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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#39876
Raistlin Majare 1992
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 06:34

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Arashi08 wrote...

Also, off topic but I was curious if any writers on this thread have any good tips for getting past writer's block?  I will know attempt to integrate this question into the topic...

...maybe if IT isn't real, writer's block might have been what the ME writers were going through?

/Fail Posted Image


I write on a regular basis and have to deal with writers blocks on a regular basis. My best suggestion when dealing with a writers block if it is towards a specific topic or story is to take your focus away from that and write something completely different for a time.

#39877
Raistlin Majare 1992
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 06:37

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SwobyJ wrote...

Holy moley... I'm watching Arrival right now and...

Do we have any actual proof that the Reapers can enter through the Alpha Relay?????

Oh my god....

EDIT: I mean by enter, the Reapers can use the Alpha relay to go anywhere else.

All we have is Kenson's word.. that she got from a Reaper artifact...


I think by "going anywhere else" they mean that once the Reapers have access to the relay network they will spread like wildfire through the Galaxy and hope will be lost as we are just not prepared (not that it seems preparations got that much further in the 6 months we bought them, but I guess every little bit counts in this war).

#39878
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Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 06:41

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Holy moley... I'm watching Arrival right now and...

Do we have any actual proof that the Reapers can enter through the Alpha Relay?????

Oh my god....

EDIT: I mean by enter, the Reapers can use the Alpha relay to go anywhere else.

All we have is Kenson's word.. that she got from a Reaper artifact...


I think by "going anywhere else" they mean that once the Reapers have access to the relay network they will spread like wildfire through the Galaxy and hope will be lost as we are just not prepared (not that it seems preparations got that much further in the 6 months we bought them, but I guess every little bit counts in this war).


Ok, I'm watching more of the DLC and I think you're right.

I hate how they call it the Alpha relay then, like its ohhhh so special in itself.


So then, what about the communication to Kenson and co. about when they're arriving and more?

Still sounds like a trap in itself.

Why does Hackett want Shepard to go alone?

#39879
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Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 06:48

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So what do you guys think?

social.bioware.com/898431/polls/41016/


Hackett: "And you believe the Reaper invasion really was a threat?"

The way its worded, and with Hackett turning his back to you....  (Reapers are not a threat?)

Subtle cues could be cues, or nothing. Just... wondering.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 26 octobre 2012 - 06:50 .

#39880
Bill Casey
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 06:55

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plfranke wrote...

Bill, do you have this notion that the Reapers just stop trying if Shepard resists indoctrination or something? A huge part of IT is that the face value endings are too ridiculous to be real. You are suggesting that IT is true but everything that happened is going to happen right after Shepard snaps out of his hallucination. Is Illusive Man going to show up on the Citadel too? Then you, Anderson and him are going to have another showdown? Come on now. We might as well say another AI will show up who takes the form of the kid but this time it will be actually happening. Your suggestion that the story should be abandoned just so that the player can get a sense of what it would be like facing indoctrination is turrible. TURRIBLE

It's not a suggestion...
It's what the ****ing ending is...
The ending is shepard fighting indoctrination...
That's how they wanted to end it...

Two things are suggested by the breath scene...

1. Shepard wants to use the crucible to destroy the reapers
2. We will win

That's it...
You don't need anything else...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 octobre 2012 - 07:02 .

#39881
Raistlin Majare 1992
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 06:57

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SwobyJ wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Holy moley... I'm watching Arrival right now and...

Do we have any actual proof that the Reapers can enter through the Alpha Relay?????

Oh my god....

EDIT: I mean by enter, the Reapers can use the Alpha relay to go anywhere else.

All we have is Kenson's word.. that she got from a Reaper artifact...


I think by "going anywhere else" they mean that once the Reapers have access to the relay network they will spread like wildfire through the Galaxy and hope will be lost as we are just not prepared (not that it seems preparations got that much further in the 6 months we bought them, but I guess every little bit counts in this war).


Ok, I'm watching more of the DLC and I think you're right.

I hate how they call it the Alpha relay then, like its ohhhh so special in itself.


So then, what about the communication to Kenson and co. about when they're arriving and more?

Still sounds like a trap in itself.

Why does Hackett want Shepard to go alone?



The reason he wants Shepard to go alone is because Kenson is captured by the Batarians and a Squad rushing in might prombt them to execute her (as well as causing a bigger incident with the Batarians).

Calling it the Alpha relay is probably only because it is where they are going to be arriving, the first Relay they hit.

As for why it was telegrpahing their arrival I dont know, maybe the pulses were kind of like a beacon to the Reapers, a way for them to easily locate the Relay closest to their position as they enter the galaxy?

