80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Restrider]

Okay, I concede it that Adjutants do not look like Salarians.
The thing is, that I thought the foot of the Adjutant is actually the lower part of a leg with some kind of hoof as foot. But it's clearly some kind of humanoid foot with only one joint. I mentioned the problem with the hands in my first post.
Yet the heads could easily be Salarian-like. Just imagine the two horns to excessively grow until they touch each other and unite.
To the Scion argument:
Well, Collectors do have Abominations and Husks... so that is no counter-argument from Scions not being made off of humans.

[MaximizedAction]

byne wrote...

demersel wrote...

byne wrote...

demersel wrote...

I have an idea - that QEC communicators are actually direct link into a reaper - by calling someone on the QEC we use a reaper as a telehpone node - and they can not only listen in - but also influence those who use QEC. Which in ME3 is Shepard, Anderson and Hackett. And the Dalatress.

Except we already know how QECs work. As the name says, its through quantum entanglement. I dont know enough about quantum physics to actually explain it, but I believe EDI says when one entangled particle is changed, the other is also instantly changed, allowing for instantaneous point to point communication. QECs by design are impossible to listen in on.

Except that you know who else uses this technology? The reapers. They are basicly huge quantum computers. THEY ARE MADE OUT OF QUANTUM PARTICLES. So if it is stricly point to point particle to particle you can bet, that at least one of those particle is part of some reaper. But since they have millions of particles they are actually capable of communicating you to whoever you want to call. 
And that is the way indoctrination works too- it turn your brain into quantum alignment with a reaper - and you also become a transmitter. 

So demersel. In your mind, what isnt a Reaper? QECs? Reapers! TIM? Reaper!

Your understanding of QECs seems to be seriously flawed. The particles are entangled at one point, and then no matter how far they move from each other, they have an instantaneous link between them. At no point are Reapers involved.

Yep, say two particles are at an entangled state. And if one particle at Cronos station is measuered and gives a certain result, then the wave function of the entangled system collapses and the other particle, say at Horizon, will give the respective other outcome, as if someone at Horizon would've measured it.

Sadly, in reality, QE can't be used for communication due to principal quantum mechanics reasons. Though, in ME it can be explained via the mass effect.

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

Davik. Please listen.
So we have QEC.
Reaper tech.
What do we use QEC in ME2 for?
Normandy to Illusive Man. Personal link.
Except his office in ME2 is nothing like his office in ME3 which we do not use QEC to acces and see.
So what if the QEC that is on the normandy in ME2 - is a direct link into illusive man's mind? into the leviathan illusion type of mental comfort enviroment?
Isn't that plausible?

No.

[byne]

demersel wrote...

Davik. Please listen.
So we have QEC.
Reaper tech.
What do we use QEC in ME2?
Normandy to Illusive Man. Personal link.
Except his office in ME2 is nothing like his office in ME3 which we do not use QEC to acces and see.
So what if the QEC that is on the normandy in ME2 - is a direct link into illusive man's mind? into the leviathan illusion type of mental comfort enviroment?
Isn't that plausible?

At no point in the game is it ever stated that QECs are Reaper tech. You're just making that assumption.

And if it is a link to his mind, why build the real room at all? It doesnt make any sense. Plus, we see Miranda in the room at the beginning of ME2. And someone else was in the room too and handed TIM a datapad. Plus the room in ME3 looks pretty much the same as in ME2.

[Restrider]

On the QEC topic:
Don't you think that indoctrination/direct control works also with QEC?
How can Grayson hear the reapers in his head? How can Harbinger communicate with the Collectors from dark space?
We know for a fact that superluminar communication is not possible in MEU, only through buoyes and QEC.
Think of it like this:
Reaper nanides have some particle that has its counterpart in a reaper -> communication/direct control
Reaper implants may also fulfill this role (see Saren).
Subtle indoctrination does not require direct implantation of nanides/implants. This would just mess with the victim's head enough to follow the Reaper agenda while it still has a considerable amount of free will (Saren pre implants).

