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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#39051
Guest_starlitegirlx_*

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NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
They should have stuck with the dark energy ending. The choice would have made more sense and the sacrafice would have been a difficult moral choice which actually was inline with the whole game rather than what we got. I don't know why they cared if it was leaked. So people know why and what the choice will be. Big deal. 

Did they actually say why they scrapped it though?  Maybe they couldn't get it to work in the story.  It might have been that they decided the current story is better.


Because it was leaked. Yep. Asses.


Just going to throw out there that I thought the original Dark Energy ending was stupid.

If the Reapers really wanted to stop the acceleration of DE in the Universe/Galaxy then why not stop and ask? Why spend all that time converting beings into Reapers when you could have spent that time cleaning up the DE or devising technology to halt it.

"You exist because we allow it. You will end because we demand it." Bioware will never be able to remove that line. The Reapers will always be the enemy, always unknowable. At least, to me B)

Besides the DE ending has its own seperate list of plot holes and ramificaztions that were never addressed prevvviously  in  the series.   It  was a goal invented halfway through Mass Effect 2 that was dropped before Mass Effect 3 even came out, not because of the leak but because the writer who came up with the story arc and championed it left Bioware.


I read that too.

I'm always shocked when I learn that someone creates or writes something and doesn't have an end for it. Like TV shows and now video game trilogies. How do you start something and not have a clear idea of the ending then work your way toward it? On the fly gnerally goes south. I often wonder if LOST's ending was on the fly like the last season they decided to make that the ending.

#39052
BansheeOwnage

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@Starlite Or Battlestar Galactica.

#39053
BansheeOwnage

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@Byne Blur and I think that there may have been a salarian husk that was a sniper unit. It would be extremely similar in function and performance to the Nemesis. Fast and nimble, with a powerful and sniper rifle (Javelin was a reaper weapon) that charges before shooting. Just an idea.

#39054
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BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Starlite Or Battlestar Galactica.


I'm confused.

#39055
BansheeOwnage

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@Starlite I believe BSG was unplanned after about season 2 so the ending was kind of bleh. I just adding to what you said about how unplanned series tend to be mediocre at best, whereas planned series (like ME3) tend to be much better. Though, we still aren't sure if ME3 is really good, or really bad. :P

Also, I can't quote properly at this computer, sorry. :/

#39056
byne

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Byne Blur and I think that there may have been a salarian husk that was a sniper unit. It would be extremely similar in function and performance to the Nemesis. Fast and nimble, with a powerful and sniper rifle (Javelin was a reaper weapon) that charges before shooting. Just an idea.


I still dont think the Javelin is a Reaper weapon. It uses tech similar to Reaper weapons, but that doesnt make it a Reaper weapon, unless the Thanix Cannon is also a Reaper weapon.

#39057
demersel

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 SwobyJ - no I still think that TIM might be actually a face front for the darelict reaper. 
It is damaged reaper who's mindset is not of a full reaper - it got set back a bit, so he still thinks about being an apex race - but insted he wants to be humanity, and humanity to be an apex race insted of the reapers. (the apex race bull**** is still there in core reaper programming - it was done by the leviathans after all) 
I see that the way this story is written - the reapers and everything about them are ment to be an inspiration point for every religion, including ours. And in that case -Harbinger = godevery other reaper - angels. 
But you see there was one certain angel who rose up and wanted to overthrow god.  He failed and got cast down the from heavens into an underworld. He was even put in charge of it. 
Yet he survived and is aming at turning god's favourite creations against him, so one day he could try again. 
Typical power struggle, right? 
So if we continue this analogy -god = harbinger, every other genreric reaper is more like an angel, so that means that one of those angels - generic reapers - rose up to god (harbinger)  but got cast out. 
And if you think of it - we've met such a reaper. 
I do have evidence to my idea (note, not theory, not a TRUTH, but rather just an idea) - but most of it is thematic stuff, and design of the characters and places, name references, etc. There are actually quite a lot of it. And every single line of dialoge by the illusive man in ME2 could be used as proof. He practically introduces himself with a line "Diplomacy is great when it works, but difficult when everyone already percieves you as a threat". 
His office in ME2 - it is on the Normandy. Did you know that? And you can see that in ME2 it is very different - look at the floor. 
www.youtube.com/watch

those are just examples.  
And i know that even on an off chance this is at all true - it is not as simple and straightforward as "OMG TIM IS A REAPER!!!" 
But it is a neat idea - it makes a great story, it doesn't take away anything from the character, or change anything significantly - so i think it is worth considering and looking into even. 

#39058
BansheeOwnage

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@Byne I also think the Brute was Yahg based. All the evidence points towards that. It's also a grisly synthesis :P

#39059
AresKeith

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Byne I also think the Brute was Yahg based. All the evidence points towards that. It's also a grisly synthesis :P


I like this Reaper Yahg better lol

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#39060
BansheeOwnage

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@Byne it WAS a reaper weapon. Then they decided to call it geth, presumably after cutting the reaper sniper unit. This is all speculation though. Would you like to see the list of points suggesting it is reaper tech? (Though I am at school, and I don't have it here.)