#39882
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Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:02

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Bill Casey wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Bill, do you have this notion that the Reapers just stop trying if Shepard resists indoctrination or something? A huge part of IT is that the face value endings are too ridiculous to be real. You are suggesting that IT is true but everything that happened is going to happen right after Shepard snaps out of his hallucination. Is Illusive Man going to show up on the Citadel too? Then you, Anderson and him are going to have another showdown? Come on now. We might as well say another AI will show up who takes the form of the kid but this time it will be actually happening. Your suggestion that the story should be abandoned just so that the player can get a sense of what it would be like facing indoctrination is turrible. TURRIBLE


It's not a suggestion...
It's what the ****ing ending is...
The ending is shepard fighting indoctrination...
That's how they wanted to end it...


I think the point is that there is a question on whether its:

1)Shepard undergoing indoctrination, and the Crucible stuff taken literally

or

2)Shepard undergoing indoctrination, because of a larger story is being told, that's we're not done with yet



You prefer the first one, ok.

Myself, I question whether anything post beam is real. At all. And if its not real, then there is the strong chance to me that things were engineered to even GET Shepard into this position of being indoctrinated.

And if it was engineered, the Crucible is part of it.

I even think of the Prothian cycle:
So... they have the Citadel, kill the leaders and... allow the cycle enough time to build a Crucible or at least work substantially on it?

.......


The ending can be indoctrination and still alude to a larger story. It can even be the end of Shepard's story and alide to a larger story. Bioware seems to intend on continuing the IP and it is fairly logical that there will be big story threads that they will follow up on, even if the ending of ME3 itself is Shepard's more personal struggle with indoctrination.

#39883
Bill Casey
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:03

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No...
The series ends on Shepard waking up...
That's the ****ing ending...

It's the player vs. indoctrination...
Boom, there's your ending...
Art...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 octobre 2012 - 07:06 .

#39884
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Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:04

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Bill Casey wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Bill, do you have this notion that the Reapers just stop trying if Shepard resists indoctrination or something? A huge part of IT is that the face value endings are too ridiculous to be real. You are suggesting that IT is true but everything that happened is going to happen right after Shepard snaps out of his hallucination. Is Illusive Man going to show up on the Citadel too? Then you, Anderson and him are going to have another showdown? Come on now. We might as well say another AI will show up who takes the form of the kid but this time it will be actually happening. Your suggestion that the story should be abandoned just so that the player can get a sense of what it would be like facing indoctrination is turrible. TURRIBLE

It's not a suggestion...
It's what the ****ing ending is...
The ending is shepard fighting indoctrination...
That's how they wanted to end it...

Two things are suggested by the breath scene...

1. Shepard wants to use the crucible to destroy the reapers
2. We will win

That's it...
You don't need anything else...


I feel it is more:

1. Shepard will do whatever it costs to destroy the Reapers
2. We will win, but they haven't shown us how, at all yet.

If Shepard is in rubble and we haven't even seen what the Crucible does, its all up in the air.

I do think the Crucible can probably be used for a Destroy option.

But if we don't see it, its only an implied part of a non-narrative.

#39885
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:05

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It's called the Alpha relay because it can link to every other relay in the galaxy, even the Citadel.

#39886
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Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:06

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Holy moley... I'm watching Arrival right now and...

Do we have any actual proof that the Reapers can enter through the Alpha Relay?????

Oh my god....

EDIT: I mean by enter, the Reapers can use the Alpha relay to go anywhere else.

All we have is Kenson's word.. that she got from a Reaper artifact...


I think by "going anywhere else" they mean that once the Reapers have access to the relay network they will spread like wildfire through the Galaxy and hope will be lost as we are just not prepared (not that it seems preparations got that much further in the 6 months we bought them, but I guess every little bit counts in this war).


Ok, I'm watching more of the DLC and I think you're right.

I hate how they call it the Alpha relay then, like its ohhhh so special in itself.


So then, what about the communication to Kenson and co. about when they're arriving and more?

Still sounds like a trap in itself.

Why does Hackett want Shepard to go alone?



The reason he wants Shepard to go alone is because Kenson is captured by the Batarians and a Squad rushing in might prombt them to execute her (as well as causing a bigger incident with the Batarians).

Calling it the Alpha relay is probably only because it is where they are going to be arriving, the first Relay they hit.

As for why it was telegrpahing their arrival I dont know, maybe the pulses were kind of like a beacon to the Reapers, a way for them to easily locate the Relay closest to their position as they enter the galaxy?


Batarians have kept friggin hostages before and you've been able to bring a squad with you. That's not a very strong point, but still.

See, I do kinda get it with the first part. Ok. The prison, I get it.

But you can't bring a teammate with you to the Project?

And it can't be just a beacon. Look at Kenson's eyes....

#39887
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:06

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Bill Casey wrote...

No...
The series ends on Shepard waking up...
That's the ****ing ending...

