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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#39801
Humakt83
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:14

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Bill Casey wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Because if the ending didn't happen then the conclusion hasn't been reached yet. Unless you want to leave it on a cliff-hanger..

The whole point of the end is to say "Hey the Crucible is probably not what we think it is, what else have we got?"

I disagree...
The whole point of the ending is to pit the player against indoctrination...

It's a boss fight that forces you to take everything you've learned and confront themes to overcome it...


.... You think the Crucible is part of that?

Citadel. Catalyst. Crucible.

It's all part of the same thing.

We fell for it, and are charging right into the enemy's hands.

Goodie for us, the Reapers are smart.

But it doesn't have to happen again, after so many cycles.

Then the ending isn't an indoctrination attempt...
Both of those things don't work together...
They just don't...


They do. There is no doubt that ending is an indoctrination attempt, but how much of it is real and when it starts? Deceiving senses is not hard, certainly not for the species as advanced as the Reapers.

I've said it before, I suspect the third dream never ended for variety of reasons. But I'm not closing out other options. Dream could have started after Harbinger blasted Shepard (but we have the pile of bodies, Normandy rescue and water running uphill already there), after the Mako crashed, or even in Vancouver (but I wouldn't count on that). Heck, ending could even be Shepard walking around in real world but being deceived heavily by the indoctrinated personnel and hallucinations provided by the Reapers.

Then you must take into the account the Reaper's plans. They knew of the Crucible, heck, they are likely the ones behind the whole thing. Their indoctrinated forces sought to use Crucible to control the Reapers in two different cycles. Then we must use the Citadel of all things for Crucible. And we know these two things about the Citadel for certain: A. It is a Reaper construct. B. It is a trap (but in how many ways?).

In the end, we can speculate all we want without coming to any certain conclusion for the whole picture. We won't know what happens for sure until the story continues.

#39802
Bill Casey
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:15

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Why wouldn't the Reapers just turn it off?

Quite honestly, I think it's plot convenience...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:17 .

#39803
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:19

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Rifneno wrote...

The Crucible could just Rickroll every frequency in the Milky Way. Doesn't matter what it does if it doesn't do what Shepard thinks it does -- destroy the Reapers. They're not indoctrinating Shepard because they want to keep him away from the Crucible, they're indoctrinating him because they want his awesomeness to make some awesome Soylent Green for another Reaper. The Crucible can be BS in lots of ways and they'd still want to indoctrinate Shepard. There's tons of theories on what it really does. For instance that it's the new "Reaper womb" since Shepard blew up the last one, or that it's a device to send them back to dark space when this is all finished.


...I think its still a superweapon.

The ultimate in the guided techlines that the Reapers provide for each cycle. Their final test.

The Prothians 'failed', and their reward/punishment was being recreated as the Collectors. *clap clap*

The issue with Control, in most cases of its philosophic angle being explored by the narrative, is that is DOES work... but its a massive danger, and it doesn't actually resolve the larger issues, and its often prone to abuse.

Doesn't mean its not possible.

However, imo its something the Reapers dangle in front of the organics in order to control them themselves, to walk into their Synthesis (huskification/reaperfication) beam.

There's various methods of galactic brainwashing and indoctrination happening.

I do think the Crucible is capable of various awesome things...

But the Reapers use it to finalize a proper harvest. And they tend to win.

#39804
spotlessvoid
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:19

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Bill Casey wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Why wouldn't the Reapers just turn it off?

Quite honestly, I think it's plot convenience...


Come on man

#39805
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:21

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Bill Casey wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Why wouldn't the Reapers just turn it off?

Quite honestly, I think it's plot convenience...


Ah yes, "bad writing"...

#39806
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:21

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IsaacShep wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

@Rif

The whole talk about London, to me, is clear forshadowing that the beam is a trap.

-Cerberus (Reapers by proxy) tries to take the Citadel
-Right after, the Reapers start something big in London
-Later, the Reapers take the Citadel, and connect it to the beam structure in London

The Reapers were planning this all along.