[MegumiAzusa]

byne wrote...

demersel wrote...

Davik. Please listen.
So we have QEC.
Reaper tech.
What do we use QEC in ME2?
Normandy to Illusive Man. Personal link.
Except his office in ME2 is nothing like his office in ME3 which we do not use QEC to acces and see.
So what if the QEC that is on the normandy in ME2 - is a direct link into illusive man's mind? into the leviathan illusion type of mental comfort enviroment?
Isn't that plausible?

At no point in the game is it ever stated that QECs are Reaper tech. You're just making that assumption.

And if it is a link to his mind, why build the real room at all? It doesnt make any sense. Plus, we see Miranda in the room at the beginning of ME2. And someone else was in the room too and handed TIM a datapad. Plus the room in ME3 looks pretty much the same as in ME2.

The base assumption that the room we see in ME3 isn't the same as in ME2 is based on the fact that the exterior is holographic in ME2, you even see it being toggled in one scene. In ME3 you've got something like a glass window.
He just tries everything for his "TIM is a Reaper" thing.

btw it's hilarious how many references ME2 has to Revelation.

[demersel]

byne wrote...

At no point in the game is it ever stated that QECs are Reaper tech. You're just making that assumption.

At many points. And no i will not list them here for you, though they are not that difficult to find. 
You're being thick. Both you and Megumy, and being agressive about it.

Even if i'm totally wrong - this gives both of you absolutely no reason or right to behave the way you do.  
You don't like what i have to say? Ignore my posts. Do not reply to them. 

And i was not talking to you. 

Modifié par demersel, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:18 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Restrider wrote...

On the QEC topic:
Don't you think that indoctrination/direct control works also with QEC?
How can Grayson hear the reapers in his head? How can Harbinger communicate with the Collectors from dark space?
We know for a fact that superluminar communication is not possible in MEU, only through buoyes and QEC.
Think of it like this:
Reaper nanides have some particle that has its counterpart in a reaper -> communication/direct control
Reaper implants may also fulfill this role (see Saren).
Subtle indoctrination does not require direct implantation of nanides/implants. This would just mess with the victim's head enough to follow the Reaper agenda while it still has a considerable amount of free will (Saren pre implants).

Yes, this topic is also somewhat explained in Leviathan.

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

byne wrote...

At no point in the game is it ever stated that QECs are Reaper tech. You're just making that assumption.

At many points. And no i will not list them here for, though they are not that difficult to find. 
You're being thick. Both you and Megumy, and being agressive about it.

Even if i'm totally wrong - this gives both of you absolutely no reason or right to behave the way you do.  
You don't like what i have to say? Ignore my posts. Do not reply to them. 

And i was not talking to you.

You never have anything to back up your claims, that is the problem.

[byne]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

demersel wrote...

Davik. Please listen.
So we have QEC.
Reaper tech.
What do we use QEC in ME2?
Normandy to Illusive Man. Personal link.
Except his office in ME2 is nothing like his office in ME3 which we do not use QEC to acces and see.
So what if the QEC that is on the normandy in ME2 - is a direct link into illusive man's mind? into the leviathan illusion type of mental comfort enviroment?
Isn't that plausible?

At no point in the game is it ever stated that QECs are Reaper tech. You're just making that assumption.

And if it is a link to his mind, why build the real room at all? It doesnt make any sense. Plus, we see Miranda in the room at the beginning of ME2. And someone else was in the room too and handed TIM a datapad. Plus the room in ME3 looks pretty much the same as in ME2.

The base assumption that the room we see in ME3 isn't the same as in ME2 is based on the fact that the exterior is holographic in ME2, you even see it being toggled in one scene. In ME3 you've got something like a glass window.
He just tries everything for his "TIM is a Reaper" thing.

btw it's hilarious how many references ME2 has to Revelation.