It's the player vs. indoctrination...
Boom, there's your ending...
Art...


That's the current ending, yes.

#39888
Raistlin Majare 1992
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:07

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BleedingUranium wrote...

It's called the Alpha relay because it can link to every other relay in the galaxy, even the Citadel.


Really? Must have missed that part...

Good thing the Batarians dident realize that.

#39889
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:08

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BleedingUranium wrote...

It's called the Alpha relay because it can link to every other relay in the galaxy, even the Citadel.


But do we have proof that it's some special one? Other than Kenson's word, which is clearly tainted by indoctrination?

I mean, if all relays can go to all others, I drop my point (like I did earlier in the thread). But if its supposed to be some special relay, I don't buy it.

#39890
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:10

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BleedingUranium wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

No...
The series ends on Shepard waking up...
That's the ****ing ending...

It's the player vs. indoctrination...
Boom, there's your ending...
Art...


That's the current ending, yes.


Yeah that's my point. Bill, its like you think Mass Effect, period, ends on the default ending of ME3.

It doesn't, or at least we have no confirmation of such.

I already said earlier that while I think there will be some related DLC to this (Rio), it doesn't mean I absolutely know that would happen. It very well may go without and DLC, and just end how it ends.

But that also doesn't mean Mass Effect ends.

Bill, do you really think the Crucible is just a plan carried throughout all or most of the cycles without any Reaper tampering or origination?

#39891
CmdrShep80
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:10

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Well, I think I can do the 50k points with the N7 Crusader. I just got 59023 just by using it for about 4-5 rounds. It's hard as heck to aim because of it's accuracy but it's deadly when using a character with upgraded damage and solid melee. Right now I'm plowing through a Bactarian Sentinal trying to get it to level 20, then back to my Krogan I used last weekend., well maybe.

Plus I finally reached 100 N7 rank. It may not look like much but I'm proud of it

I'm trying to get one of each area to level 20 before I start promoting people lol. Keep in mind I only play at worse 2-3 matches and at best 2-3 matches so it all takes a while

#39892
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:17

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BleedingUranium wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

No...
The series ends on Shepard waking up...
That's the ****ing ending...

It's the player vs. indoctrination...
Boom, there's your ending...
Art...


That's the current ending, yes.


And yeah, there's nothing saying they wouldn't wait for a year or two to let players chew on the ending, and then announce their next chapter (doesn't need to be part of this trilogy at all) to the Mass Effect Universe.

"Mass Effect universe is vast, and Casey and our teams have plans for
another full game. Where to go next? with such a project has been a
question a lot of us have been asking, and we'd all love to hear your
ideas," adds Flynn on the BioWare blog,
revealing plans of the new full game in the critically acclaimed Mass
Effect (ME) series.

Full game can mean a lot of things, I know.


I really hope my boyfriend's friend is working on it :). I wouldn't ever want him to break an NDA, but its exciting to think about.

#39893
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:19

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Alpha Relay wiki article.

#39894
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Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:22

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BleedingUranium wrote...

Alpha Relay wiki article.


Is this stuff proven in game though?

Or is it all stuff Kenson said? Is there a codex entry?

#39895
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:28

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SwobyJ wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Alpha Relay wiki article.


Is this stuff proven in game though?

Or is it all stuff Kenson said? Is there a codex entry?


I believe there's a codex entry.

Besides, if it's on the wiki, it's proven beyond a doubt. They won't even mention the possiblity of the girl the PTSD Asari talks about being Joker's sister because it's not officially confirmed. Or that the Argus and Mattock are the same family of weapons, because "visual comparisons are subjective". It keeps going Posted Image

#39896
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:35

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BleedingUranium wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Alpha Relay wiki article.


Is this stuff proven in game though?

Or is it all stuff Kenson said? Is there a codex entry?


I believe there's a codex entry.

Besides, if it's on the wiki, it's proven beyond a doubt. They won't even mention the possiblity of the girl the PTSD Asari talks about being Joker's sister because it's not officially confirmed. Or that the Argus and Mattock are the same family of weapons, because "visual comparisons are subjective". It keeps going Posted Image


Anyway, I don't think the Alpha Relay matters in my point either way.

I'm watching Arrival again:

Kenson: "Commander Shepard? I'd heard you were alive. Admiral Hackett must have received my message."

Sigh, another possibly innocent line, that when taken away with the fact that she's indoctrinated, makes me go :huh:


EDIT: Basically I'm curious that she says this, instead of say "Admiral Hackett must have sent help!" instead of "received my message".
It could mean nothing, I know.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 26 octobre 2012 - 07:36 .

#39897
Raistlin Majare 1992
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:41

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SwobyJ wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Alpha Relay wiki article.


Is this stuff proven in game though?

