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[demersel]

Rankincountry wrote...

A significant theme in ME1 is the disruption caused to the galactic status quo by humanity - in the space of a single generation from the first contact war (barely a blink to an Asari, shocking even to the quick thinking and fast living Salarians) humans have gone from tentative steps to colonising from their dilapidated homeworld (the codex description of Earth is clear that the gap between rich and poor remains gigantic and that pollution is severe) to a seat on the council. This would be unthinkable for any other species.

Even in the  first contact war, human ships were less numerous than the turians but our fleets and soldiers were a qualitative match for the council's mightiest military force. We're like the ultimate gatecrashers - bursting right through the front door, taking over the stereo and changing the whole feel of the party.

Shepard is the avatar of this disruptive, unpredictable species - I think you're on to something here.

Ok. Everybody already hates me here, but i have to point out - yes this is true and yes this is an anomaly - humanity'sprogress is too fast. It is as if something was uplifting it. guiding it. 

And the period between the end of first contact war, to the start of mass effect one - is exaclty the same that Illusive man been active as illusive man - it happened after he got exposed to that artifact. 

He straight out tells you - his goal is uplifting humanity and ensuring it's domination.  

[Rankincountry]

demersel wrote...

Rankincountry wrote...

A significant theme in ME1 is the disruption caused to the galactic status quo by humanity - in the space of a single generation from the first contact war (barely a blink to an Asari, shocking even to the quick thinking and fast living Salarians) humans have gone from tentative steps to colonising from their dilapidated homeworld (the codex description of Earth is clear that the gap between rich and poor remains gigantic and that pollution is severe) to a seat on the council. This would be unthinkable for any other species.

Even in the  first contact war, human ships were less numerous than the turians but our fleets and soldiers were a qualitative match for the council's mightiest military force. We're like the ultimate gatecrashers - bursting right through the front door, taking over the stereo and changing the whole feel of the party.

Shepard is the avatar of this disruptive, unpredictable species - I think you're on to something here.

Ok. Everybody already hates me here, but i have to point out - yes this is true and yes this is an anomaly - humanity'sprogress is too fast. It is as if something was uplifting it. guiding it. 

And the period between the end of first contact war, to the start of mass effect one - is exaclty the same that Illusive man been active as illusive man - it happened after he got exposed to that artifact. 

He straight out tells you - his goal is uplifting humanity and ensuring it's domination.  

That's a bit strong - I certainly don't hate you. You do have some barmy notions, though . But yeah, the only other species that achieved anything like the advances made by humanity was, of course, the Krogan. And of course, they were being manipulated all the way. So I don't think it's a huge leap to think that there is something behind humanity's dizzying ascent to power. The convenience of the Prothean archive both historically and with the crucible designs, TIM... and if we continue the thought that behind TIM is not Harbinger but Leviathan, maybe humanity is Leviathan's last throw of the dice - a species driven, courageous and violent enough to stop the reapers, but still susceptible to Thralldom? 

Maybe I'm reaching here, I don't know, but the more I think about this the more I feel like there's something to it.

[demersel]

Rankincountry wrote...
That's a bit strong - I certainly don't hate you. You do have some barmy notions, though . But yeah, the only other species that achieved anything like the advances made by humanity was, of course, the Krogan. And of course, they were being manipulated all the way. So I don't think it's a huge leap to think that there is something behind humanity's dizzying ascent to power. The convenience of the Prothean archive both historically and with the crucible designs, TIM... and if we continue the thought that behind TIM is not Harbinger but Leviathan, maybe humanity is Leviathan's last throw of the dice - a species driven, courageous and violent enough to stop the reapers, but still susceptible to Thralldom? 

Maybe I'm reaching here, I don't know, but the more I think about this the more I feel like there's something to it.

Except cerberus research projects do not resemble that of leviathan's (and to make the difference even more apparent - the leviathans also are shown using humans - and that is completely different).  So no, I think leviathans being the ones uplifting humanity through Illusive man are even less likely than Illusive man actually being a front for damaged reaper - 9he was so baldy damaged, that when it got in contact with the Jack Harper - something new was born - an intelligence with all the knowledge and power of a reaper, yet not binded by the reaper logic) 

Modifié par demersel, 24 octobre 2012 - 12:56 .

