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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#39026
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BatmanTurian wrote...

jojon2se wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
...
You do realize that a piece of literature can infer something and not come out and say it.
...


Go back a page or two, and you'll find yourself rather aggressively lambasting people, for not corroborating their ideas with solid empirical evidence. You are not really contradicting yourself, but one could be forgiven for detecting a slight self-bias and lack of empathy.

Point out to people when their argument falter, by all means, but try to do it by reasoning with them -- a confrontative tone will inevitably trigger an instinctive, defensive response and then you'll never get through - more likely you'll risk finding yourself vitrifying and becoming just as unreasonable and close minded as you see them (EDIT: ...and coming to see them that way and becoming annoyed, would be a symptom of that - raise warning flags  :P).
That's an important part of what I, for my part, take away from the NYTimes article you posted.

As you can see; I'm lousy at this myself. :P


Well, it was 4 in the morning and I wasn't thinking clearly. As for solid empirical evidence, that doesn't always necessarily apply in literature, because the Author really does infer things without coming out and saying it, such as Joker's sister at Tiptree being turned into a husk.


Where and when is this conversation taking place. I've seen in mentioned and want to see it in game, but I always miss it or can't find it.

#39027
Davik Kang

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starlitegirlx wrote...
Part of the difficulty of including too much of ME1 or ME2 into IT is knowing that Dark Energy was the way they were going until it was leaked. Then they changed it. So you have to tread cautiously with anything you include pre ME3 regarding IT beyond elements that are specific to IT because the path changed. Looking at facts to make them fit IT pre ME3 is a risky proposition unless they are very overt and don't simply fall into some other category like war causes militaries to grow and nations to prosper.

Ok thanks I'll bear that in mind.  Abuot dark energy, what was leaked?  Cos as I said a few pages ago, the Vendetta VI says that the Catalyst enhances dark energy transmissions and coordinates the mass relay network.  So dark energy is defeinitely involved in the Crucible ending somewhat.

Sorry about the delay with the Hackett stuff, I'm trying to cook and write at the same time.  Neb thx for the Hackett mirror thing (what do you mean exactly btw?)

#39028
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Personally, I believe IT is actually what is happening but only for the people that play the game at that level where we have paid attention to details and conversations. There is more than enough evidence in game to support it. The Leviathan conversation as well as the addition of the voice in the 'so be it' refusal response are probably all you need. Themes also lead to it if you reason your way through them. You'd have to be dense as a rock to not see that there are parallels between meddling with the natural order of life and synthesis (genophage) and then having Salarians tell you they prefer the natural order. They hand you the don't choose synthesis option. And then you've got the quarians at war with the geth because they couldn't control them. They feared losing control then went to war with them by sending out a general order and spent 300 years homeless floating around in space like a lost cause because they wanted to have children they could keep on a leash. Again, dense as a rock if you can't see that screams that you should not try to control machines which is exactly what the control option is.

Then you have all the conversations with EDI who would choose death and says she would choose to be destroyed if it saved Jeff among other things.

As an ITer, I have all the evidence I need. Do not choose synthesis. Do not choose control. Best options are destroy or reject. Either way though the reapers seem to keep doing what they are doing but at least I'm not under reaper control. Ah well, hopefully my shepard has a quick death in london after breaking free of indoctrination attempts.

Evidence wise, I don't need anymore. What I have is a fair mountain already. Story wise, I'd like for my shepard to not be dead on the planet with reapers ending everything, but I know that won't happen.

#39029
Big_Boss9

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starlitegirlx wrote...

Where and when is this conversation taking place. I've seen in mentioned and want to see it in game, but I always miss it or can't find it.

Asari patient at Huerta Memorial on the Citadel. Listen to the whole conversation.

#39030
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http://www.strategyi...ffect-3-endings

Dark Energy ending. Scrapped.

#39031
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Big_Boss9 wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Where and when is this conversation taking place. I've seen in mentioned and want to see it in game, but I always miss it or can't find it.

Asari patient at Huerta Memorial on the Citadel. Listen to the whole conversation.


When in the game and where? In the hospital or the lounge?

#39032
NebuchadnezzaRT

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Lounge area directly across from Thane (or where he would be) to the right as soon as you exit the elevator, next to the window

As far as I know the conversation starts up as soon as you get there from Mars. You can advance throughtout the whole conversation by conversing with Avina and then going back to them, activating dialogue. You will have reached he end of their dialogue arc when you get an option at the Spectre terminal to give the patient a gun.

