80611 réponses à ce sujet

[byne]

demersel wrote...

Object Rho

What about it?

It isnt a communicator, it simply reacts to the proximity of the Reapers.

[Eryri]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

It could imply that the other Reapers are the Shepards of their respective cycle generations.  They were the ones who led the entire galaxy to the harvest.  Like the way a shepherd leads the flock to the slaughter.

It's horrible to think about, that's why I really hope it's just BS, but it doesn make sense in a horrible kind of way.

Here is more to that. What would the Protheans equavilant of Shepard be? From what we are led to believe it was Javik, or he was at least a major figure.

Now from what we know the Prothean cycle did not end in the creation of a new Sovereign class Reaper...think about that one for a moment in regards to the above.

Both these points are rather intriguing - not to mention chilling. Lends credence to the theory that Harby wants Shepard to form the core of the new reaper.

Modifié par Eryri, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:42 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Megumi's quote (of the stripped dialgue from the game) makes sense here too:

MegumiAzusa wrote...
It was lonely.
It called to us.
It wanted to remember.

The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.

Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.

We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.

Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.
We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.

We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.

Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.

They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.

Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest.

Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather.

Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too.

It could imply that the other Reapers are the Shepards of their respective cycle generations.  They were the ones who led the entire galaxy to the harvest.  Like the way a shepherd leads the flock to the slaughter.

It's horrible to think about, that's why I really hope it's just BS, but it doesn make sense in a horrible kind of way.

Here is more to that. What would the Protheans equavilant of Shepard be? From what we are led to believe it was Javik, or he was at least a major figure.

Now from what we know the Prothean cycle did not end in the creation of a new Sovereign class Reaper...think about that one for a moment in regards to the above.

Bring Javik with you on the Cerberus HQ, he will immediately recognize the Proto Reaper and implied he saw his fair share of these.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

byne wrote...

demersel wrote...

Object Rho

What about it?

It isnt a communicator, it simply reacts to the proximity of the Reapers.

And even if it was it does not make the QEC used by the Allaince Reaper tech. No one ever even hints that the QEC is based upon some old technology, not even a tiny bit. The Reapers may and probably do use QEC their own tehcnology, but the ones developed for use on the Normandy is pure human tech (and whatever other species of the cycle which may or may not have helped in the construction).

[Davik Kang]

demersel wrote...
snip

Relax dude.  The short responses to your posts are more a reaction to the heavy speculation in them.  You're coming up with some great ideas, but the way you're presenting them makes it look like you're just trying to force the facts to fit your ideas.

It is not stated that Reapers use QE tech, but it is implied that Object Rho in Arrival and the artifiacts in Leviathan allow Reapers to communicate using similar methods to QE.  So it's possible that the QE could promote indoctrination but we don't have anything more concrete than a hint.

Personally, I think if Hackett is indoctrinated, it would have occured over "a process of years".  The Codex talks about the consequences of a high-ranking military official being indoctrinated.  If the Reapers figured humanity to be the dominant species, then it would make sense to target their leader, and if he's not yet their leader, get him there as quickly as possible.  Presumably the Council were targets too.  Their former Spectre Saren certainly was.

It would certainly make sense for the Reapers or whoever to try to control Hackett, and if the indoctrination process was indeed over a number of years, it's likely that no-one would notice until it's too late.  However so far I am just pointing to evidence, and no matter how strong it might seem, so far it is purely circumstantial.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:45 .

[Home run MF]

Restrider wrote...

Okay guys, I had a little epiphany:
How is the usual path of an indoctrinated victim?
They are at first exposed to Reapers and/or their artifacts. Their mind is changed through infrasound and various other radiation forms (just ask Rana Thanoptis on that matter). The victim still has some kind of free will, but starts to agree with Reaper logic and tries to fulfill their agenda, which may turn out to betray friends and trust enemies.
At some point, the victims usually decide to get "upgraded". We have a multitude of examples:
The miners in ME1 - supposedly - started to impale themselves onto dragon teeth.
The same can be said about the Cerberus scientist on the derelict reaper.
Saren had many freedoms, and despite his knowledge of indoctrination and its side effects, he agreed to be "upgraded" throughout ME1.
The same can be said about TIM. Though we do not know when he was starting to go "full-indoctrinated", we know when he was exposed to Reaper tech and we know that he later implated himself with Reaper tech (Yet, I have to say that TIM's case is not that chrystal clear as the others).

To round it up, we can usually say that once the victim is "upgraded", the Reapers can assume direct control of them.

Yes, they subtlely change your thought patterns until the "click" moment (you buy their logic) and then it's over.
In my opinion the decision chamber is the click moment for Shepard.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Here is more to that. What would the Protheans equavilant of Shepard be? From what we are led to believe it was Javik, or he was at least a major figure.