[Davik Kang]

Hi everyone.  I think there is a lot more to ME1-3 than what we see at the moment.  I want to try to understand a lot of mysteries that are present throughout the game.  One of the mysteries is indoctrination, and how exaclty it affects Shepard, especially at the end of ME3, but it is not the only mystery.

I am trying to get to the bottom of it all, but it is pretty clear that no way can I do it myself.  So I am going to try to get some people to help me look a little closer at various aspects of ME1-3.  It might even turn into a kind of freelance project of there's enough support.

It's not solely IT-related, so I'll create some new threads for it, if it takes off.

The IT threads have always been dedicated to looking for actual answers and analysing evidence.  Some really good ideas have also been generated.  This thread has been my inspiration for finding the answers underneath what we see.  So might some of you be interested in this?

The main premise behind this is that ME1-3 was actually written extremely carefully and intelligently, and that certain bizarre events, especially towards the end, can be explained by previous in-game evidence, and not simply attributed to lazy development or bad writing.  If this is wrong, and that a lot of it is just flat out mistakes, then it could end up being just searching for stuff that isn't there.  But at the moment I think it is there.  It's just that it'll take a hell of a lot of work.

I'll create a proper initial thread for this, but just wondered what some of you might think.

[demersel]

I'm game. )))

[Hrothdane]

Davik Kang wrote...

Hi everyone.  I think there is a lot more to ME1-3 than what we see at the moment.  I want to try to understand a lot of mysteries that are present throughout the game.  One of the mysteries is indoctrination, and how exaclty it affects Shepard, especially at the end of ME3, but it is not the only mystery.

I am trying to get to the bottom of it all, but it is pretty clear that no way can I do it myself.  So I am going to try to get some people to help me look a little closer at various aspects of ME1-3.  It might even turn into a kind of freelance project of there's enough support.

It's not solely IT-related, so I'll create some new threads for it, if it takes off.

The IT threads have always been dedicated to looking for actual answers and analysing evidence.  Some really good ideas have also been generated.  This thread has been my inspiration for finding the answers underneath what we see.  So might some of you be interested in this?

The main premise behind this is that ME1-3 was actually written extremely carefully and intelligently, and that certain bizarre events, especially towards the end, can be explained by previous in-game evidence, and not simply attributed to lazy development or bad writing.  If this is wrong, and that a lot of it is just flat out mistakes, then it could end up being just searching for stuff that isn't there.  But at the moment I think it is there.  It's just that it'll take a hell of a lot of work.

I'll create a proper initial thread for this, but just wondered what some of you might think.

My answer is in my signature

[Rankincountry]

demersel wrote...

Rankincountry wrote...
That's a bit strong - I certainly don't hate you. You do have some barmy notions, though . But yeah, the only other species that achieved anything like the advances made by humanity was, of course, the Krogan. And of course, they were being manipulated all the way. So I don't think it's a huge leap to think that there is something behind humanity's dizzying ascent to power. The convenience of the Prothean archive both historically and with the crucible designs, TIM... and if we continue the thought that behind TIM is not Harbinger but Leviathan, maybe humanity is Leviathan's last throw of the dice - a species driven, courageous and violent enough to stop the reapers, but still susceptible to Thralldom? 

Maybe I'm reaching here, I don't know, but the more I think about this the more I feel like there's something to it.

Except cerberus research projects do not resemble that of leviathan's (and to make the difference even more apparent - the leviathans also are shown using humans - and that is completely different).  So no, I think leviathans being the ones uplifting humanity through Illusive man are even less likely than Illusive man actually being a front for damaged reaper - 9he was so baldy damaged, that when it got in contact with the Jack Harper - something new was born - an intelligence with all the knowledge and power of a reaper, yet not binded by the reaper logic) 

Or - deep breath, put on glasses, do serious face for sober analysis - humanity is something new in organic evolution - a uniquely adaptable species capable of doing all of this without being uplifted. That would explain why Harbinger wants us for the next reaper and why the Leviathans want us for thralls. And TIM is what he appears to be  - leader of an unknowingly indoctrinated splinter group manipulated by Harbinger and/or Sovereign to disrupt resistance in this cycle, just like Javik's betrayers undermined the Protheans from within.

