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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#40101
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:32

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paxxton wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

paxxton wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

social.bioware.com/898431/polls/41016/

Hacket poll is out.

Seems at minimum, 1/4-1/3 of players find Hackett at least a *bit* suspicious.

Still very outnumbered by those who don't think that at all.

Hackett is more indoctrinated than Shepard, TIM and Rana Thanoptis combined! Everybody accuses other obvious candidates for indoctrination but seems to overlook the one character that poses as a beacon of righteousness. And that's exactly where indoctrination would go unnoticed by anyone.


I just don't see ANY in game evidence to support this. He even rejects Control and chooses destroy. The only place you could say it's questionable is that he's supporting the race to the beam, but in his words it's either that or let them bleed you slowly. So if you want to have a fighthing change at destroying them there is no other option, and in reality, in game evidence supports this. Reapers are everywhere. Also, all of this has taken place in a period of just a few months. 

Anderson however has been close to reapers, so he could be indoctrinated as proximity is an issue. And if it's his plan then sure. But Hackett is going along with it because it's the best option they have. Hackett didn't devise the strategy IIRC. Anderson did. Hackett is working on all the best intel he has, and he's trusting people he has always trusted. So no to Hackett but possibly yes to Anderson at the end with the beam run.

Also, if you're using Mars as an example, Liara was doing some digging through prothean sites and started crossing paths with cerberus which was a clue to her she was onto something, wasn't it? I think that was why Hackett was behind Mars. Also, post arrival put the reapers very close to invasion. They had to take whatever they could, investigate every possible option at that point. If hackett said not to Mars, that would actually be more suspious.

And the first thing Liara says is expressing her surprise at why would Hackett send Shepard to Mars. I'm not saying he's definitely indoctrinated but he might be.


A big, big big big big big big thing we need to consider is...

If Shepard is undergoing indoctrination, while following the Destroy path until NEARLY THE VERY END...

Why can't Hackett?

They'd both be under the very most high level subtle form of indoctrination, where they still 100% feel their actions are their own, and are even given 90%+ autonamy to do what they wish.

Remember that another big point is that to the Reapers, this IS NOT A WAR. This is a HARVEST. Us killing husks means nothing. Us killing a few Destroyers is annoying, but easy to deal with. Us killing a few Reapers only proves humanities worth to become a Reaper. Reapers are still 100% sure they're going to win and utterly fulfill this cycle with perfection.

Hackett can do all he wants. As long as he's making the Crucible (again proving humanity's worth), the Reapers win.

Arrival also showed how a single character can enter a facility and get possibly indoctrinated in the process. Hackett may be the leader of the Alliance military but I find it interesting that he's so involved with the Project (yes, I know there's so many proper story details that explain this bit though).

#40102
demersel
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:34

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BleedingUranium wrote...

@Swoby

You do realise that with the Alliance Parlement and Udina dead, Hackett is the de facto leader of youmanatee, right?



Now if only the deaths of both the Allince parliament and Udina were not weird and out of place at all.....

#40103
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:39

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paxxton wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

social.bioware.com/898431/polls/41016/

Hacket poll is out.

Seems at minimum, 1/4-1/3 of players find Hackett at least a *bit* suspicious.

Still very outnumbered by those who don't think that at all.

Hackett is more indoctrinated than Shepard, TIM and Rana Thanoptis combined! Everybody accuses other obvious candidates for indoctrination but seems to overlook the one character that poses as a beacon of righteousness. And that's exactly where indoctrination would go unnoticed by anyone.


Two simple question regarding Hackett beeing Indoctrinated, when and how?

I must be sounding like a broken record by now, but Hacket has for everything we are shown in all three Mass Effect games had zero contact with Reaper tech and no direct proximity to a Reaper.

He is a fleet Admiral to the bone, we have never seen him off a ship, never had him mentioned as beeing anywhere but on a ship, no groud missions, nothing. Beyond that he spends allmost all of ME3 overlooking the Crucible project safely hidden away from the Reaper and even as we hit Earth he is still on a ship.

As I allready said Hacket has no known contact with any kind of Reaper tech and if you ask me some of the worst storytelling you can do is making a reval which is not backed by player knowledge in at least some way. But then again under a littral perspective they allready did that.

When I played the Demo back in February, the first thought after hearing Anderson asking why they hadn't heard from Hackett was that either he was dead or indoctrinated. Then in the full game he happily pops out of the blue and delays direct orders from Admiral Anderson. Oh, and Shepard follows that without a second thought.