#39061
Unschuld

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Byne I also think the Brute was Yahg based. All the evidence points towards that. It's also a grisly synthesis :P


Is there an un-grisly synthesis?

#39062
BansheeOwnage

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@Unschuld Nope ;)

I'll see you all later.

#39063
spotlessvoid

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Why did they need to explain the Reapers at all?

#39064
demersel

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starlitegirlx wrote...
I'm always shocked when I learn that someone creates or writes something and doesn't have an end for it. Like TV shows and now video game trilogies. How do you start something and not have a clear idea of the ending then work your way toward it? On the fly gnerally goes south. I often wonder if LOST's ending was on the fly like the last season they decided to make that the ending.


You always have an idea how to end a thing. But in the case of TV series or games - it is not the writer that has this idea - it is the person called the Show Runner,  Producer or Creator - in case of mass effect - it is project director Casey Hudson. This is the man that tells the writers what do they need to write about, and what it should ultimatly say in the long run and in the big picture. 

#39065
byne

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Byne it WAS a reaper weapon. Then they decided to call it geth, presumably after cutting the reaper sniper unit. This is all speculation though. Would you like to see the list of points suggesting it is reaper tech? (Though I am at school, and I don't have it here.)


Not if you dont have the list with you. I'm just saying it doesnt look Reapery at all. It looks like the geth just reverse engineered Reaper tech the same way we did.

#39066
demersel

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Byne I also think the Brute was Yahg based. All the evidence points towards that. It's also a grisly synthesis :P


I agree. Brute is a yahg based. 

That is actually a pretty neat in game evidence that reapers are full of bull**** - how they claim to leave the lower species alone. I think the salarians made a deal with reapers - gave them Yahgs so they would harvest them instead of salarians. (salarians are never affected by the reapers in ME3)

Modifié par demersel, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:18 .


#39067
AresKeith

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demersel wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Byne I also think the Brute was Yahg based. All the evidence points towards that. It's also a grisly synthesis :P


I agree. Brute is a yahg based. 

That is actually a pretty neat in game evidence that reapers are full of bull**** - how they claim to leave the lower species alone. I think the salarians made a deal with reapers - gave them Yahgs so they would harvest them instead of salarians. (salarians are never affected by the reapers in ME3)


Just because they leave the lower species alone doesn't mean they won't use some as weapons. I.e Harvesters

#39068
Davik Kang

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 Right.  Hackett.  

I already said about the Systems Alliance becoming the de facto leader of humanity, with their cast resources and their convenient premature desire to build an intergalactic army.  The key thing being that war was a catalyst for a shift in power.

Much of this comes from Codex entries.  Do you remember Admiral Mikhailovich?  He is the guy who demands to inspect your ship early in ME1.  It is revealed that his fleet suffered the fewest losses, and supported the Fifth Fleet (Hackett's) in the ME1 Citadel battle.  Both of these gain the most post-ME1 with their subsequent promotions.  

In ME3, the First Fleet is decimated during the surprise attack on Arcturus Station by the Reapers.  Remember, this station is the house of the Systems Alliance Parliament set up once the SA became a seriously powerful government in itself.  However, the Third Fleet is said to have already pulled back to an ideal firing position when the Reapers arrive (?).

The Fifth Fleet, Hackett's fleet , is said to be tasked with protecting Arcturus Station.  However, it is not destroyed, while other fleets are.  More pressingly, the codex actually says that Hackett sacrificed the 2nd fleet so that the 3rd and 5th could survive.  Is this really the action of a hero?  The 2nd fleet by the way was the one that saved Shanxi from the Turians.

Meanawhile, the fourth fleet, guarding Earth, is decimated, despite advance warning of the attack.  So, Hackett's fleet and his alarmingly well-prepared allies in the 3rd fleet survive, while all other fleets are destroyed.

Note that Anderson remarks that the Reapers couldn't be here already at the beginning of Vancouver.  So why is he surprised?  Did the forces at Arcturus not really put up the fight they were expected to put up?  Why does Anderson say this?

The consequence of all this is that Hackett becomes the de facto leader of humanity, and the person in charge of defending Earth.  What does he do?  Immediately reinstates Shepard and asks her to go to Mars to look for something.

Huh?  This is just odd.  He's already got a plan to abandon Earth, draw humanity's resources away from Earth, and bide time for... what?  Just hoping that his own forces will magically find a ginat spacegun?  

But... that's exactly what happened.  Hackett is prescient?  Liara also reveals that it was Hackett who ordered her to Mars and gave her security clearance to search there.

What is going on.  Is all of this really coincedence or bad writing?

Hackett appears to have engineered himself into being the leader of humanity, and via Shepard, the galaxy.  Even in the Low EMS ending, his ship appears to have survived while others were vaporised.  Where did he go?  How was he so far away that his ship wasn't obliterated?

In the meantime he's been sitting pretty, minding over the Crucible construction.  He then sends everybody to Earth, and makes it clear that the only concern is getting the Citadel doors open.  During this whole mission exposition, we see warning signs intentionally uncovered between Shepard and Hackett.  Shepard expected the assault to be on the Citadel, and is positively surprised when Hackett tells her to head to Earth instead.  