And this is the frustration of ME. Speculation that might just be true, but BW won't quite give us enough evidence to figure it out. I'm not saying we need it spoonfed, or we need a big reveal DLC - just more than what we have at the moment, which is like 250 pieces from a 1000 piece jigsaw, and no box to show us the picture.

[Rankincountry]

Davik Kang wrote...

Hi everyone.  I think there is a lot more to ME1-3 than what we see at the moment.  I want to try to understand a lot of mysteries that are present throughout the game.  One of the mysteries is indoctrination, and how exaclty it affects Shepard, especially at the end of ME3, but it is not the only mystery.

I am trying to get to the bottom of it all, but it is pretty clear that no way can I do it myself.  So I am going to try to get some people to help me look a little closer at various aspects of ME1-3.  It might even turn into a kind of freelance project of there's enough support.

It's not solely IT-related, so I'll create some new threads for it, if it takes off.

The IT threads have always been dedicated to looking for actual answers and analysing evidence.  Some really good ideas have also been generated.  This thread has been my inspiration for finding the answers underneath what we see.  So might some of you be interested in this?

The main premise behind this is that ME1-3 was actually written extremely carefully and intelligently, and that certain bizarre events, especially towards the end, can be explained by previous in-game evidence, and not simply attributed to lazy development or bad writing.  If this is wrong, and that a lot of it is just flat out mistakes, then it could end up being just searching for stuff that isn't there.  But at the moment I think it is there.  It's just that it'll take a hell of a lot of work.

I'll create a proper initial thread for this, but just wondered what some of you might think.

I've just started a trilogy playthrough (only just gone to the Citadel after Eden Prime - paragon femshep vanguard). It'll probably take me a while, but is there anything you would like me to test or look out for? I have BDTS in ME1 and all story DLC for ME2 and 3.

Also have a paragon maleshep infiltrator ready to start ME3.

[demersel]

If TIM is indoctrinated by Harbinger (which is most likely, since all cerberus work essentually mirrors that of Harbinger) - why is he allowed to sabotage the work that we know for a fact is personally supervised by Harbinger? If TIM is under influence of any reaper why is that still so?

[demersel]

TIM wants to uplift Humanity. But he doesn't want to let harbinger do it. Yet he uses all the same nethods. AND in ME3 the reapers already use cerberus's research. Not in ME2. What changed? We destroyed the derelict reaper.

[Davik Kang]

demersel wrote...
I'm game. )))

Hrothdane wrote...
My answer is in my signature

Ok good, thanks.  The stuff demersel has been talking about recently is directly linked to many of the things I've been thinking about.  I'll go into these briefly here so that at least you've an idea of what I'm going on about before I make the thread.

First, TIM is a Reaper.  I don't think he's a Reaper.  If we find eveidence to the contrary, great.  But one thing I'm looking at is the galactic war as a whole, and the power players within it.  One is Verberus.  Another is the Reapers.  There's also Leviathan.  And the Council.  

This war isn't us and them.  There are lots of factions who desire power.  But which faction have I not mentioned yet?  Is it 'humnaity'?  It is not.  It is the Systems Alliance.

I have been looking into the Systems Alliance and there is a lot of stuff that suggests they are not the 'good guy side' which we always presume them to be.  I won't go into it all here - it'll need its own thread - but the point is, many of the factions are not so different to the Reapers themselves.  More accurately, they are one of many power players looking to gain the upper hand, an upper hand that can only be gained by war.


Another thing I'm looking at is how these various powers see Shepard as one of the most powerful pieces on the board,a nd how they hope to win her to their own side.  IT is all about the Reapers doing this.

