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[demersel]

Davik Kang wrote...

demersel wrote...
TIM wants to uplift Humanity. But he doesn't want to let harbinger do it. Yet he uses all the same nethods. AND in ME3 the reapers already use cerberus's research. Not in ME2. What changed? We destroyed the derelict reaper.

This is really important too, because: Cerberus use Reaper tech.  They steal the tech of their enemy to use it against them.  Who else does this?  We do.  EDI steals Eva's body.  The Systems Allaince use the re-built Shepard.  The VI says we need to use the Citadel, which we already know is Reaper tech.  

And the bits of human Reaper in the Cerberus base, the 'abomination'.  What do we do with it?  Hackett steals it and uses it to improve the Crucible.  Homestly, I think this war is more than just a good vs evil fight, it's a big time power struggle.

That i agree completely with.  And System's Allience is fishy! Remember - cerberus used to be only part of the allince. and then it went rogue. I think that is exaclty what happened, but on a bigger scale - whateever is a force behind TIM (or pretending to be TIM, I honeslty think that TIm is not a puppet for the force but rather a force itself) - he used to together with the force that is behind the systems allience but - went rogue.

If every race is guided and overseen by the reapers - (like the salarians clearly are) - then TIM is a rogue reaper, that for some reason changed his goals and the way it thinks) - and we do find such a thing - darelict reaper that is damaged and abendoned. (and it's core shines blue, same colour blue as TIM's eyes.) 
The darelict reaper got damaged (broken) - stopped thinking as a reaper, got in contact with Jack Harper - and started to think like a human. While still being a reaper! Humans are an anomaly - because they can do that! Harbinger got interested and decided to make an experiment. 

TIM sacrificed himself - allowed you to destroy him - so you can stop harbinger. What was left was but a shell of his former self. (easy for the reapers to take control of - it was prepped for that after all)

[Davik Kang]

starlitegirlx wrote...
Okay so if I was wrong that the brat is harbinger, I'm still sticking with it sounding like a reaper. Like the one we hear on rannoch and the the one that says something like 'help us' before you go into the beam. It has that horn and heavy reverberation to it. That, to me, is a reaper like sound. Whenever we have heard reapers, which hasn't been often, they have had that sound. So I'll still stick with the child illusion AI is not the catalyst and that it lies. Maybe shepard is the catalyst. My reasoning there is still because there's nothing left that could be a catalyst once in the citadel unless we are never in the citadel.

It could be the Harbinger though.  I don't necessarily think so, but look at the text in the Codex for Reaper types.  The fourth one is called PROCESSOR, and is where a Reaper is made.  It has no sentience but is controlled by a nearby Reaper.  So if the ending is remotely real, then the Kid could be a representation of Harbinger talking to Shepard, as it controls the Processor that is the Citadel.

[demersel]

Davik Kang wrote...
These ideas are pretty interesting and may well turn out to be true.  The hard part is finding evidence for them.  We need to find enough in-game evidence to support the stuff we think so that it becomes a reasonable interpretation.
 And I don't think one person can do this alone, which is why I'm hoping we can get enough people to work togteher and figure all this out.

Before we start looking for evidence - we need to set our story straight - if noly for the fact so we know what to look for as evidence.

[Jusseb]

The evidence of somethings might just be revealed in the upcoming DLC. Bioware is the 'manager' of that.

[Davik Kang]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

It was lonely.
It called to us.
It wanted to remember.

The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.

Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.

We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.

Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.
We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.

We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.

Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.

They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.

Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest.

Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather.

Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too.

Was this ever out in the game?  If so, where? Or was it just cut content from ME2?

It ties into another thing I'm looking at.  Specifically, how everybody usesd indoctrination, not just the Reapers.  The thing you highlighted on the Citadel showed me how Asari use indoctrination.

What I am getting as is how the various racesa and individuals get peolpe to do stuff for them.  This ia the heart of the galactic power struggle.  Indoctrination takes it to an extreme, but is still just another way of getting people to do stuff for you.  

And IRL, indoctrination is something that militaries use to control their soldiers.  Look specifically at how marines are trained.  They are indoctrinated to follow orders.  And do not dscount that we are marines in ME.  Indoctrination as a theme is much deeper than just something the Reapers do.

