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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#39751
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:30

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Rifneno wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
- First and most importantly, the idea that the Reapers' cleanup was so thorough that no one even managed to leave a caveman esque painting of the Citadel showing it to be a trap and yet for and I quote "countless cycles" missed the plans for a superweapon that could destroy them is utterly idiotic.  No sugar coating here.  That's just stupid as hell.  Synthesis levels of dumb.


Honestly that's all I need to know to deduce the Crucible isn't what it seems to be.

Its like finding out you have a bank account worth billions of dollars, only the catch is that its located in Nigeria and you need to give your bank account details to get access to it.  Someone is trying to honeytrap you into giving you everything you've got.

"An ancient secret weapon designed to defeat the Reapers, you say?  Only no-one knows how it works or what it does?  Sure, I'll divert all our resources away from repairing and building ships and weapons to fight this war and put it all into this project!  And I'll get all our allies to do the same thing!  What could possibly go wrong?"

...yeah.


LOL, yeah, that about sums it up.  And notice how no matter what you choose, Shepard's not buying into it at first?

Shepard: I'm a soldier. I should be back on Earth fighting, not wasting my time with this.
Liara: If it's going to work, we need you.
Liara: Shepard?
Liara: Isn't it worth trying, at least?
Shepard: I'm going to check on Ash.

Way to dodge the question, Shep!

Turian Councilor: Do you really believe this can stop the Reapers?
Shepard: I believe in trying.

He's good at this. I'd hate to play dodgeball with Shepard. I don't know who has reach, but Shepard obviously has flexibility.

I don't have the text dump for From Ashes handy, but I'm told Javik doesn't buy into the magic I win button either.


I'm....concerned about Liara. Even just the fact that she keeps showing up right after each of the crazy-death dreams worries me.

Sigh... Just like it was said earlier... I can't help but think that at least half of ME3 was a giant mislead, and Shepard went right into danger in the worst way :(. And not just him, but the galaxy.

Time for dawn to shine onto London... but we'll have to wait longer for that.

#39752
Leonia
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:32

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Don't know about you guys but the idea of waking up to use the Crucible (again but for reals) seems kind of lame. Kind of hoped IT would come up with an altogether new way to defeat the Reapers. Maybe the Crucible IS a trap or maybe not, maybe it's part of a greater whole (like in conjunction with Omega) or maybe it's just a Starmap leading us to the Starforge. Who knows. But if we wake up just to do the same thing as before that seems incredibly lame and a waste of the whole plot twist.

#39753
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:32

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plfranke wrote...

Well some of it is just bad writing guys. Even if IT is the answer to the endings, there are elements of the game that are poorly executed, even IT itself in some places. At some point, even if some of these ridiculous things come down to, "It was a trap" the story as a whole loses credibility, because the player doesn't know what to trust as real, true or friendly.

Indoctrination itself is a poor mechanic because there is not a clearly defined line of what causes indoctrination and what prevents it. For instance, take the average gamer who has not read any of the mass effect books. They played me1 and me2 and start me3. They would have no idea what the hell is going on unless they'd been scanning the internet looking for answers to all the plots that are only discussed during the books. Who the hell is James Vega? Why did Cerberus just attack me when I saved the base and me and TIM were bros at the end of the game? This is not well done, and such things as "We leave no record of anything except for a VI from the past cycle explaining how to stop us down to the last detail." are just more subtle examples of poor writing.


I think that's the point....

A less informed player, if they didn't go "RAWR DIE REAPERS", would boost the numbers, at least initially, of those picking...

Synthesis.

:devil:

#39754
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:35

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Bill Casey wrote...

That is the crash right before the beam run...
Shepard stumbles head first and then the screen goes black...
That is where the mind fight starts...


So you think Shepard is actually still in the shuttle crash?

Interesting.

And it would make some sense, too.

EDIT: however I'm not with you yet on it. I think its just another prompting to turn up the illusion one more level, and that Shepard really is passed out on the beam run itself.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:35 .

#39755
Bill Casey
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:36

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leonia42 wrote...

Kind of hoped IT would come up with an altogether new way to defeat the Reapers.

Why would an interpretation of the ending come up with a new way to defeat the reapers?

#39756
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:37

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spotlessvoid wrote...