Reapers would've taken the Citadel regardless of Shep, they need it to build the new Human Reaper.


Yeah its really no problem for them, actually.

I think the Reapers kept the Citadel going because it now suits their purpose that it stands intact, because it leads to (ideally) the galaxy launching all forces towards London, pretty much.

I think Cerberus taking the Citadel is a whole other thing, and their plan for it will likely be explored in Omega DLC (which will probably have to take place after the Citadel Coup).

#39807
spotlessvoid
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:21

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Swoby,

Organics in this cycle have no clue what it is. Why even allow it to be built for destroy if it's possible? I don't see how they lasted all those cycles gambling the house like that

#39808
Rifneno
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:23

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SwobyJ wrote...

1. Shepard is standing likely on London. In the *daytime*. With Reapers not standing, but seemingly on a directed path downwards. With the ground looking like the Shepard_Lives video. To me at least, this indicates *something* happens which we haven't seen in-game yet, that severely messes with the Reapers.


You're suggesting they're crashing? They look like they're landing. You should hope they're landing too. If they're crashing, that means each one of them is basically an asteroid. The asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs is believed to have been about 10 km. A single Reaper capital ship is 2 km. Look how many Reapers are above Earth. Even if they didn't hit with near the speed, they'd get tremendous velocity just from Earth's gravity. Long story short: if that's the Reapers falling, Earth is lost anyway.

You think Bioware would make *several* references to Rio? That would be far too blunt.


Because they only put one hint of indoctrination in.

3. Sadly... if the ending itself is what I think it is, Liara isn't safe from Bioware's writing. Doesn't mean she'll die in an indoctrinated mess though, don't get me wrong. I think Shepard's allies are Shepard's allies!
...I just also think that the Council standoff with the VS is a taste of what is possible. Just possible.


True. After what they did with Anders in DA2, I guess I shouldn't write off the possibility they'd do something to Liara. Good point on the Council standoff.

4. Bioware isn't just dropping Mass Effect, and imo they won't be wasting time on a side-story or RTS or recreation of the First Contact War. I strongly feel that the story will continue, even if Shepard's story (or at least story focus) will end.


Hehe. All the talk about MMO's earlier had me imagining them doing an ME-based MMO. The last raid fight being at London and right when you think it's over and the top guild has beaten everything until the expansion comes out, some sort of Reaperized Shepard comes out and goes Kerafyrm on their asses out of nowhere. I can't imagine it ever happening, but it'd be a fun reveal.

#39809
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:24

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Humakt83 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Because if the ending didn't happen then the conclusion hasn't been reached yet. Unless you want to leave it on a cliff-hanger..

The whole point of the end is to say "Hey the Crucible is probably not what we think it is, what else have we got?"

I disagree...
The whole point of the ending is to pit the player against indoctrination...

It's a boss fight that forces you to take everything you've learned and confront themes to overcome it...


.... You think the Crucible is part of that?

Citadel. Catalyst. Crucible.

It's all part of the same thing.

We fell for it, and are charging right into the enemy's hands.

Goodie for us, the Reapers are smart.

But it doesn't have to happen again, after so many cycles.

Then the ending isn't an indoctrination attempt...
Both of those things don't work together...
They just don't...


They do. There is no doubt that ending is an indoctrination attempt, but how much of it is real and when it starts? Deceiving senses is not hard, certainly not for the species as advanced as the Reapers.

I've said it before, I suspect the third dream never ended for variety of reasons. But I'm not closing out other options. Dream could have started after Harbinger blasted Shepard (but we have the pile of bodies, Normandy rescue and water running uphill already there), after the Mako crashed, or even in Vancouver (but I wouldn't count on that). Heck, ending could even be Shepard walking around in real world but being deceived heavily by the indoctrinated personnel and hallucinations provided by the Reapers.

Then you must take into the account the Reaper's plans. They knew of the Crucible, heck, they are likely the ones behind the whole thing. Their indoctrinated forces sought to use Crucible to control the Reapers in two different cycles. Then we must use the Citadel of all things for Crucible. And we know these two things about the Citadel for certain: A. It is a Reaper construct. B. It is a trap (but in how many ways?).