Check out the link posted below

Modifié par NebuchadnezzaRT, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:05 .


#39033
Big_Boss9

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starlitegirlx wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Where and when is this conversation taking place. I've seen in mentioned and want to see it in game, but I always miss it or can't find it.

Asari patient at Huerta Memorial on the Citadel. Listen to the whole conversation.


When in the game and where? In the hospital or the lounge?

In the entrance hall/lounge area as soon as the Citadel is available. If you don't want to wait for in-game, here's the whole convo --

#39034
jojon2se

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starlitegirlx wrote...
When in the game and where? In the hospital or the lounge?


Behind the reception desk wall, thoughout the game.

The therapy session will proceed one short exchange, of many, every time you make an area transition, so if you want to hear it all in one go; be prepared to run a lot between the location and either the exit or the infirmary. :P
(When you've heard it through to the end, a Spectre authorisation option will be added)
EDIT: Lots of people answering. :)

Modifié par jojon2se, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:16 .


#39035
Davik Kang

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Big_Boss9 wrote...
In the entrance hall/lounge area as soon as the Citadel is available. If you don't want to wait for in-game, here's the whole convo --

Thanks for this.

starlitegirlx wrote...
http://www.strategyi...ffect-3-endings
Dark Energy ending. Scrapped.

Thank you.  So it seems the Reapers were in a race against time to process humans.  The story like that - seems odd that the Reapers would need humans to figure it out.  

Instead they came up with another reason why the Reapers were actually trying to save life.  They come across more badass this way so it's probably better.  It's also easier to interpert their logic as being flawed this way.  And it's clear  aterrible choice was present as the ending in the first place too.

#39036
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Big_Boss9 wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Where and when is this conversation taking place. I've seen in mentioned and want to see it in game, but I always miss it or can't find it.

Asari patient at Huerta Memorial on the Citadel. Listen to the whole conversation.


When in the game and where? In the hospital or the lounge?

In the entrance hall/lounge area as soon as the Citadel is available. If you don't want to wait for in-game, here's the whole convo --


I always heard the opening part about showering but never stopped to listen to the whole thing. Gotta give them points for how awesomely well that was done.

So did all asari turn into banshees? I know turians are murauders. Batarian's were Cannibals. Humans are husks (and even they were back in ME1 - was that a pre reaper invasion?) I know some were from Cerberus another others Sovereign/geth but I wonder if it was just those two?

What were the Salarians turned into? Were they ever turned? Hmmm? Confused now. Maurauders. Husks. Cannibals. Banshees. Ravengers were rachni so what the hell were the salarians?

#39037
jojon2se

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BatmanTurian wrote...
...
...such as Joker's sister at Tiptree being turned into a husk.


Well, she was spared that indignity, at least - the end of the thing is that T'Goni killed her (so that her crying wouldn't give away their presence).

#39038
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Davik Kang wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...
In the entrance hall/lounge area as soon as the Citadel is available. If you don't want to wait for in-game, here's the whole convo --

Thanks for this.

starlitegirlx wrote...
http://www.strategyi...ffect-3-endings
Dark Energy ending. Scrapped.

Thank you.  So it seems the Reapers were in a race against time to process humans.  The story like that - seems odd that the Reapers would need humans to figure it out.  

Instead they came up with another reason why the Reapers were actually trying to save life.  They come across more badass this way so it's probably better.  It's also easier to interpert their logic as being flawed this way.  And it's clear  aterrible choice was present as the ending in the first place too.


I don't know. I think it became more convoluted and the reapers actually, while still being bad, would have had a sensible purpose - to stop dark energy. I like the idea that they seem like your enemy but aren't truly your enemy because dark energy would destroy everything. Then preservation of life would make sense. Likely they would have had nothing to do with the relays because that only came up in ME3 but not before that. In ME1 did we know that they built the citadel or was it just that they used the citadel keepers?

They should have stuck with the dark energy ending. The choice would have made more sense and the sacrafice would have been a difficult moral choice which actually was inline with the whole game rather than what we got. I don't know why they cared if it was leaked. So people know why and what the choice will be. Big deal.

#39039
demersel

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I firmly believe (ever since Leviathan established Reapers can build complicated illusions from your memories) that Shepard isn't actually on the Citadel. It is all a mental battle inside Shepard's mind. Especially because when Shepard zaps onto the Citadel, the sound effect that plays is the exact same sound effect that is used in Leviathan when going in and out of the mind control.