If the crucible is a trap, and the Reapers are running a con, Vigil and the Beacons could be traps as well. The crucible could be a red hering deigned to waste time and resources and keep organics from focusing on a direct assault. It could also be designed as a lure for anyone like Shepard to, oh I dunno, walk directly into a Reaper Beam


If the whole goal of the cycles are to continue to gather 'shepards' (to quote the unreleased script dialogue) to become avatars of each major Reaper...

this may be true. It's all a giant giant trap.

Depressing, but possible. Everything has been a delaying game, for sure.

#39757
Humakt83
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:37

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Bill Casey wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Kind of hoped IT would come up with an altogether new way to defeat the Reapers.

Why would an interpretation of the ending come up with a new way to defeat the reapers?


Omega & Guardian DLCs might change the variables so to speak. But Bioware's plans are dubious at best.

Modifié par Humakt83, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:38 .

#39758
Leonia
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:37

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Because if the ending didn't happen then the conclusion hasn't been reached yet. Unless you want to leave it on a cliff-hanger..

The whole point of the end is to say "Hey the Crucible is probably not what we think it is, what else have we got?"

#39759
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:39

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leonia42 wrote...

Don't know about you guys but the idea of waking up to use the Crucible (again but for reals) seems kind of lame. Kind of hoped IT would come up with an altogether new way to defeat the Reapers. Maybe the Crucible IS a trap or maybe not, maybe it's part of a greater whole (like in conjunction with Omega) or maybe it's just a Starmap leading us to the Starforge. Who knows. But if we wake up just to do the same thing as before that seems incredibly lame and a waste of the whole plot twist.


Unlike Bill I don't really think we'll be waking up just to ...step into the indoctrination beam and active the Crucible lol.

There's other stuff going on.

#39760
Bill Casey
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:39

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leonia42 wrote...

Because if the ending didn't happen then the conclusion hasn't been reached yet. Unless you want to leave it on a cliff-hanger..

The whole point of the end is to say "Hey the Crucible is probably not what we think it is, what else have we got?"

I disagree...
The whole point of the ending is to pit the player against indoctrination...

It's a boss fight that forces you to take everything you've learned and confront themes to overcome it...
Or else you end up like the people in the control/synthesis threads...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:40 .

#39761
Leonia
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:40

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Right, to deceive the player. Because the Crucible is a trap.

#39762
MegumiAzusa
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:40

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I don't get why people over and over try to reinterpret the word Crucible. It's in the story the Alliance named the project like that because for them it's the trial if they can build it. Many cycles didn't even manage to do that. Story wise the Crucible was named by the Alliance, not like the Catalyst which "name" was passed down.
Reinterpreting the name is as if you would say "Spectres are named that way because they are actually specters of the Reapers" it just doesn't make any sense.

#39763
Bill Casey
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:40

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leonia42 wrote...

Right, to deceive the player. Because the Crucible is a trap.


No, that's stupid...

#39764
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:41

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Bill Casey wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Because if the ending didn't happen then the conclusion hasn't been reached yet. Unless you want to leave it on a cliff-hanger..

The whole point of the end is to say "Hey the Crucible is probably not what we think it is, what else have we got?"

I disagree...
The whole point of the ending is to pit the player against indoctrination...

It's a boss fight that forces you to take everything you've learned and confront themes to overcome it...


.... You think the Crucible is part of that?

Citadel. Catalyst. Crucible.

It's all part of the same thing.

We fell for it, and are charging right into the enemy's hands.

Goodie for us, the Reapers are smart.

But it doesn't have to happen again, after so many cycles.

#39765
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:42

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Bill Casey wrote...

That is the crash right before the beam run...
Shepard stumbles head first and then the screen goes black...
That is where the mind fight starts...


To me, this is kind of like the idea that the dream starts on the elevator up to the decision room. It's not a terrible idea until... oh right, Shepard can't be on the Citadel.

The fade to white and dream music as you're getting lased, as well of the cinematography of the scene in general, including everything becoming dreamy specifically when you wake up, means there's no way it starts anywhere but getting lased.

#39766
Bill Casey
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:42

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SwobyJ wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Because if the ending didn't happen then the conclusion hasn't been reached yet. Unless you want to leave it on a cliff-hanger..

The whole point of the end is to say "Hey the Crucible is probably not what we think it is, what else have we got?"