In ME1, we work for the Council.  In ME2, we work for Cerberus.  In ME3, we work for the Systems Alliance.  Not only that, but in ME3 we have the Turian-built Normandy, we have Spectre status giving us Council power, and we have a new ship and synthetic/cybernetci implants provided for us by Cerberus.  Shepard is becoming the ultimate soldier and who controls him is key.

Food for thought before I go into it - Hackett is an extremely suspicious character, so I want to look at him, his motives and his actions in more detail.  The Council is also a point of interest, especially in how they use Turian and Salarian skills to their advantage and how ultimately they have the Asari at the peak.  I want to go into Indoctrination as a whole, not just how it's used by the Reapers.  I also want to look at the endings and what they might imply.

It'll need multiple threads cos there's too much to go into in one go.  But the point of it all will be to have various good people of BSN working together to figure it out.  At the moment BSN is split into factions, and it is really hard for a small faction to look at all this stuff.  With more people working together, we might be able to figure out a lot more than what we have so far.

[DoomsdayDevice]

BleedingUranium wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

*snip*

Cool. I like the Sun Tsu reference because I have The Art of War, the Tao Tae Ching, and the Book of Five Rings. I dig Eastern philosophy. But anyway, clearly Tim has something up his sleeve in omega, probably the actual catalyst, which might change the ending to make Shepard call Starbinger on his bullsh*t.

IF the Prothian VI was hacked, its possible TIM was leading Shepard into a trap, so he wouldn't interfere with his real plan.

Honestly, Vendetta might just be a complete fabrication by Cerberus. By the time you get to the temple, Kai Leng had been there a while ago, plenty of time to plant the VI. Besides, you find a beacon and then a VI comes out of it? What? That makes about as much sense as Starbinger. We've known since ME1 that beacons and VIs are very, very different things. What's even more interesting is that because of Vendetta, we never actually used the beacon!

Not to mention the fact that there's a Reaper horn/noise when Shepard senses the beacon. Check it.

I think it's very possible that the VI was tempered with by the Reapers. The information that suggests the Reapers are only 'servants to the pattern' is exactly the little seed that needs to be planted in order for Shepard to be tricked into believing that the Reapers are only doing their programming in the end.

 Megumi found this, by the way. I can't believe I never noticed the Reaper horn before.

I think it's a perfectly good reason to assume that something's wrong with Vendetta.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:45 .

[Davik Kang]

Rankincountry wrote...
I've just started a trilogy playthrough (only just gone to the Citadel after Eden Prime - paragon femshep vanguard). It'll probably take me a while, but is there anything you would like me to test or look out for? I have BDTS in ME1 and all story DLC for ME2 and 3.

Also have a paragon maleshep infiltrator ready to start ME3.

I've done the same for ME1 and ME3.  In ME1, if this idea is going anywhere, I think a key bit is Eden Prime.  The bodies at the end of ME3 (Kaidan/Ash bodies) seem very much to be pointing to Eden Prime or Virmire, where Kaidan and Ash are wearing that armour.  So I'm going over Eden Prime again to see if there's anything there.  So far there a few weird things but nothing solid.  For example, the 'crazy' scientist who claims he's the "only sane one left".  He sees Saren, and also accurately predicts what is to come.  Are the others indoctrinated.  Is it only his meds which are keeping him sane?

Also, at the end of ME3, we have that absolutely bizarre Cortez crash scene.  If he dies, only 3 squad members can react - all human (Kaidan, Ash, Vega).  Kaidan and Ash scream as if they are about to die.  Vega starts hollering as if he is butchering Reaper drones.  It makes no sense, and what's more, the camera pans round so you can see your squadmates face showing no emotion whatsoever.  This really seems too bizarre to be an accident.  Is it refreshing guilt in Shepard's mind?  Does she hear this dialogue in her head?

In my ME3 restart, I noticed that all of the lettering we see in Vancouver is actually only prime numbers - 2,3,5,7.  We see prominent versions of those numbers in that order, and then little versions elsewhere, like on the crates.  Any E or S can be seen to be a 3 or 5 if you look closely at the shape.  The only non-prime number writing is TM 889, which we see on some expolsed scaffold, and then on the radio at the end of the mission.  What does it mean?  Anything?  Nothing?  Is the radio not really there?  Etc.  Unfortunately, looking at this kind of stuff may be a total rabbit hole, a big waste of time, so I have to be careful.