About Shepard.  Shepard is very interesting to TIM, Leviathan and the Reapers as well as others because she can indoctrinate people herself.  ME3 is about Shepard getting the whole galaxy to follow her into the Reaper's mouth.  Everyone follows her to the harvest.  IMO this is no coincedence and it is at the heart of understanding Priority Earth, the ending, IT, and the whole of Mass Effect.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:14 .

[Jusseb]

The evidence of somethings might just be revealed in the upcoming DLC's. Bioware decides when they want to show us the evidence.

[Davik Kang]

Jusseb wrote...
The evidence of somethings might just be revealed in the upcoming DLC's. Bioware decides when they want to show us the evidence.

I completely agree, but I also think the evidence for much of this stuff is already there.  Just more difficult to find.

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...
These ideas are pretty interesting and may well turn out to be true.  The hard part is finding evidence for them.  We need to find enough in-game evidence to support the stuff we think so that it becomes a reasonable interpretation.
 And I don't think one person can do this alone, which is why I'm hoping we can get enough people to work togteher and figure all this out.

Before we start looking for evidence - we need to set our story straight - if noly for the fact so we know what to look for as evidence.

You cannot find something that is never hinted at.

[MegumiAzusa]

Davik Kang wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

It was lonely.
It called to us.
It wanted to remember.

The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.

Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.

We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.

Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.
We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.

We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.

Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.

They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.

Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest.

Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather.

Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too.

Was this ever out in the game?  If so, where? Or was it just cut content from ME2?

It ties into another thing I'm looking at.  Specifically, how everybody usesd indoctrination, not just the Reapers.  The thing you highlighted on the Citadel showed me how Asari use indoctrination.

What I am getting as is how the various racesa and individuals get peolpe to do stuff for them.  This ia the heart of the galactic power struggle.  Indoctrination takes it to an extreme, but is still just another way of getting people to do stuff for you.  

And IRL, indoctrination is something that militaries use to control their soldiers.  Look specifically at how marines are trained.  They are indoctrinated to follow orders.  And do not dscount that we are marines in ME.  Indoctrination as a theme is much deeper than just something the Reapers do.

About Shepard.  Shepard is very interesting to TIM, Leviathan and the Reapers as well as others because she can indoctrinate people herself.  ME3 is about Shepard getting the whole galaxy to follow her into the Reaper's mouth.  Everyone follows her to the harvest.  IMO this is no coincedence and it is at the heart of understanding Priority Earth, the ending, IT, and the whole of Mass Effect.

It's cut content.
But I cannot agree on everyone using indoctrination for their own. The consort and the attendants are controlled, not vice versa.

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...
[...] (like the salarians clearly are) [...]

Show me one bit that expressively shows that.

[Davik Kang]

demersel wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...
These ideas are pretty interesting and may well turn out to be true.  The hard part is finding evidence for them.  We need to find enough in-game evidence to support the stuff we think so that it becomes a reasonable interpretation.
 And I don't think one person can do this alone, which is why I'm hoping we can get enough people to work togteher and figure all this out.

Before we start looking for evidence - we need to set our story straight - if noly for the fact so we know what to look for as evidence.

Unfortunately I don't think  that's possible.  We need to find evidence for various things, come up with ideas, and see if we can support them.  If you already decide what you want to prove then you'll only look at evidence that supports it.

What I'm looking for is the truth, not to support some preconceived idea.  So we need to look at in-game stufff and then think about what it might imply.  Then look for further evidence that may back up or refute the idea.

Preferences have to be left at the door.  We can't find what we want to find, we have to find what's actually there.  That's why I need a new thread cos I can't do that in the IT thread.  The IT thread should be all about IT and promoting IT.

[Davik Kang]

starlitegirlx wrote...
Refusal lets the reapers win as witnessed by Liara's capsule device. Kind of weird that the voice would be pissed when it just won unless it wanted shepard to make one of the choices offered rather than none of them. So is destroy also some kind of illusion? Maybe it doesn't get mad because it can still try to indoctrinate again, like a never ending cycle of illusions if shepard keeps trying to kill the reapers. The 'So be it' actually adds more questions when you think about it. Why does whatever that thing is get mad at that choice but not at destroy?

Is it possible that the Kid's voice could be Leviathan's?  Are we indoctrinated by the Leviathan and not a Reaper?  This would explain why Destroy is shwon as an option.  Also why Refuse disppoints the Kid.