I dont think that window even actually looks out to space. I think theres probably the hologram beyond the window, and the window is just there for efffect.

They say TIM's office would be in the heart of the station, and be the most protected room, and having a glass window with space right on the other side isnt very protected. They could have skipped the whole assaulting the hanger thing and just crashed through the window if it was actually a window.

[Either.Ardrey]

Restrider wrote...

On the QEC topic:
Don't you think that indoctrination/direct control works also with QEC?
How can Grayson hear the reapers in his head? How can Harbinger communicate with the Collectors from dark space?
We know for a fact that superluminar communication is not possible in MEU, only through buoyes and QEC.
Think of it like this:
Reaper nanides have some particle that has its counterpart in a reaper -> communication/direct control
Reaper implants may also fulfill this role (see Saren).
Subtle indoctrination does not require direct implantation of nanides/implants. This would just mess with the victim's head enough to follow the Reaper agenda while it still has a considerable amount of free will (Saren pre implants).

I'm pretty sure that's how that works. It's the only way to explain how Harbinger could "assume control of this form" from at almost halfway across the galaxy.

Modifié par Either.Ardrey, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:19 .

[Davik Kang]

Arashi08 wrote...
Those points, while more valid than others I've seen, are still not enough to convince me.  The fact is the Reapers are an unknown threat and The Alliance was clearly not ready for it.  

Ok good.  I haven't proved anything nor will I claim to have done.  I am just trying to look at the in-game content as objectively as I can.  It's good that you understand it all but still disagree.  As I already said I hope I'm wrong.

But what I'm seeing when I llok closely at ME1-3 is that there are a lor of common themes, and it really loks less and less like bad wrinting the more I look at it.  Maybe I'm wrong.  But all these things are in the game for a reason.  It could be fluff, or it could be implying something.  At the moment, the imlpication I'm getting is very dark indeed.

Megumi's quote (of the stripped dialgue from the game) makes sense here too:

MegumiAzusa wrote...
It was lonely.
It called to us.
It wanted to remember.

The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.

Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.

We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.

Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.
We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.

We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.

Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.

They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.

Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest.

Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather.

Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too.

It could imply that the other Reapers are the Shepards of their respective cycle generations.  They were the ones who led the entire galaxy to the harvest.  Like the way a shepherd leads the flock to the slaughter.

It's horrible to think about, that's why I really hope it's just BS, but it does make sense in a horrible kind of way.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:38 .

[byne]

demersel wrote...

byne wrote...

At no point in the game is it ever stated that QECs are Reaper tech. You're just making that assumption.

At many points. And no i will not list them here for, though they are not that difficult to find. 
You're being thick. Both you and Megumy, and being agressive about it.

Even if i'm totally wrong - this gives both of you absolutely no reason or right to behave the way you do.  
You don't like what i have to say? Ignore my posts. Do not reply to them. 

And i was not talking to you. 

There are tons of points where this is stated, but I'm not going to tell you any of them!

Ok then.

Also, I'm not behaving poorly in any way, I'm simply telling you your idea doesnt make sense.

Disagreeing with you doesnt mean I'm being mean to you.

[Restrider]

Okay guys, I had a little epiphany:
How is the usual path of an indoctrinated victim?
They are at first exposed to Reapers and/or their artifacts. Their mind is changed through infrasound and various other radiation forms (just ask Rana Thanoptis on that matter). The victim still has some kind of free will, but starts to agree with Reaper logic and tries to fulfill their agenda, which may turn out to betray friends and trust enemies.
At some point, the victims usually decide to get "upgraded". We have a multitude of examples:
The miners in ME1 - supposedly - started to impale themselves onto dragon teeth.
The same can be said about the Cerberus scientist on the derelict reaper.
Saren had many freedoms, and despite his knowledge of indoctrination and its side effects, he agreed to be "upgraded" throughout ME1.
The same can be said about TIM. Though we do not know when he was starting to go "full-indoctrinated", we know when he was exposed to Reaper tech and we know that he later implated himself with Reaper tech (Yet, I have to say that TIM's case is not that chrystal clear as the others).