We then see a brief red hologram of the Reaper monument on Earth, and are told that it's a beam that goes to the Citadel.  In not one of the cutscenes do we see any beam between the Citadel and Earth.  And even if they somehow know that the beam does come from the Citadel, how does Anderson possibly know that people can travel up that beam to get onto the Citadel?  Why would he not assume anyone who tried would be reduced to Reaper mush?

There are two (maybe more) possible consequences if what I'm saying about Hackett turns out to be true.  One is simply that he's pushing for control of the galaxy once the Reapers have been wiped out.  But a much darker explanation is that he is already indoctrinated, and is in fact assisting th Reapers by sending most of the galaxy, including their #1 target, Shepard, to Earth for the harvest.  It could mean that Shepard is sent on a Charge of the Light Brigade to speed up the decimatin of the galactic forces, and to speed up Shepard's indoctrination by heading straight for a huge Reaper artifact.

It paints the depressingly dark scenario that the war is already lost, and all Shepard can do is avoid indoctrination.  If she can even manage that.  The ending might just imply what kind of form Shepard can take - fighter (Destroy), AI (control) or new Reaper (Synthesis).

Modifié par Davik Kang, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:07 .


#39069
spotlessvoid

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The only explanation that would have preserved the mystery is not explaining it. Whatever the original purpose of the Reapers is we'll never know. All we know is what they are now. Self preserving agents of destruction. The harvest is to stop organics from developing synthetics advanced enough to challenge the Reapers, and to find races suitable for building more Harbinger class Reapers.

#39070
byne

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Why did they need to explain the Reapers at all?


They didnt need to, and doing so destroys the idea of the Reapers for me.

Its like Vigil said: In the end, what does it matter? Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them.

Vigil knew what was up.

#39071
Either.Ardrey

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Davik Kang wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
They should have stuck with the dark energy ending. The choice would have made more sense and the sacrafice would have been a difficult moral choice which actually was inline with the whole game rather than what we got. I don't know why they cared if it was leaked. So people know why and what the choice will be. Big deal. 

Did they actually say why they scrapped it though?  Maybe they couldn't get it to work in the story.  It might have been that they decided the current story is better.

One theory is that they found out that dark energy, in real life, is not a threat that can/would destroy the universe, and they, BioWare, would be blamed for not doing their homework, considering how much real world science they try to put into Mass Effect.

#39072
byne

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Either.Ardrey wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
They should have stuck with the dark energy ending. The choice would have made more sense and the sacrafice would have been a difficult moral choice which actually was inline with the whole game rather than what we got. I don't know why they cared if it was leaked. So people know why and what the choice will be. Big deal. 

Did they actually say why they scrapped it though?  Maybe they couldn't get it to work in the story.  It might have been that they decided the current story is better.

One theory is that they found out that dark energy, in real life, is not a threat that can/would destroy the universe, and they, BioWare, would be blamed for not doing their homework, considering how much real world science they try to put into Mass Effect.


...so instead they went with ****ing space magic?

#39073
MaximizedAction

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byne wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Why did they need to explain the Reapers at all?


They didnt need to, and doing so destroys the idea of the Reapers for me.

Its like Vigil said: In the end, what does it matter? Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them.

Vigil knew what was up.


Hear hear. And I thought I was the only one on this thread who isn't really fond of them exploring the Reapers.

#39074
Davik Kang

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starlitegirlx wrote...
I'm always shocked when I learn that someone creates or writes something and doesn't have an end for it. Like TV shows and now video game trilogies. How do you start something and not have a clear idea of the ending then work your way toward it? On the fly gnerally goes south. I often wonder if LOST's ending was on the fly like the last season they decided to make that the ending. 

In fairness it sounds like they did have an end for it.  The interview shows that the end was always about Reapers, their motives, the Mass Relays, and a difficult choice.  They would have to amend the details based on how the rest of the story panned out, but the actual end doesn't seem to have changed all that much.

#39075
Restrider

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starlitegirlx wrote...

I always heard the opening part about showering but never stopped to listen to the whole thing. Gotta give them points for how awesomely well that was done.

So did all asari turn into banshees? I know turians are murauders. Batarian's were Cannibals. Humans are husks (and even they were back in ME1 - was that a pre reaper invasion?) I know some were from Cerberus another others Sovereign/geth but I wonder if it was just those two?

What were the Salarians turned into? Were they ever turned? Hmmm? Confused now. Maurauders. Husks. Cannibals. Banshees. Ravengers were rachni so what the hell were the salarians?


Humans                  -> Husks
Humans                  -> Abominations
Humans                  -> Scions
Batarians/Humans  -> Cannibals
Turians                   -> Marauders
Turians/Krogans    -> Brutes
Rachni                   -> Ravager
Asari                      -> Banshees
Salarians               -> Adjutants

What I do not really get is the following:
Harbinger depicts humans as the best race, yet they are only used as cannon fodder...