I also noticed that the facility on Mars looks a lot like the Citadel, with a long platform reaching out to the centre of a circle, and a rounded platform there, dropping down like a long tower.  Again though, whether this is significant or not, I can't say.  Is it implying the base was built not by Protheans but by Reapers?  It is noted that whoever was on the base last had been charting the course of Humanity's technological progress, thus presumably leaving the stuff there for humans to find (as Mars is right next door to Earth).

[demersel]

Ok. Davik it is all very interesting.
I'd like to say one thing - if you remember my post that started my "TIM is a repaer speculation" - i posted a few pictures - was asked - what is the big deal, and replayed - TIM is reaper, and that by extension gives us the galaxy being just space chess.

No the core to this idea was that there are many reapers. They are all sentiend and alive and independent. They are like the very elite club. So what do they do between the cycles? What if they play chess or Risk, or Civilization or Masters Of Orion, but with real civilizations in a real galaxy - after each harvest - the board is reset, each reaper (or just some of them) pick up a race the oversee - and the new cycle starts - basicly it means that each race has an overseeing reaper, that guides it, while harbinger is more like club president - oversees the entire thing and gets to decide who joins the club next. But besides the reapers there are other forces at work - and they want to break their game, and get rid of the reaper - they sabotage the galaxy - like the leviathans. Possibly - there are even others - like some synthetic race, that lives in the dark space and have no interest in the galaxy, except that they don't like it being there at all, but can't really do anything as long as reapers are around...

[demersel]

Galaxy - the relay network space - the council space - it is the reaper's private playground. it is their garden. which they harvest and cultivate. Other thing are beyond the galaxy - leviathans are into hiding, for example. that is why i thing that the game is played mostly by the reapers with other reapers.

[paxxton]

Hello.

[Davik Kang]

demersel wrote...
TIM wants to uplift Humanity. But he doesn't want to let harbinger do it. Yet he uses all the same nethods. AND in ME3 the reapers already use cerberus's research. Not in ME2. What changed? We destroyed the derelict reaper.

This is really important too, because: Cerberus use Reaper tech.  They steal the tech of their enemy to use it against them.  Who else does this?  We do.  EDI steals Eva's body.  The Systems Allaince use the re-built Shepard.  The VI says we need to use the Citadel, which we already know is Reaper tech.  

And the bits of human Reaper in the Cerberus base, the 'abomination'.  What do we do with it?  Hackett steals it and uses it to improve the Crucible.  Homestly, I think this war is more than just a good vs evil fight, it's a big time power struggle.

[demersel]

The facility on mars looks a lot like the Rio facility.

[Davik Kang]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
I think it's a perfectly good reason to assume that something's wrong with Vendetta. 

Indeed.  Does anyone know what he says if you don't interrupt him with Paragon or Renegade?  I did the base againbut pressed it instinctively whoops.

[DoomsdayDevice]

@ starlitegirlx:

Even though the 'SO BE IT' voice is just Mark Meer's, that doesn't necessarily mean the child isn't Harbinger.

For one, just the fact that his voice changes is an indication that he's just posing as this innocent little kid. He clearly drops his guise for a second, and it's obvious he's actually something else.

I think the simple reason it's not Harbinger's voice is that it would immediately clue Shepard in and break the illusion.

Think about it, revealing the kid to be Harbinger would confirm IT.

[MegumiAzusa]

TSA_383 wrote...

I had a post on the clevernoob forums that I thought would be relevant here:

So, a lot of discussion on the boards concerns ways that the reapers could be defeated with or without the crucible. It doesn't take much common sense to realise that in a battle against every reaper, the combined forces of shepard's little intergalactic fleet would be wiped out.

But what if you didn't have to fight every reaper?