I disagree...
The whole point of the ending is to pit the player against indoctrination...

It's a boss fight that forces you to take everything you've learned and confront themes to overcome it...


.... You think the Crucible is part of that?

Citadel. Catalyst. Crucible.

It's all part of the same thing.

We fell for it, and are charging right into the enemy's hands.

Goodie for us, the Reapers are smart.

But it doesn't have to happen again, after so many cycles.

Then the ending isn't an indoctrination attempt...
Both of those things don't work together...
They just don't...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:43 .

#39767
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:43

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Bill Casey wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Right, to deceive the player. Because the Crucible is a trap.


No, that's stupid...


How? How?

The plans that survived every cycle, it seems - and that the Leviathans act shifty about isn't a trap?

That the Alliance had a hold on but only now revealed to both you and Liara to retrieve immediately after Earth gets attacked?

That is of the same shape as Omega, yet the Reapers tell Greyson its theirs?

#39768
Leonia
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:43

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Ok then what is the plot twist, what is the point of indoctrination in the end? Why deceive us? The Reapers bloody know about the Crucible and you don't think they'd use it to their advantage?

#39769
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:44

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

I don't get why people over and over try to reinterpret the word Crucible. It's in the story the Alliance named the project like that because for them it's the trial if they can build it. Many cycles didn't even manage to do that. Story wise the Crucible was named by the Alliance, not like the Catalyst which "name" was passed down.
Reinterpreting the name is as if you would say "Spectres are named that way because they are actually specters of the Reapers" it just doesn't make any sense.


You're being too Watsonian. Sure that is all true, but you also have to look at everything from a Doyleist perspective. Why did the writers name it the Crucible?

#39770
Bill Casey
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:44

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Because Shepard was ALREADY going to use the crucible to destroy the reapers...
IT MAKES THE ENDING POINTLESS...

#39771
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:45

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Bill Casey wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Because if the ending didn't happen then the conclusion hasn't been reached yet. Unless you want to leave it on a cliff-hanger..

The whole point of the end is to say "Hey the Crucible is probably not what we think it is, what else have we got?"

I disagree...
The whole point of the ending is to pit the player against indoctrination...

It's a boss fight that forces you to take everything you've learned and confront themes to overcome it...


.... You think the Crucible is part of that?

Citadel. Catalyst. Crucible.

It's all part of the same thing.

We fell for it, and are charging right into the enemy's hands.

Goodie for us, the Reapers are smart.

But it doesn't have to happen again, after so many cycles.

Then the ending isn't an indoctrination attempt...
Both of those things don't work together...
They just don't...


Crucible = Let's make Shepard's mind the SuperConsciousness of our new Reaper.

Collector Base makes the body and genetic data of humanity. The Crucible is the test to produce the larger consciousness of the Reaper.

Hey, I don't have tight proof (none of us do until its shown in the direct narrative), but I can't see how this is automatically not a real possibility.

#39772
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:46

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Bill Casey wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Because if the ending didn't happen then the conclusion hasn't been reached yet. Unless you want to leave it on a cliff-hanger..

The whole point of the end is to say "Hey the Crucible is probably not what we think it is, what else have we got?"

I disagree...
The whole point of the ending is to pit the player against indoctrination...

It's a boss fight that forces you to take everything you've learned and confront themes to overcome it...


.... You think the Crucible is part of that?

Citadel. Catalyst. Crucible.

It's all part of the same thing.

We fell for it, and are charging right into the enemy's hands.

Goodie for us, the Reapers are smart.

But it doesn't have to happen again, after so many cycles.

Then the ending isn't an indoctrination attempt...
Both of those things don't work together...
They just don't...


I'm sorry Bill, but I don't see how they don't work together. You're saying Harbinger wouldn't want Shepard indoctrinated for any other reason that to make him not use the Crucible? That doesn't make sense.

#39773
dreamgazer
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:46

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I'm curious: what do the IT "interpretation-only" and "BioWare indoctrinated the audience" folks think about where ME4 is going to go, if it turns into a sequel? Or, are you assuming that the series is effectively over, leaving on a hostile debate among the fans?

#39774
spotlessvoid
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:46

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So, if the beam run isn't real how do we get to the citadel?

#39775
Bill Casey
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 02:47

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HE WAS ALREADY GOING TO DO IT.
THERE'S NO POINT.
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