI, however, is proven to be harbinger. Do the refusal and the child voice turns to Harbinger's voice. That such a thing happens seems to be pretty factual to me. Refusal is similar to destroy in that it is not being indoctrinated because you do not choose control or synthesis. That triggers harbinger to speak as itself or rather it triggers shepard to hear what the brat actually sounds like because the spell of indoctrination or the hallucination is over. And it turns out that the brat is harbinger mindscrewing shepard. If you want some really strong proof that the whole citadel timeframe is IT, you sure as hell get it when you choose refuse and hear harbinger's voice. There's no other possible logical reason as to why the child's voice suddenly becomes harbinger except that it was harbinger right along and shepard was undergoing indoctrination. Also, now that we know it is harbinger screwing with shepard's mind, then we have to wonder about the catalyst. Harbinger is not the catalyst. The child was harbinger. The only thing left is shepard. So shepard must be the catalyst since in the other options, now knowing that the brat is not the catalyst but is harbinger, shepard is able to activate the crucible. So if shepard activates the crucible and the thing we were told was the catalyst turns out to be a mind screw that is harbinger then the only thing left that could be the catalyst is Shepard otherwise destroy would do nothing unless shepard is still on the ground in london after being hit by the beam and has never even made it onto the crucible.

All of the above fully supports IT. And it is all based off the very clear fact that habinger is the brat all along and you learn this when you refuse because you hear harbinger's voice quite clearly.

You see? Very clear logic just by following a few breadcrumbs and using a process of elimination.

Sure, because "Do the refuse and the child voice turns into Harbinger's voice." is very clear logic. The voice in refuse and Harbinger's voice are nothing alike.

They sound almost exactly alike. Except " SO BE IT" makes harbinger sound like he's having a temper tantrum because he broke his favorite toy.

Actually, now the little boy avatar is fitting in that way...

I don't hear Harbinger's voice at all in the refuse. If anything it sounds more like Sovereign or Rannoch Reaper. That voice is pure machine. Harbinger has a very organic feel to his voice. Perhaps you could argue that the refuse voice is Harbinger's voice modified. However, I'm certain that you can't believe the SO BE IT voice is identical to, say, when Harbinger is speaking in the trailer.

[demersel]

plfranke wrote...
I don't hear Harbinger's voice at all in the refuse. If anything it sounds more like Sovereign or Rannoch Reaper. That voice is pure machine. Harbinger has a very organic feel to his voice. Perhaps you could argue that the refuse voice is Harbinger's voice modified. However, I'm certain that you can't believe the SO BE IT voice is identical to, say, when Harbinger is speaking in the trailer.

It could be combined voice of both shepards plus childs, process through a reaper filter. Would make sense - the indoctrinated part of shepards brain, getting angry and locking him in terminal standoff.  You do know that reaper voice is just a sound filter, right? As is the childs voice actually. 

[BatmanTurian]

plfranke wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

plfranke wrote...

It really bothers me how much is floating around this thread that is not based on facts. Like "The Catalyst is Shepard" and "The AI is Harbinger". No evidence for either of these things, just gut instincts.

My speculation is that the catalyst is shepard. I never said it was fact. I stated it as an opinion.

The AI, however, is proven to be harbinger. Do the refusal and the child voice turns to Harbinger's voice. That such a thing happens seems to be pretty factual to me. Refusal is similar to destroy in that it is not being indoctrinated because you do not choose control or synthesis. That triggers harbinger to speak as itself or rather it triggers shepard to hear what the brat actually sounds like because the spell of indoctrination or the hallucination is over. And it turns out that the brat is harbinger mindscrewing shepard. If you want some really strong proof that the whole citadel timeframe is IT, you sure as hell get it when you choose refuse and hear harbinger's voice. There's no other possible logical reason as to why the child's voice suddenly becomes harbinger except that it was harbinger right along and shepard was undergoing indoctrination. Also, now that we know it is harbinger screwing with shepard's mind, then we have to wonder about the catalyst. Harbinger is not the catalyst. The child was harbinger. The only thing left is shepard. So shepard must be the catalyst since in the other options, now knowing that the brat is not the catalyst but is harbinger, shepard is able to activate the crucible. So if shepard activates the crucible and the thing we were told was the catalyst turns out to be a mind screw that is harbinger then the only thing left that could be the catalyst is Shepard otherwise destroy would do nothing unless shepard is still on the ground in london after being hit by the beam and has never even made it onto the crucible.