In the end, we can speculate all we want without coming to any certain conclusion for the whole picture. We won't know what happens for sure until the story continues.


Oh I think Shepard is quite up and running through 99% of the game until the beam run..

But bit by bit, reality is being replaced.

They need a willing and capable tool/mind, not a compromised one, or especially a gibbering/worshipping one.

#39810
Humakt83
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:25

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BleedingUranium wrote...

-Send more than Harbinger to defend it (maybe even some ground troops?)

.


Do not forget Mr. Shields and Three Husketeers.

It is obvious that Harbinger wants to keep Shepard alive (whether the scene is real or not is another matter) or at least Shepard's body intact, everyone else running to the beam are just plainly disintegrated with one quick shot from Harbinger's laser. Harbinger takes delicate care not to outright destroy Shepard.

Modifié par Humakt83, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:28 .

#39811
spotlessvoid
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:25

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They can't turn it off. Yeah....

Harbinger "How do I turn this off!"

Reaper 1 "press menu, select, then hit-"

Harbinger "how the hell-what's the sleep timer?"

Reaper 2 "Hit exit, then menu, select-no, not stb, select. No-"

Harbinger "Dammit. Piece of sh-"

Reaper 2 "Try menu, select Harbin-"

Harbinger"****! Shepards here!"

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:26 .

#39812
shepskisaac
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:27

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Rifneno wrote...

Hehe. All the talk about MMO's earlier had me imagining them doing an ME-based MMO. The last raid fight being at London and right when you think it's over and the top guild has beaten everything until the expansion comes out, some sort of Reaperized Shepard comes out and goes Kerafyrm on their asses out of nowhere. I can't imagine it ever happening, but it'd be a fun reveal.

I think the 'threat' of the next ME game being an MMO has been pretty much eliminated after TOR. EA won't want to risk again

#39813
DoomsdayDevice
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:27

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Home run MF wrote...

Hackett: And I don't care what he thinks he's proven. There's only one way we defeat the Reapers: no more Reapers.

Shep: But what if the Reapers really can be controlled?

Hackett: That's like trying to tame a shark: somebody's going to end up dead. In this case, it would be the whole galaxy. He's the worst possible person to give that kind of power to.


Awesome, thanks!

Aren't we missing something before this though?

IIRC, Shepard starts by saying: What if the Illusive Man is right? What if the Reapers can be controlled?

After that, we're missing something, I think. And then comes what you posted.

#39814
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:27

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Swoby,

Organics in this cycle have no clue what it is. Why even allow it to be built for destroy if it's possible? I don't see how they lasted all those cycles gambling the house like that


I think anything that advanced can be used to expel energy like a weapon.

I don't think its the intended purpose, thus the 'fire the tubes' symbolism. The intended purpose would be whatever the Reapers want it to be, same with the Citadel, the mass relays, whatever!

Bioware hides stuff in its codex and ...

Klendagon[/b] is an arid terrestrial, slightly larger than Earth,
but with a lower density that reflects its relative lack of heavier
elements. The crust is composed of tin and aluminum, with wide deserts
of dust-fine sand that are easily stirred by the wind.

Posted Image
Klendagon's most striking feature is, of course, the Great Rift
valley that stretches across the southern hemisphere. What is most
fascinating about the Rift is that it does not appear to be natural. The
geological record suggests it is the result of a "glancing blow" by a mass accelerator round of unimaginable destructive power. This occurred some thirty-seven million years ago.

#39815
BansheeOwnage
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:29

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Hey everyone. :)
It's been a while. What's new?

#39816
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:29

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spotlessvoid wrote...



They can't turn it off. Yeah....

Harbinger "How do I turn this off!"

Reaper 1 "press menu, select, then hit-"

Harbinger "how the hell-what's the sleep timer?"