Or is it all stuff Kenson said? Is there a codex entry?


I believe there's a codex entry.

Besides, if it's on the wiki, it's proven beyond a doubt. They won't even mention the possiblity of the girl the PTSD Asari talks about being Joker's sister because it's not officially confirmed. Or that the Argus and Mattock are the same family of weapons, because "visual comparisons are subjective". It keeps going Posted Image


Anyway, I don't think the Alpha Relay matters in my point either way.

I'm watching Arrival again:

Kenson: "Commander Shepard? I'd heard you were alive. Admiral Hackett must have received my message."

Sigh, another possibly innocent line, that when taken away with the fact that she's indoctrinated, makes me go :huh:


EDIT: Basically I'm curious that she says this, instead of say "Admiral Hackett must have sent help!" instead of "received my message".
It could mean nothing, I know.


I think she means the message regaridng the Reapers arrival and the Alpha Relay, I mean when you are dealing with Reapers who is the first person you call?

Oh god...

When there is something strange and it dont look good, who are you gonna call?
Commander Shepard! :whistle:

#39898
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:49

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Kenson said they were one button press away from launching the Project.

Why was she found away from it, and got arrested by Batarian mooks that didn't even know what the Project was up to until they investigated?

Here's a hypothesis (and again, I know I may be wrong):

-Hackett is indoctrinated, either by Object Rho or something else. This part is the weakest of my idea, as we have no idea what may have caused this.

-Kenson's team investigates Alpha Relay, and finds Object Rho

-Once done the Project's construction, yet also indoctrinated, Kenson sends a message to Hackett to start the Arrival (of obtaining Shepard...). She leaves and gets herself arrested as bait. Hackett has Shepard head in alone under pretense of avoiding an intergalactic incident.

-Instead of dismantling the Project, the members keep it intact. This is part of Shepard's test at this point, and the Crucible will be the last.

-Kenson is saved by Shepard and brought to the base, and all the crazy shiz happens.
"Do not resist."
"Give yourself over and be spared."
"Your mind will be mine."

I think that while Arrival is very optional, it is also illustrative of the means and methods Reapers will use to take control of you. The Project is a mini Crucible, symbolically, and Kenson leading Shepard to it is like Hackett/Anderson leading Shepard to the beam,

#39899
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:50

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Alpha Relay wiki article.


Is this stuff proven in game though?

Or is it all stuff Kenson said? Is there a codex entry?


I believe there's a codex entry.

Besides, if it's on the wiki, it's proven beyond a doubt. They won't even mention the possiblity of the girl the PTSD Asari talks about being Joker's sister because it's not officially confirmed. Or that the Argus and Mattock are the same family of weapons, because "visual comparisons are subjective". It keeps going Posted Image


Anyway, I don't think the Alpha Relay matters in my point either way.

I'm watching Arrival again:

Kenson: "Commander Shepard? I'd heard you were alive. Admiral Hackett must have received my message."

Sigh, another possibly innocent line, that when taken away with the fact that she's indoctrinated, makes me go :huh:


EDIT: Basically I'm curious that she says this, instead of say "Admiral Hackett must have sent help!" instead of "received my message".
It could mean nothing, I know.


I think she means the message regaridng the Reapers arrival and the Alpha Relay, I mean when you are dealing with Reapers who is the first person you call?

Oh god...

When there is something strange and it dont look good, who are you gonna call?
Commander Shepard! :whistle:


I know this, but most of her words, even "The Reapers *are* coming." sound innocent until it is revealed, hey, she's 100% indoctrinated!

Arrival was the big thing that taught me to PAY ATTENTION TO SUBTEXT in Mass Effect.

#39900
Leonia
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:50

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Ah, we're back to "Something is wrong with Hackett". The more you think about it, the more weird it gets. All of Hackett's responses in ME3 seem relatively basic. He doesn't want to understand the Reapers, he wants to beat them. But how can you beat an enemy if you don't understand its tactics? It's like that line from Vigil, feels like Sun Tzu is relevant here. Who points you to the Crucible plans at just the right moment? Who sends you alone to Object Rho? Who has armed guards with him on the Normandy?

I'm not sure whether it's indoctrination or what but something isn't quite right. What if the fleet that he sacrificed at Arcturus was actually handed over to the Reapers so they could start processing some ground troops? What does he really want with the Proto-Reaper? Maybe the whole Cronos Station thing is a distraction to keep Shepard out of the way. Was it entirely Anderson's idea to go charging into a beam that nobody knew anything about or was that Hackett's suggestion?

But then.. all the MP stuff indicates Hackett is "normal", not that MP lore is super reliable (or rather, we don't know whether it is reliable or not).

Anyway, it's been awhile since this idea has been brought up so maybe it's worth looking at again.
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