Now from what we know the Prothean cycle did not end in the creation of a new Sovereign class Reaper...think about that one for a moment in regards to the above.

Bring Javik with you on the Cerberus HQ, he will immediately recognize the Proto Reaper and implied he saw his fair share of these.

Does not necesarily mean they succeded in creating a Prothean Sovereign class Reaper. The Proto Reaper is nothing near the final form of a Reaper going by its size (Sovereign class beeing 2 km in length, far bigger than the Proto).

What the Reapers might have created from the Prothean Cycle is Destroyer class Reapers which probably have a similar, but more simple construction process.

Off course nothing is certain as it is EDI who speculates in ME2 that the Reapers were unable to complete a Sovereign class Reaper.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also regarding the entire Hacket Indoctrinated speculation it certianly has merit, but my biggest problem is when he should have been Indoctrinated?

The guy is a Fleet Commander to the bone, spending most of his time on board a ship from what we know, not out in the field. Beyond that he spends almost the entire part of ME3 hidden away from the Reapers overseeing the Crucible project.

To put it shortly he has no (known) contact with Reaper tech or Reapers of any kind throughout all three games and no logical reason he even would get in proximity of it given what we know. It is very hard to imagine how the Reapers could have gotten close enough to him (unless off course you sent the fake Rahcni Queen his way, but that is still only one potential and temporary source)

Also while we are on the topic of the Fake Queen...how can the Reapers not know of the Crucible positiion in a scenario where you send her to the Project? Unless they dont see it as a threat at all.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:46 .

[spotlessvoid]

I think London needed Reapers overhead trying to attack. It's like the Reapers put no effort into stopping any of it. Let's defend the apparently impenetrable citadel from a crucible that needs to dock and leave one guy guarding the back door

[Davik Kang]

Arashi08 wrote...
A good point, but they seemed to know that the beam went up to the Citadel, which I can only assume means they somehow saw it in the upper atmosphere.  If it was closer than the moon then they could have seen it in the sky, at least during the day.  I think it is even more odd that The Reapers seemingly planned for the Citadel to be there at that time.  My only conclusion is that the Reaper's planned to move the Citadel there anyway, just not as quickly as they did.  either that or the Crucible was known by the Reapers from the get-go and it may well be a trap.

Sorry to keep repeating this, but we never see any beam go from the Citadel to Earth.  Not in any of the cutscenes.  We only see such a thing in the ending slides, in a vision of a future when London and the Citadel have supposedly been repaired.

It looks like you IT guys could be right, and the consequences are far worse than I had possibly imagined.

[spotlessvoid]

Re Shepard being uploaded as the new Reaper intelligence:

Makes sense that Harbinger kills everyone but Shepard. He needs him willingly waking into the beam and willingly aligned to Reaper ideology. Helps explain why synthesis looks like and is located directly in front like the Beam.

It would also explain why Shepard isn't immediately blasted in the breath scene. Harbinger hasn't given up on him yet.

[MegumiAzusa]

Davik Kang wrote...

The consequence of all this is that Hackett becomes the de facto leader of humanity, and the person in charge of defending Earth. What does he do? Immediately reinstates Shepard and asks her to go to Mars to look for something.

Anderson reinstates Shepard.

Davik Kang wrote...

But... that's exactly what happened. Hackettis prescient? Liara also reveals that it was Hackett who ordered her to Mars and gave her security clearance to search there.

What is going on. Is all of this really coincedence or bad writing?

So does TIM with Dr Eva. It's desperation.

Davik Kang wrote...

Hackett appears to have engineered himself into being the leader of humanity, and via Shepard, the galaxy.  Even in the Low EMS ending, his ship appears to have survived while others were vaporised.  Where did he go?  How was he so far away that his ship wasn't obliterated?

From the wording you can hear he isn't even sure if he will ever return to Earth, in fact it's actually rather implied that he will not as his ship looks pretty much disabled. Usually Admirals are not on the front line, but rather in a supportive command station.

Davik Kang wrote...

In one of the cutscenes do we see any beam between the Citadel and Earth.

I guess you meant it as a rhetorical question but:
Cat004_Cit_Close

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:47 .

[Arashi08]

Davik Kang wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...
A good point, but they seemed to know that the beam went up to the Citadel, which I can only assume means they somehow saw it in the upper atmosphere.  If it was closer than the moon then they could have seen it in the sky, at least during the day.  I think it is even more odd that The Reapers seemingly planned for the Citadel to be there at that time.  My only conclusion is that the Reaper's planned to move the Citadel there anyway, just not as quickly as they did.  either that or the Crucible was known by the Reapers from the get-go and it may well be a trap.