All of the above fully supports IT. And it is all based off the very clear fact that habinger is the brat all along and you learn this when you refuse because you hear harbinger's voice quite clearly.

You see? Very clear logic just by following a few breadcrumbs and using a process of elimination.

Sure, because "Do the refuse and the child voice turns into Harbinger's voice." is very clear logic. The voice in refuse and Harbinger's voice are nothing alike.

They sound almost exactly alike. Except " SO BE IT" makes harbinger sound like he's having a temper tantrum because he broke his favorite toy.

Actually, now the little boy avatar is fitting in that way...

I don't hear Harbinger's voice at all in the refuse. If anything it sounds more like Sovereign or Rannoch Reaper. That voice is pure machine. Harbinger has a very organic feel to his voice. Perhaps you could argue that the refuse voice is Harbinger's voice modified. However, I'm certain that you can't believe the SO BE IT voice is identical to, say, when Harbinger is speaking in the trailer.

You're right. I'm saying it sounds like a pissed-off Harbinger. Normally he is calm and arrogant, but here he is clearly rattled and pissed and so his voice is more forceful and slightly deeper with rage beneath. A person's voice changes with their emotions and it's been shown that Sovereign class Reapers DO have emotions, such as in ME1 when Sovereign temporarily possessed Saren after finding out about Shepard saving the colony and using the beacon. He expresses his anger with a temper tantrum before telling Benezia that Shepard has to stop making him look like a screwup.
And I'm sure you want to know why I think he's possessing Saren. It's because al of the lights in the cabin where they are inside Sovreign flash red while he's angry. Clearly, he and Sovereign are linked and Saren is possessed in that scene.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:34 .

[Bill Casey]

The voice doesn't sound like Harbinger...
Although I don't know what Harbinger's yelling voice would sound like...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:40 .

[demersel]

This "so be it" alsway came off as annoyence - Like harbinger, saying "****-it, husk it is" to slow and carefull indoctrination and pushing with all his might, turning shepard into a mindless husk.

Modifié par demersel, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:41 .

[plfranke]

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

plfranke wrote...

It really bothers me how much is floating around this thread that is not based on facts. Like "The Catalyst is Shepard" and "The AI is Harbinger". No evidence for either of these things, just gut instincts.

You do realize that a piece of literature can infer something and not come out and say it. It's usually when the author expects the readers to be intelligent enough to figure it out if they just leave a few breadcrumbs. I'm sorry that it bothers you that people are coming to conclusions that are inferred by the writers.

Oh wait, no I'm not. God, you complain about everything.

Actually, the only time I complain is about Demersal's posts about the derelict man. I don't know why you feel you have to label me as such a bad guy in all of your posts.

You come off as negative sometimes. Perhaps I am misreading your tone?

While I be negative about IT, I never direct my negativity at one person (except demersal with his crazy theories). My negativity is more often against ideas and are based within the argument side of things, but that's primarily because I don't see a future for indoctrination in the end game anymore. You on the other hand are constantly personally attacking me when you respond to my posts, almost as if you believe I'm not only against IT but the people within the thread. I regulary defend stronger points of the theory and rarely side with any literalists on anything. However, what I don't agree with are ideas that are not fact based, for instance anything spawning from the notion that the voice in refuse is Harbinger's voice when that's inconclusive at best. When you have to take x that could or could not be y and then take a trail of very tiny breadcrumbs that lead to z I'm not gonna be on board.

I also don't like ideas that don't seem to add anything to the story. The derelict man is a perfect example of this. However, Shepard being the Catalyst can apply as well. This idea would have you believe that a civilization, perhaps billions of years ago, created a device that over the course of time was added to and at some point required something no one knew would even exist in order to function properly.

[plfranke]

Bill Casey wrote...

The voice doesn't sound like Harbinger...
Although I don't know what Harbinger's yelling voice would sound like...

Thank you Bill.

[demersel]

Bill Casey wrote...

The voice doesn't sound like Harbinger...

It doesn't. Nor does it sounds like Leviathan. 

What it does sound like - the three voices - (child's+ male shepard's+female's shepards)*reaper sound filter.