So, even when you shoot the tube in destroy, everything you see is just an illusion. Shepard wasn't on the Citadel. The crucible wasn't even used.

So, if you pick destroy, the child is not going to go 'OHNOZ' because that would instantly give away IT, and reveal that he doesn't want you to do that. The illusion is that all three endings are legit, so having the child go nuts in destroy would instantly reveal IT. The fact that he gets mad in refuse is simply because he's frustrated in a  "You could have been useful, Shepard." kind of way.

I am thinking that the three choices, as presented to Shepard, are reversed. The Reaper AI is asking you if you:

1. Want to be controlled (brainwashed, sleeper agent, etc.)
2. Want to be synthesized (upgraded with Reaper tech, like Saren and TIM and the Collectors, or perhaps even become part of a Reaper)
3. Want to be destroyed

I came to this conclusion because of Harbinger's line in the Retaliation trailer. (See my signature)

The outcome is inevitable. They will succumb (ctrl) and ascend (synth).... or they will be annihilated (destroy).

Now, choosing destroy is the least favourable to the Reapers, because it would mean they couldn't use you, but more importantly, it would also mean you would resists indoctrination, because you stick to your plan and still intend to destroy the Reapers.

My guess is that if the indoctrination attempt fails, you would normally die. Your mind would be destroyed. The only reason Shepard survives this in high EMS is because (s)he's got an extraordinary amount of willpower (which is illustrated by the amount of war assets you managed to get together).

I don't believe there will actually be post-breath scene content. I would like it, but I don't believe in it.

I think we are meant to believe that we won by beating the Reapers' ultimate weapon: indoctrination.


I always read your walls of text ;)

I think that the same thing. About the three endings - the choice is actually reversed - It is like - "so, know when wer're here, what are we going to do with you?" 

And refuse is Shepard mumbling - and Harbinger going like "Hmm....I can always use one more  husk... I spend two games on slow, patient delicate indoctrination, but i Always can force it, and turn you into a gibbering animal.
**** it - husk it is!"

#39040
Davik Kang

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starlitegirlx wrote...
What were the Salarians turned into? Were they ever turned? Hmmm? Confused now. Maurauders. Husks. Cannibals. Banshees. Ravengers were rachni so what the hell were the salarians?

Not all the races ahve representatives.  Bill Casey had a thread which highlighted some of the concept art for Salarians by fans.  Perhaps Salarians are considered too physically fragile.

Note that there aren't any Krogans either - the Brutes are a meld of Krogan and Turian.

#39041
Raistlin Majare 1992

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starlitegirlx wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Where and when is this conversation taking place. I've seen in mentioned and want to see it in game, but I always miss it or can't find it.

Asari patient at Huerta Memorial on the Citadel. Listen to the whole conversation.


When in the game and where? In the hospital or the lounge?

In the entrance hall/lounge area as soon as the Citadel is available. If you don't want to wait for in-game, here's the whole convo --


I always heard the opening part about showering but never stopped to listen to the whole thing. Gotta give them points for how awesomely well that was done.

So did all asari turn into banshees? I know turians are murauders. Batarian's were Cannibals. Humans are husks (and even they were back in ME1 - was that a pre reaper invasion?) I know some were from Cerberus another others Sovereign/geth but I wonder if it was just those two?

What were the Salarians turned into? Were they ever turned? Hmmm? Confused now. Maurauders. Husks. Cannibals. Banshees. Ravengers were rachni so what the hell were the salarians?


No only Ardat Yakshe turn into Banshees, dont know what happens to normal Asari.

As for Salarians no idea. Probably the in game reason for not seeing huskified Salarians is that the Reapers hit Salarian space as the last, meaning not many Salarians have probably been converted yet by the time of the Earth assault making encounter improbable.

#39042
Davik Kang

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starlitegirlx wrote...
They should have stuck with the dark energy ending. The choice would have made more sense and the sacrafice would have been a difficult moral choice which actually was inline with the whole game rather than what we got. I don't know why they cared if it was leaked. So people know why and what the choice will be. Big deal. 

Did they actually say why they scrapped it though?  Maybe they couldn't get it to work in the story.  It might have been that they decided the current story is better.

#39043
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Davik Kang wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
What were the Salarians turned into? Were they ever turned? Hmmm? Confused now. Maurauders. Husks. Cannibals. Banshees. Ravengers were rachni so what the hell were the salarians?

Not all the races ahve representatives.  Bill Casey had a thread which highlighted some of the concept art for Salarians by fans.  Perhaps Salarians are considered too physically fragile.