My theory is this:

1-The "catalyst" AI was created by the Leviathans, at which point it created Harbinger and installed itself onto that platform.
2-It uses the Harbinger platform, with its control abilities inherited from the Leviathans used to produce it, to control the other reapers as well as to indoctrinate other life forms. There was some cut dialog from the derelict reaper in ME2 which suggests that reapers are essentially incapable of independent thought whilst in contact with the rest of their force.
3-Therefore, it would seem to be entirely plausible that destroying Harbinger would be all that was required to stop them. The fleet can't take down every reaper, but could they take down Harbinger? Perhaps.

In the post EC & Leviathan endings, it seems fairly obvious that the AI is controlling (and therefore effectively "is" for the purposes of argument) Harbinger, attempting to take control of Shepard.
My theory is that Shepard's resistance will somehow weaken Harbinger, allowing the fleets to attack and destroy it, thereby eliminating the AI's control of the other Reaper platforms and effectively stopping the harvest.

Thoughts?

I cannot agree. I guess the text the post was talking about was

It was lonely.
It called to us.
It wanted to remember.

The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.

Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.

We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.

Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.
We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.

We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.

Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.

They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.

Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest.

Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather.

Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too.

As you can see it doesn't refer to other reapers but parts of it.
"The Masters were lost when it was shattered.
Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow. ..."
These lines state that it's the machine component talking about the organic component of the Reaper.

"They were called imshai. Those who lived here before."
They are even named, the species which became this specific Reaper. It's the synthesis the Guardian was talking about. The other lines also indicate that the machine longs for organics to be together and share. The personality is also mixed with the organics it has already absorbed.

"We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.
Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution."
This is for me a clear expression of the new consciousness, and how it still looks for the end, or the apex, of evolution.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:54 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Davik Kang wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
I think it's a perfectly good reason to assume that something's wrong with Vendetta. 

Indeed.  Does anyone know what he says if you don't interrupt him with Paragon or Renegade?  I did the base againbut pressed it instinctively whoops.

I don't know, I always do the paragon interrupts.

The Reaper horn gives me chills though.

Literalists always use Vendetta as 'proof' that Shepard isn't indoctrinated, because he only shuts down when Kai Leng arrives, but the Reaper horn when Shepard senses the beacon really suggests Vendetta might be tainted.

That bit about the Reapers not being the masters of the pattern, it's just the perfect little thing that sets up the indoctrination attempt at the end.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 24 octobre 2012 - 01:56 .

[Davik Kang]

demersel wrote...
I'd like to say one thing - if you remember my post that started my "TIM is a repaer speculation" - i posted a few pictures - was asked - what is the big deal, and replayed - TIM is reaper, and that by extension gives us the galaxy being just space chess. 

No the core to this idea was that there are many reapers. They are all sentiend and alive and independent. They are like the very elite club. So what do they do between the cycles? What if they play chess or Risk, or Civilization or Masters Of Orion, but with real civilizations in a real galaxy - after each harvest - the board is reset, each reaper (or just some of them) pick up a race the oversee - and the new cycle starts - basicly it means that each race has an overseeing reaper, that guides it, while harbinger is more like club president - oversees the entire thing and gets to decide who joins the club next. But besides the reapers there are other forces at work - and they want to break their game, and get rid of the reaper - they sabotage the galaxy - like the leviathans. Possibly - there are even others - like some synthetic race, that lives in the dark space and have no interest in the galaxy, except that they don't like it being there at all, but can't really do anything as long as reapers are around...

These ideas are pretty interesting and may well turn out to be true.  The hard part is finding evidence for them.  We need to find enough in-game evidence to support the stuff we think so that it becomes a reasonable interpretation.
 And I don't think one person can do this alone, which is why I'm hoping we can get enough people to work togteher and figure all this out.

[Ghrelt]

@demersel, I believe that reaping is all that the Reapers do. How many other galaxies do they do this to? And how long does it take to travel between galaxies? I think they work together to maintain themselves as the "pinnacle of evolution". They harvest species after they've advanced far enough to create artificial intelligence, but not far enough for the AI's to be able to challenge the Reapers.