To round it up, we can usually say that once the victim is "upgraded", the Reapers can assume direct control of them.

[ThisOneIsPunny]

Restrider wrote...

Okay, I concede it that Adjutants do not look like Salarians.
The thing is, that I thought the foot of the Adjutant is actually the lower part of a leg with some kind of hoof as foot. But it's clearly some kind of humanoid foot with only one joint. I mentioned the problem with the hands in my first post.
Yet the heads could easily be Salarian-like. Just imagine the two horns to excessively grow until they touch each other and unite.
To the Scion argument:
Well, Collectors do have Abominations and Husks... so that is no counter-argument from Scions not being made off of humans.

Scions are definitely husk variants, but I don't think all husks are human or all scions. It's mildly hinted in the Codex entry for scions:
"the scion's frame and skull are similar to those of a human or asari..."

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

byne wrote...

demersel wrote...

Davik. Please listen.
So we have QEC.
Reaper tech.
What do we use QEC in ME2?
Normandy to Illusive Man. Personal link.
Except his office in ME2 is nothing like his office in ME3 which we do not use QEC to acces and see.
So what if the QEC that is on the normandy in ME2 - is a direct link into illusive man's mind? into the leviathan illusion type of mental comfort enviroment?
Isn't that plausible?

At no point in the game is it ever stated that QECs are Reaper tech. You're just making that assumption.

And if it is a link to his mind, why build the real room at all? It doesnt make any sense. Plus, we see Miranda in the room at the beginning of ME2. And someone else was in the room too and handed TIM a datapad. Plus the room in ME3 looks pretty much the same as in ME2.

If anything QEC´s would be Leviathan or Rahcni tech considering they use an organic version of it. Off course the Reapers might and probably do have them, but it is never referenced as anything bu technology created by the races of this cycle on their own.

[spotlessvoid]

Quantum entanglement is not Reaper tech bro. It's 20th century science.

[CDR David Shepard]

starlitegirlx wrote...

More good points. Back to Hackett not being indoctrinated. Whew.

Rushing the beam was still a stupid plan. They didn't know where it went to no matter what they said it was impossible to know since they didn't even know squat about the citadel before it showed up in london. So suddenly they know where that beam is going to take them? NO WAY! That was just lame writing. The citadel was massive and in ME2 Anderson talks about repairs and how the keepers fix it better the next day and they were still cleaning up - it makes it seem quite clearly like though they all lived there and worked there, nobody had a clue about all things citadel and therefore it was a desperate assumption that the beam would magically take them to some perfect point to open the arms? Once in there they would have to navigate through it and hopefully find a place where they could open the arms unless there's a special workstation at every corner to do that, I'm going with it being a stupid plan. It sounds stupid before you even work out the logistics of it. If i were a soldier and heard that was the plan that was going to save the galaxy, I would have said F this and shot myself in the head just to not be a reaper chewtoy.

While "stupid" could definitely be used to describe the plan...I lean more towards "desperate" or "only chance".

There was literally no other way to get onto the Citadel...and the Citadel was the only chance for the Crucible to work.

So yeah...while the beam run could have lead them all to their deaths and hypothetically not even transferred them to the Citadel...there was no other choice but hope that it did.

It was either take this crazy chance on the beam run with a high possibility of death...or...certain death.

[spotlessvoid]

If the beam was the only access to the crucible and it's a legit weapon there should be more than Harbinger there. There are thousands of Reapers present and Harbinger goes rambo?

[MegumiAzusa]

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

demersel wrote...