Could the Normandy Drive Core be a Leviathan control object?  It's a very big sphere right?  I know this is pretty speculative but it would be somehting we could look into.  Drive Core also looks a lot like the Reaper btw.

Are there any other objects near the end that could be a source of Leviathan control?

[demersel]

Davik Kang wrote...
snip

Ok. 

[demersel]

Davik Kang wrote...

Is it possible that the Kid's voice could be Leviathan's?  Are we indoctrinated by the Leviathan and not a Reaper?  This would explain why Destroy is shwon as an option.  Also why Refuse disppoints the Kid.

If the kid was Leviathna - why would he picture destroy as the worts possible option? Why would he say that he controls the reapers? No. 

[Davik Kang]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
It's cut content.
But I cannot agree on everyone using indoctrination for their own. The consort and the attendants are controlled, not vice versa.

Indoctrination is a thing IRL.  It's not something invented by the Reapers.  I was just drawing the parallel between getting people to do your bidding or join you, and indoctrinating them.

Note that when the Consort asks you to do something, she rubs her cheek against yours.  Note that on the Shadow Broker vids, while other races punch Al-Jilani (like Shepard), the Asari being interviewed hugs her and rubs her face against her.

I'm just saying it's possible.  Attandants certainly seem controlled - the Consort, I'm not so sure.  And if she is being controlled, by whom?  The Reapers?  And if so, specifiaclly why?  For what purpose?  A general purpose of influencing the powerful and wealthy on the Citadel is a bit vague.  How do the Reapers benefit specifically?  Could this be the Asari way fo maintaining control of the Council?  They are the oldest race and the most gifted politically (i.e. in convincing people to do what they want).

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...
[...] (like the salarians clearly are) [...]

Show me one bit that expressively shows that.

First you answer my question about what happens to cronos station. 

[Davik Kang]

demersel wrote...
If the kid was Leviathna - why would he picture destroy as the worts possible option? Why would he say that he controls the reapers? No. 

About Destroy, I think he'd rather his army of doom survived,  But about the control thing - good point.  Was just a random thought really.

[Vibez]

A little OT, but it seems we're one step closer to produce real "Medi Gel":

Link http://engineering.ucsb.edu/news/664

Modifié par Vibez, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:36 .

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...
[...] (like the salarians clearly are) [...]

Show me one bit that expressively shows that.

First you answer my question about what happens to cronos station.

No idea what you're talking about and what you are getting at.

[DoomsdayDevice]

starlitegirlx wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

@ starlitegirlx:

Even though the 'SO BE IT' voice is just Mark Meer's, that doesn't necessarily mean the child isn't Harbinger.

For one, just the fact that his voice changes is an indication that he's just posing as this innocent little kid. He clearly drops his guise for a second, and it's obvious he's actually something else.

I think the simple reason it's not Harbinger's voice is that it would immediately clue Shepard in and break the illusion.

Think about it, revealing the kid to be Harbinger would confirm IT.

But then doesn't having the voice change to something that to me sounds a lot like a reaper also support IT. Or the fact that the voice changes AT ALL supports IT. It alludes to the fact that this AI that has been posing as a child may not be anything but an indoctrination attempt that lies and manipulates. There's nothing else that makes sense. If the voice changes in one choice, then the representation as a child AI is a lie which holds across all choices because the child is the same, it's just the response that is different.

I agree, the voice changing to a Reaper voice does support IT, however, when I confronted literalists with this, they were just like 'Well duh, he's a Reaper AI, he just gets mad because you don't want to help find a solution'.

starlitegirlx wrote...

Oh wait, just had a thought. If the AI representation gets pissed with a refusal but not with destroy, then that implies that there is something amiss with destroy. Refusal is outright rejection of the illusion as a whole one could argue. "I'm not playing this game'" sort of thing. With Destroy, you do play along. But you also come out of the illusions. But why does it not trigger the same kind of anger from whatever reaper type thing was playing the AI? That always bugged me. You would think destroy would ****** it off equally. So why doesn't it? Especially if it is about to be destroyed or you are about to break out of the illusion. Is this lazy writing, a clue, or what? It makes no sense that destroy doesn't trigger anger unless we're not looking closely at refusal and destroy and we're missing something.