Note that there aren't any Krogans either - the Brutes are a meld of Krogan and Turian.


Brutes were strange. Why mix the two? Always thought that one was weird, though it had a strange irony given that turians helped with the genophage.

#39044
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Davik Kang wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
They should have stuck with the dark energy ending. The choice would have made more sense and the sacrafice would have been a difficult moral choice which actually was inline with the whole game rather than what we got. I don't know why they cared if it was leaked. So people know why and what the choice will be. Big deal. 

Did they actually say why they scrapped it though?  Maybe they couldn't get it to work in the story.  It might have been that they decided the current story is better.


Because it was leaked. Yep. Asses.

#39045
jojon2se

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Cannibals, too, are hybrids: batarian and human.

#39046
Davik Kang

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starlitegirlx wrote...
Because it was leaked. Yep. Asses.

I had a look and this isn't indicated.  All they said is it had been changed since.  They didn't say it was changed because of the leak.  Drew even said that the original ending was mainly about the Reapers and Mass Relays:

http://www.oxm.co.uk...before-release/

#39047
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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

No only Ardat Yakshe turn into Banshees, dont know what happens to normal Asari.

As for Salarians no idea. Probably the in game reason for not seeing huskified Salarians is that the Reapers hit Salarian space as the last, meaning not many Salarians have probably been converted yet by the time of the Earth assault making encounter improbable.


That just occurred to me about the asari and salarians. They were safe until almost the end.

Batarians and humans and turians were first. I'm not sure how they got to the krogans other than krogans were mercs and spread around the system so they picked them up along the way which is probably why there were so few until turchunka which had a fair amount of them.

Modifié par starlitegirlx, 24 octobre 2012 - 06:48 .


#39048
MegumiAzusa

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Davik Kang wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
http://www.strategyi...ffect-3-endings
Dark Energy ending. Scrapped.

Thank you.  So it seems the Reapers were in a race against time to process humans.  The story like that - seems odd that the Reapers would need humans to figure it out.  

Instead they came up with another reason why the Reapers were actually trying to save life.  They come across more badass this way so it's probably better.  It's also easier to interpert their logic as being flawed this way.  And it's clear  aterrible choice was present as the ending in the first place too.

I wouldn't have liked that, even if hinted at, it just was too little. I like the ending now much more as it makes much more sense. It also makes no sense as the article said the Reapers only now are running out of time but why they wiped out the Protheans so violently? It's just contradictory to what we see in the games.

#39049
NebuchadnezzaRT

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starlitegirlx wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
They should have stuck with the dark energy ending. The choice would have made more sense and the sacrafice would have been a difficult moral choice which actually was inline with the whole game rather than what we got. I don't know why they cared if it was leaked. So people know why and what the choice will be. Big deal. 

Did they actually say why they scrapped it though?  Maybe they couldn't get it to work in the story.  It might have been that they decided the current story is better.


Because it was leaked. Yep. Asses.


Just going to throw out there that I thought the original Dark Energy ending was stupid.

If the Reapers really wanted to stop the acceleration of DE in the Universe/Galaxy then why not stop and ask? Why spend all that time converting beings into Reapers when you could have spent that time cleaning up the DE or devising technology to halt it.

"You exist because we allow it. You will end because we demand it." Bioware will never be able to remove that line. The Reapers will always be the enemy, always unknowable. At least, to me B)

Besides the DE ending has its own seperate list of plot holes and ramificaztions that were never addressed prevvviously  in  the series.   It  was a goal invented halfway through Mass Effect 2 that was dropped before Mass Effect 3 even came out, not because of the leak but because the writer who came up with the story arc and championed it left Bioware.

#39050
byne

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starlitegirlx wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
What were the Salarians turned into? Were they ever turned? Hmmm? Confused now. Maurauders. Husks. Cannibals. Banshees. Ravengers were rachni so what the hell were the salarians?

Not all the races ahve representatives.  Bill Casey had a thread which highlighted some of the concept art for Salarians by fans.  Perhaps Salarians are considered too physically fragile.

Note that there aren't any Krogans either - the Brutes are a meld of Krogan and Turian.


Brutes were strange. Why mix the two? Always thought that one was weird, though it had a strange irony given that turians helped with the genophage.


I still think Brutes were originally meant to be a mix between Yahg and Turians, not Krogan and Turians.

Brutes dont have tails like Krogan do, they have regular butts like Yahg.

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