Reaper 2 "Hit exit, then menu, select-no, not stb, select. No-"

Harbinger "Dammit. Piece of sh-"

Reaper 2 "Try menu, select Harbin-"

Harbinger"****! Shepards here!"


Hahahaha Posted Image

#39817
Rifneno
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:30

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hey everyone. :)
It's been a while. What's new?


Nobody ever answers that.  I was gone for a week and a half and never got an answer either. :mellow:

#39818
BansheeOwnage
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:31

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SwobyJ wrote...

Synthesis - it makes the new Reaper personality. Sorry Shepard, you fell for it

Literally...

#39819
BansheeOwnage
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:32

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Rifneno wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hey everyone. :)
It's been a while. What's new?


Nobody ever answers that.  I was gone for a week and a half and never got an answer either. :mellow:

You know, you're right. Thought I'd ask anyway. Posted Image

Welcome back by the way.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:32 .

#39820
Arashi08
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:32

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I know this has probably been talked about to death already but I was thinking about this so I thought I'd share it.

I was gonna suggest that maybe the Crucible is part of the cycles, since according to Leviathan the cycles always end with the birth of a Reaper, and that maybe the reason here is no Prothean Reaper was because they failed to finish it and the fact that the control ending seems to suggest that Shepard does become a Reaper and that they are building a Reaper inside the Citadel.

However, I am less inclined to believe this now because of the existence of Synthesis and Destroy, unless they are arguing that everyone before Shepard always picked Control and Synthesis. plus, i don't think it is implied that they are creating a Reaper until you are supposedly on the citadel, which according to IT (or some forms of IT) is only occuring in a hallucination.

Still, I always wondered if maybe the Crucible was the means by which a Reaper was finished, by introducing a powerful individual with strong will to become the dominant will within the collective Reaper consciousness. But going over the evidence it does seem less likely to me.

Modifié par Arashi08, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:33 .

#39821
spotlessvoid
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:33

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TIM is a derelict Reaper.

The Reapers are innocent.

Harbinger purrs when you scratch his head.


That's what's new

#39822
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:34

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Rifneno wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Hey everyone. :)
It's been a while. What's new?


Nobody ever answers that.  I was gone for a week and a half and never got an answer either. :mellow:


I think that's because it's hard to keep track of what is new, even though that's usually not much.

#39823
spotlessvoid
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:35

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Synthesis - it makes the new Reaper personality. Sorry Shepard, you fell for it

Literally...


Just go into the Reaper beam Shep. It's cool

#39824
spotlessvoid
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:36

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Well, if the end is a hallucination we dont know if there are 3 options Arashi.

#39825
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 03:37

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@Rif:

1. Well like I was saying, I don't think they're dead or anything.
But if they're seemingly landing en masse... something could be up.
Like the death or incapacitation of Harbinger. /specuations

I keep remembering their PR campaign... "Take Earth Back" was the incessent message. I know it makes sense to do something like that, but it seemed everything centered on Earth and taking it back, instead of winning a galactic war.

While the multiplayer was all about the galaxy fighting.

Eh... something just felt off with it. Like, this is a major battle, and it determines the war, but.... its not all there is. And really, I had this sense since a few months before ME3 came out.

2. Indoctrination is a large thematic device in itself. Rio is an exact location of a potential future DLC, even if its THE major one. I don't see what you're getting at, as those are completely different things.
Here's a good comparison: Talking to Liara in ME2 and she mentions the Shadow Broker and a couple mini-assignments on Thessia about him. And that's it.
Yet we then have a large DLC all about going after the Shadow Broker and entering his base.
Bioware would have to balance on the line between hinting, and bashing it into people's heads that we're going to Rio. Especially if a Rio DLC pretty much states that we haven't gotten the whole ending yet.

3. So far, I'll assume our henchmen will stay our henchmen but... I think Liara's story placement hasn't been realized yet, and like all the potential nightmares of ME3, she may be one of the biggest ones. Again, potential. I think Bioware will always try for an 'everyone lives' kind of ending, and the VS situation is unique.

4. lololol :wizard:
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