Communications were knocked out or damaged as you can tell in the ship when he's telling you to go to Mars. He could not communicate well. The mars communication is actually the only one from him that is that bad and barely working IIRC.

Maybe but Liara's smart. She would've deduced why Hackett sent Shepard there. Unless Hackett wasn't actually cooperating with her on the search for the Crucible. IIRC she's never acknowledged their joint efforts.


I think this little bit is good youtu.be/9p2ro6Nu1GA

Just another thing to put in my 'Liara knows more than she lets on' pile.

(of course she wouldn't know about the Prothian/god revelation, but maybe other things. How would a Prothian beacon know that another beacon was on Thessia there? Are they connected?)

#40104
Home run MF
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:39

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demersel wrote...

By the way, i don't remember where, but i think somewhere in in the games in some doiloge it is said that Earthborn Shepard's hometown is actually Rio... I think is was in some diologe with Ash back in ME1...


Nope, it's never specified where earthborn Shepard was born.

#40105
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:41

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Home run MF wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Maybe but Liara's smart. She would've deduced why Hackett sent Shepard there. Unless Hackett wasn't actually cooperating with her on the search for the Crucible. IIRC she's never acknowledged their joint efforts.


Liara on Mars: Hackett knew it, too. He contacted me, asking if I would use my resources as the Shadow Broker to find a way to stop the Reapers.
My search led me here. Hackett got me access to the Archives and kept me updated on your status.


Oh yeah I was about to say that.

Hackett has the chase for the Crucible started. That's 'interesting' enough for me.

#40106
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:41

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demersel wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

@Swoby

You do realise that with the Alliance Parlement and Udina dead, Hackett is the de facto leader of youmanatee, right?



Now if only the deaths of both the Allince parliament and Udina were not weird and out of place at all.....


What? They aren't weird or out of place Posted Image Well, other than not knowing what Udina's motives were.

#40107
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:45

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BleedingUranium wrote...

@Swoby

You do realise that with the Alliance Parlement and Udina dead, Hackett is the de facto leader of youmanatee, right?


Yes.

It's...weird.

When you talk to TIM, its as though he regards Shepard and the allied Crucible forces, just as we regard Cerberus and TIM.

While he's crazy to want to subjugate the Reapers, lots of other details from him seem to hint at something far more illuminating than 'we must boom go die Reapers'.

I'm getting the nagging feeling that while Cerberus/TIM sucks morally, they may have been potential competition for Hackett, and that's ...again, weird. And concerning.

#40108
demersel
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:47

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BleedingUranium wrote...

What? They aren't weird or out of place Posted Image Well, other than not knowing what Udina's motives were.


Soo  ambitious politician by chance gets to be de-facto leader of humanity... What is the first thing he does? Plot's a coup and gets himself killed. 


Allience parlament at arcturus station. arcturus station was wiped out by a surprise reaper attack... The catch is that it was Hackett's fitfth fleet that was aasigned with the protection of arcturus station, and it was Hackett's personal responsobility.... Sooo, how is it if attack was a surprise one, his fleet is relatively intact at the cost of sacrificing another full fleet, and yet the arcturus staton is completely destroyed...hhm?

#40109
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:47

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BleedingUranium wrote...

demersel wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

@Swoby

You do realise that with the Alliance Parlement and Udina dead, Hackett is the de facto leader of youmanatee, right?



Now if only the deaths of both the Allince parliament and Udina were not weird and out of place at all.....


What? They aren't weird or out of place Posted Image Well, other than not knowing what Udina's motives were.


The entire Parlement was collected together. All other leaders. They all die. Hackett gets away.

#40110
AresKeith
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:48

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Home run MF wrote...

demersel wrote...

By the way, i don't remember where, but i think somewhere in in the games in some doiloge it is said that Earthborn Shepard's hometown is actually Rio... I think is was in some diologe with Ash back in ME1...


Nope, it's never specified where earthborn Shepard was born.


My guess would be Vancouver

#40111
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:53

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SwobyJ wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

@Swoby

You do realise that with the Alliance Parlement and Udina dead, Hackett is the de facto leader of youmanatee, right?


Yes.

It's...weird.

When you talk to TIM, its as though he regards Shepard and the allied Crucible forces, just as we regard Cerberus and TIM.

While he's crazy to want to subjugate the Reapers, lots of other details from him seem to hint at something far more illuminating than 'we must boom go die Reapers'.