Sorry to keep repeating this, but we never see any beam go from the Citadel to Earth.  Not in any of the cutscenes.  We only see such a thing in the ending slides, in a vision of a future when London and the Citadel have supposedly been repaired.

It looks like you IT guys could be right, and the consequences are far worse than I had possibly imagined.

As I recall, when you see the Citadel over Earth for the first time, you see a white light come to life from underneath it.  While true it is not a beam, it does seem to indicate based on what Anderson states later that the beam in London leads to the Citadel.  Of course, it is still just speculation.  And the plan was foolish, to be sure, but it was made in desperation.

'd by Megumi

Modifié par Arashi08, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:51 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Arashi08 wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...
A good point, but they seemed to know that the beam went up to the Citadel, which I can only assume means they somehow saw it in the upper atmosphere.  If it was closer than the moon then they could have seen it in the sky, at least during the day.  I think it is even more odd that The Reapers seemingly planned for the Citadel to be there at that time.  My only conclusion is that the Reaper's planned to move the Citadel there anyway, just not as quickly as they did.  either that or the Crucible was known by the Reapers from the get-go and it may well be a trap.

Sorry to keep repeating this, but we never see any beam go from the Citadel to Earth.  Not in any of the cutscenes.  We only see such a thing in the ending slides, in a vision of a future when London and the Citadel have supposedly been repaired.

It looks like you IT guys could be right, and the consequences are far worse than I had possibly imagined.

As I recall, when you see the Citadel over Earth for the first time, you see a white light come to life from underneath it.  While true it is not a beam, it does seem to indicate based on what Anderson states later that the beam in London leads to the Citadel.  Of course, it is still just speculation.  And the plan was foolish, to be sure, but it was made in desperation.

'd by megumi

btw it's highly irritating if you quote each other while having the same avatar

[spotlessvoid]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I think London needed Reapers overhead trying to attack. It's like the Reapers put no effort into stopping any of it. Let's defend the apparently impenetrable citadel from a crucible that needs to dock and leave one guy guarding the back door

10 Reapers guarding the beam (since it's such a bother turning it off) would have crushed that plan. Heck Harbinger practically does it solo. The alliance doesn't even come at it from multiple points. Because of course all the shuttles land at the same spotand they can't flank. Heck, why don't a few ships from the fleets disengage and try to distract Harbinger? Stupid Reapers, stupid organics.

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:54 .

[Davik Kang]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
Does not necesarily mean they succeded in creating a Prothean Sovereign class Reaper. The Proto Reaper is nothing near the final form of a Reaper going by its size (Sovereign class beeing 2 km in length, far bigger than the Proto). 

What the Reapers might have created from the Prothean Cycle is Destroyer class Reapers which probably have a similar, but more simple construction process.

Off course nothing is certain as it is EDI who speculates in ME2 that the Reapers were unable to complete a Sovereign class Reaper.

Note this entry on Reaper class types -

PROCESSORS, also called "slaughter ships," are mobile centers for mass DNA harvesting. Like troop transports, processors appear to be remotely operated by sapient Reapers.

The Citadel is presumably the equivalent here.  Note that this is the only Reaper type where size is not mentioned.  So if Javik never saw one of these then he wouldn't have seen any final Prothean Reaper.

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
Also regarding the entire Hacket Indoctrinated speculation it certianly has merit, but my biggest problem is when he should have been Indoctrinated?

The guy is a Fleet Commander to the bone, spending most of his time on board a ship from what we know, not out in the field. Beyond that he spends almost the entire part of ME3 hidden away from the Reapers overseeing the Crucible project.

To put it shortly he has no (known) contact with Reaper tech or Reapers of any kind throughout all three games and no logical reason he even would get in proximity of it given what we know. It is very hard to imagine how the Reapers could have gotten close enough to him (unless off course you sent the fake Rahcni Queen his way, but that is still only one potential and temporary source)

Quite true.  This is why this is all speculation at the moment.  It merely comes from the various SA codex entries, his imposing demeanor when he boards the Normandy, a few warning/danger signs, and the fact he seems to have the plan all along, even before we've discovered the Crucible.  But I can't point to anything specific that shows how he was indoctrinated.  It just makes sense and fits, but we shouldn't presume that to mean it's right.  Nothing more than speculation at this stage.