Davik. Please listen.
So we have QEC.
Reaper tech.
What do we use QEC in ME2?
Normandy to Illusive Man. Personal link.
Except his office in ME2 is nothing like his office in ME3 which we do not use QEC to acces and see.
So what if the QEC that is on the normandy in ME2 - is a direct link into illusive man's mind? into the leviathan illusion type of mental comfort enviroment?
Isn't that plausible?

At no point in the game is it ever stated that QECs are Reaper tech. You're just making that assumption.

And if it is a link to his mind, why build the real room at all? It doesnt make any sense. Plus, we see Miranda in the room at the beginning of ME2. And someone else was in the room too and handed TIM a datapad. Plus the room in ME3 looks pretty much the same as in ME2.

The base assumption that the room we see in ME3 isn't the same as in ME2 is based on the fact that the exterior is holographic in ME2, you even see it being toggled in one scene. In ME3 you've got something like a glass window.
He just tries everything for his "TIM is a Reaper" thing.

btw it's hilarious how many references ME2 has to Revelation.

I dont think that window even actually looks out to space. I think theres probably the hologram beyond the window, and the window is just there for efffect.

They say TIM's office would be in the heart of the station, and be the most protected room, and having a glass window with space right on the other side isnt very protected. They could have skipped the whole assaulting the hanger thing and just crashed through the window if it was actually a window.

It is assumed it's in the central lab, which was occupied by the Human Proto-Reaper. Also from an image perspective you move straight forward from the hangar bay (you can see that from the destruction left behind by the fighter), then continue forward, which in no way brings you even close to the main complex but the other side of the arm.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Davik Kang wrote...

Megumi's quote (of the stripped dialgue from the game) makes sense here too:

MegumiAzusa wrote...
It was lonely.
It called to us.
It wanted to remember.

The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.

Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.

We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.

Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.
We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.

We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.

Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.

They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.

Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest.

Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather.

Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too.

It could imply that the other Reapers are the Shepards of their respective cycle generations.  They were the ones who led the entire galaxy to the harvest.  Like the way a shepherd leads the flock to the slaughter.

It's horrible to think about, that's why I really hope it's just BS, but it doesn make sense in a horrible kind of way.

Here is more to that. What would the Protheans equavilant of Shepard be? From what we are led to believe it was Javik, or he was at least a major figure.

Now from what we know the Prothean cycle did not end in the creation of a new Sovereign class Reaper...think about that one for a moment in regards to the above.

[Arashi08]

starlitegirlx wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Oh my. He is indoctrinated. Makes sense and even if you go back to arrival - I bet he knew his friend was indoctrinated. I just wonder when it happened. Maybe he went to find her. Benson? Was that her name? And maybe he got indoctrinated there. And then he sent shepard wanting shepard to get indoctrinated. That would make sense. Then has to lock her up.

Also, I remember the big deal of why hadn't they heard from Hackett in the beginning. That is too notable to forget or dismiss. Quite deliberate.

I have always found a flaw in them saying the light goes up to the citadel. I never thought it made sense that they knew that once I realized the citadel was in space. Also wondered why they bet everything on getting into the beam because they seemed so certain it would lead to a place that would get them to where they could open the arms, but in reality, it was massive. Too massive to know for sure where shepard would end up. In truth, that was my biggest issue with priority earth. Rushing toward the beam sounded like the dumbest thing I'd ever heard. Still does.

Those points, while more valid than others I've seen, are still not enough to convince me.  The fact is the Reapers are an unknown threat and The Alliance was clearly not ready for it. 

Yes it is true that Hackett was essentially the de facto leader of the Alliance, but  he was the leader of the Alliance military as recently as after the Battle of the Citadel.  And oftentimes against an enemy as powerful as the Reapers, you have to make sacfirices lest you lose everything.  Hackett sacrificed the 2nd fleet because if he didn't, then all three fleets would likely have been lost.  This seems like an acceptable war strategy to me.