Refusal lets the reapers win as witnessed by Liara's capsule device. Kind of weird that the voice would be pissed when it just won unless it wanted shepard to make one of the choices offered rather than none of them. So is destroy also some kind of illusion? Maybe it doesn't get mad because it can still try to indoctrinate again, like a never ending cycle of illusions if shepard keeps trying to kill the reapers. The 'So be it' actually adds more questions when you think about it. Why does whatever that thing is get mad at that choice but not at destroy?

I firmly believe (ever since Leviathan established Reapers can build complicated illusions from your memories) that Shepard isn't actually on the Citadel. It is all a mental battle inside Shepard's mind. Especially because when Shepard zaps onto the Citadel, the sound effect that plays is the exact same sound effect that is used in Leviathan when going in and out of the mind control.

So, even when you shoot the tube in destroy, everything you see is just an illusion. Shepard wasn't on the Citadel. The crucible wasn't even used.

So, if you pick destroy, the child is not going to go 'OHNOZ' because that would instantly give away IT, and reveal that he doesn't want you to do that. The illusion is that all three endings are legit, so having the child go nuts in destroy would instantly reveal IT. The fact that he gets mad in refuse is simply because he's frustrated in a  "You could have been useful, Shepard." kind of way.

I am thinking that the three choices, as presented to Shepard, are reversed. The Reaper AI is asking you if you:

1. Want to be controlled (brainwashed, sleeper agent, etc.)
2. Want to be synthesized (upgraded with Reaper tech, like Saren and TIM and the Collectors, or perhaps even become part of a Reaper)
3. Want to be destroyed

I came to this conclusion because of Harbinger's line in the Retaliation trailer. (See my signature)

The outcome is inevitable. They will succumb (ctrl) and ascend (synth).... or they will be annihilated (destroy).

Now, choosing destroy is the least favourable to the Reapers, because it would mean they couldn't use you, but more importantly, it would also mean you would resists indoctrination, because you stick to your plan and still intend to destroy the Reapers.

My guess is that if the indoctrination attempt fails, you would normally die. Your mind would be destroyed. The only reason Shepard survives this in high EMS is because (s)he's got an extraordinary amount of willpower (which is illustrated by the amount of war assets you managed to get together).

I don't believe there will actually be post-breath scene content. I would like it, but I don't believe in it.

I think we are meant to believe that we won by beating the Reapers' ultimate weapon: indoctrination.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:43 .

[Davik Kang]

starlitegirlx wrote...
I don't think shepard indoctrinated. I think shepard inspired. In all of ME2 shepard is just asking people to join. They choose to for their own personal reasons. Shepard doesn't even pick the people. And not one of them does anything but fight against the reapers in ME3 so they are not indoctrinated. In ME3, shepard tries to get forces to save earth but with each step it becomes a bigger undertaking because he/she has to now stop the genophage and the geth. Nothing there points to indoctrination. 

In what I'm saying, you have to divorce the idea of indoctrination from the Reapers.  If Shepard is indoctrinating people, it is to her side.  'Inspiring' people could be seen as another form of indoctrination.  This is why I'm trying to highlght the idea of getting people to do what you want.  Indcotrination is one method.  But there are others.  It is a special kind of power.

The council are made up of Turian Salarian and Asari who represent 3 kinds of power.  Military might/discipline, knowledge/intelligence, and wealth/persuasion.  This makes the council a force strong enough to get people to ally to its cause.

I wonder if this is why it's called Mass Effect?  An object with more mass in space draws other objects to it, and in turn becomes more massive.  The Council is massive enough, as are the Reapers.  I wonder if Shepard is somehow also (metaphorically speaking) massive enough despite being just one person?  In this way Shepard is an incredible source of power.

Unforunately all this speculating is getting in the way of the first post (whoops).  I am more trying to gather in-game evidence for stuff.  Maybe there is just too much.  I'll give it a go though.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...
[...] (like the salarians clearly are) [...]

Show me one bit that expressively shows that.

First you answer my question about what happens to cronos station. 

Never expressively said, but Hacket is already hitting it with the big guns and when he asks the fleet to hold back, Shepard tells him to continue, to wipe the station out.

As to why it is never said directly...we are about to hit Earth, **** is going down and what happened to Cronos is completely irrelevant in light of the massive fleet we are bringing to Earth.

Still though given that Hacket is allready shooting at the station and Shepard tells him to continue I think it is a pretty safe bet what happened to Cronos.

[GriM_AoD]

A hallucination? It IS possible.
But if bioware roll with it is a whole different issue.