[byne]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...
A good point, but they seemed to know that the beam went up to the Citadel, which I can only assume means they somehow saw it in the upper atmosphere.  If it was closer than the moon then they could have seen it in the sky, at least during the day.  I think it is even more odd that The Reapers seemingly planned for the Citadel to be there at that time.  My only conclusion is that the Reaper's planned to move the Citadel there anyway, just not as quickly as they did.  either that or the Crucible was known by the Reapers from the get-go and it may well be a trap.

Sorry to keep repeating this, but we never see any beam go from the Citadel to Earth.  Not in any of the cutscenes.  We only see such a thing in the ending slides, in a vision of a future when London and the Citadel have supposedly been repaired.

It looks like you IT guys could be right, and the consequences are far worse than I had possibly imagined.

As I recall, when you see the Citadel over Earth for the first time, you see a white light come to life from underneath it.  While true it is not a beam, it does seem to indicate based on what Anderson states later that the beam in London leads to the Citadel.  Of course, it is still just speculation.  And the plan was foolish, to be sure, but it was made in desperation.

'd by megumi

btw it's highly irritating if you quote each other while having the same avatar

Davik should use Davik as a custom avatar.

[BatmanTurian]

Restrider wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Starlite Or Battlestar Galactica.

OMG! No!
I was traumatized by that stupid ending...
It's so bad because it is not even ambiguous or vague, it's stupidity with 100% certainty.
They ended a series that was started under the banner of "naturalistic science fiction" and did great during the first two seasons (the third was still good, but moved more to mystery; the fourth season had good parts such as the mutiny plot) with an anti-progressive ending that supports a religious-fundamentalistic, pseudo-scientific theory, known as Creationism, while most of the characters act totally against their previous roles.
I think that the nihilistic end of season 4.5 would've been better and it certainly did match the depressive tone of the series.

Since I played ME3 in august and I already heard of the garbage endings, I feared something like BSG would happen. Can you imagine what happened when I saw the child in that chamber? I was like "OMG! Please not some religous ass-pull, not again, I won't survive that...!!!". As the child turned out to be the Reaper's avatar, I was releaved and told the child to shove it... hehehe. That's why I actually liked the ME3, since it was not a BSG finale and has lot's of ambiguity BSG lacked.

I'm not a huge fan of that series, but the religious part was no asspull. They alluded to it from the very first season.

[plfranke]

spotlessvoid wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I think London needed Reapers overhead trying to attack. It's like the Reapers put no effort into stopping any of it. Let's defend the apparently impenetrable citadel from a crucible that needs to dock and leave one guy guarding the back door

10 Reapers guarding the beam (since it's such a bother turning it off) would have crushed that plan. Heck Harbinger practically does it solo. The alliance doesn't even come at it from multiple points. Because of course all the shuttles land at the same spotand they can't flank. Heck, why don't a few ships from the fleets disengage and try to distract Harbinger? Stupid Reapers, stupid organics.

For that matter, why do the Reapers always send only one incompetent Reaper to do an important task. I mean one Reaper couldn't kill Shepard even when he was trapped between two mountains and his only defense was combat rolling. The Reaper on Tutchanka couldn't even fly. Come on Harbinger is practically fighting this war by himself.

[spotlessvoid]

Lol@ combat roll. Shepard is the reincarnation of Barry Sanders

[MegumiAzusa]

spotlessvoid wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I think London needed Reapers overhead trying to attack. It's like the Reapers put no effort into stopping any of it. Let's defend the apparently impenetrable citadel from a crucible that needs to dock and leave one guy guarding the back door

10 Reapers guarding the beam (since it's such a bother turning it off) would have crushed that plan. Heck Harbinger practically does it solo. The alliance doesn't even come at it from multiple points. Because of course all the shuttles land at the same spotand they can't flank. Heck, why don't a few ships from the fleets disengage and try to distract Harbinger? Stupid Reapers, stupid organics.

What is interesting here is that there are actually 5 Sovereign class Reapers and 5 Destroyers shown to descent towards London.

[plfranke]

So I just remembered that the Asari councilor communicated after Thessia through qec. I always had suspicions that she was a Reaper.

[BatmanTurian]

Restrider wrote...

Okay, I concede it that Adjutants do not look like Salarians.
The thing is, that I thought the foot of the Adjutant is actually the lower part of a leg with some kind of hoof as foot. But it's clearly some kind of humanoid foot with only one joint. I mentioned the problem with the hands in my first post.
Yet the heads could easily be Salarian-like. Just imagine the two horns to excessively grow until they touch each other and unite.
To the Scion argument:
Well, Collectors do have Abominations and Husks... so that is no counter-argument from Scions not being made off of humans.

Perhaps Scions Adjutants are that lost race on Ilos where the prothean scientists and vigil were in ME1? They look like them with the tenticle mouths.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:06 .