The game itself does illustrate why Anderson and Shepard didn't hear from Hackett.  !0 the comm buoy network was being destroyed and 2) Hackett may have been engaging the Reaper fleet when the invasion was happening.  It does say int he codex that the Alliance didn't expect the Reaper forces to ignore their stationed fleets in the Arcturus system.  If you'll recall, Hacket DID manage to contact Shepard as they were leaving Earth and the transmission was half-garbled and full of static.  That is a good indication that communications were cut off.

Jus about everything else seems like either a coincidence of the planning of an effective military leader against an unknown threat. 

If I missed anything then feel free to let me know and I will try to explain it.  though I want to ask HOW could Hackett have become indoctrinated?  Considering he was on a ship pretty much the entire game.

EDIT: Ah! I forgot to mention the beam run.  Yes the rush WAS a stupid plan, but only if they had counted on Harbinger showing up.  The initial plan was to take out the Destroyer and then get to the beam.  After the Destroyer was taken out they probably expected light infantry resistance, not several sovereign class Reapers AND Harbinger coming down to take them out.  They likely expected the Reapr fleet to be too concerned with the battle in space.

More good points. Back to Hackett not being indoctrinated. Whew.

Rushing the beam was still a stupid plan. They didn't know where it went to no matter what they said it was impossible to know since they didn't even know squat about the citadel before it showed up in london. So suddenly they know where that beam is going to take them? NO WAY! That was just lame writing. The citadel was massive and in ME2 Anderson talks about repairs and how the keepers fix it better the next day and they were still cleaning up - it makes it seem quite clearly like though they all lived there and worked there, nobody had a clue about all things citadel and therefore it was a desperate assumption that the beam would magically take them to some perfect point to open the arms? Once in there they would have to navigate through it and hopefully find a place where they could open the arms unless there's a special workstation at every corner to do that, I'm going with it being a stupid plan. It sounds stupid before you even work out the logistics of it. If i were a soldier and heard that was the plan that was going to save the galaxy, I would have said F this and shot myself in the head just to not be a reaper chewtoy.

A good point, but they seemed to know that the beam went up to the Citadel, which I can only assume means they somehow saw it in the upper atmosphere.  If it was closer than the moon then they could have seen it in the sky, at least during the day.  I think it is even more odd that The Reapers seemingly planned for the Citadel to be there at that time.  My only conclusion is that the Reaper's planned to move the Citadel there anyway, just not as quickly as they did.  either that or the Crucible was known by the Reapers from the get-go and it may well be a trap.

[demersel]

Object Rho

[byne]

CDR David Shepard wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

More good points. Back to Hackett not being indoctrinated. Whew.

Rushing the beam was still a stupid plan. They didn't know where it went to no matter what they said it was impossible to know since they didn't even know squat about the citadel before it showed up in london. So suddenly they know where that beam is going to take them? NO WAY! That was just lame writing. The citadel was massive and in ME2 Anderson talks about repairs and how the keepers fix it better the next day and they were still cleaning up - it makes it seem quite clearly like though they all lived there and worked there, nobody had a clue about all things citadel and therefore it was a desperate assumption that the beam would magically take them to some perfect point to open the arms? Once in there they would have to navigate through it and hopefully find a place where they could open the arms unless there's a special workstation at every corner to do that, I'm going with it being a stupid plan. It sounds stupid before you even work out the logistics of it. If i were a soldier and heard that was the plan that was going to save the galaxy, I would have said F this and shot myself in the head just to not be a reaper chewtoy.

While "stupid" could definitely be used to describe the plan...I lean more towards "desperate" or "only chance".

There was literally no other way to get onto the Citadel...and the Citadel was the only chance for the Crucible to work.

So yeah...while the beam run could have lead them all to their deaths and hypothetically not even transferred them to the Citadel...there was no other choice but hope that it did.

It was either take this crazy chance on the beam run with a high possibility of death...or...certain death.

I'll let Sarge summarize the beam run.