I'm getting the nagging feeling that while Cerberus/TIM sucks morally, they may have been potential competition for Hackett, and that's ...again, weird. And concerning.


They see us the same way we see them because TIM/Cerberus is the exact opposite, while being the same as Hackett/Alliance. They're mirrors of each other, but the reflection is the opposite instead of the same. They're foils, that's the term I was looking for.

That's part of the reason I don't think Hackett is indoctrinated at all. From a story perspective, character foils should always remain that. In the same way an Alliance soldier is the equal and opposite of a Cerberus trooper, Hackett is the equal and opposite of TIM. TIM is the posterboy for Control, while Hackett is the posterboy for destroy. Even more than Shepard or Anderson.

#40112
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:55

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SwobyJ wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

demersel wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

@Swoby

You do realise that with the Alliance Parlement and Udina dead, Hackett is the de facto leader of youmanatee, right?



Now if only the deaths of both the Allince parliament and Udina were not weird and out of place at all.....


What? They aren't weird or out of place Posted Image Well, other than not knowing what Udina's motives were.


The entire Parlement was collected together. All other leaders. They all die. Hackett gets away.


Makes sense to me. Hackett was almost certainly on his ship, and the Reapers are going to destroy the station before bothering with the pesky human ships bothering them.

#40113
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:58

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BleedingUranium wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

@Swoby

You do realise that with the Alliance Parlement and Udina dead, Hackett is the de facto leader of youmanatee, right?


Yes.

It's...weird.

When you talk to TIM, its as though he regards Shepard and the allied Crucible forces, just as we regard Cerberus and TIM.

While he's crazy to want to subjugate the Reapers, lots of other details from him seem to hint at something far more illuminating than 'we must boom go die Reapers'.

I'm getting the nagging feeling that while Cerberus/TIM sucks morally, they may have been potential competition for Hackett, and that's ...again, weird. And concerning.


They see us the same way we see them because TIM/Cerberus is the exact opposite, while being the same as Hackett/Alliance. They're mirrors of each other, but the reflection is the opposite instead of the same. They're foils, that's the term I was looking for.

That's part of the reason I don't think Hackett is indoctrinated at all. From a story perspective, character foils should always remain that. In the same way an Alliance soldier is the equal and opposite of a Cerberus trooper, Hackett is the equal and opposite of TIM. TIM is the posterboy for Control, while Hackett is the posterboy for destroy. Even more than Shepard or Anderson.


That's true. Anderson and Shepard are more 'stop the Reapers' than 'let's gut the bastards!' exactly.

I would find it really neat if:

1)Hackett and TIM are NOT indoctrinated.
2)Both believe their respective versions of the Crucible will achieve victory.
3)Neither does, or at least, its not so simple as just 'it working'.

It's just that the main story of the game focuses on the Alliance side of things and as Cerberus as understandably the antagonist.

#40114
demersel
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 08:06

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The strange thing is that in the beginning and even at cronos station Illusive man doesn't want crucible. He doesn't want to use it. And then he suddenly does. That is very weird.

#40115
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 08:15

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SwobyJ wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

@Swoby

You do realise that with the Alliance Parlement and Udina dead, Hackett is the de facto leader of youmanatee, right?


Yes.

It's...weird.

When you talk to TIM, its as though he regards Shepard and the allied Crucible forces, just as we regard Cerberus and TIM.

While he's crazy to want to subjugate the Reapers, lots of other details from him seem to hint at something far more illuminating than 'we must boom go die Reapers'.

I'm getting the nagging feeling that while Cerberus/TIM sucks morally, they may have been potential competition for Hackett, and that's ...again, weird. And concerning.


They see us the same way we see them because TIM/Cerberus is the exact opposite, while being the same as Hackett/Alliance. They're mirrors of each other, but the reflection is the opposite instead of the same. They're foils, that's the term I was looking for.

That's part of the reason I don't think Hackett is indoctrinated at all. From a story perspective, character foils should always remain that. In the same way an Alliance soldier is the equal and opposite of a Cerberus trooper, Hackett is the equal and opposite of TIM. TIM is the posterboy for Control, while Hackett is the posterboy for destroy. Even more than Shepard or Anderson.


That's true. Anderson and Shepard are more 'stop the Reapers' than 'let's gut the bastards!' exactly.

I would find it really neat if:

1)Hackett and TIM are NOT indoctrinated.
2)Both believe their respective versions of the Crucible will achieve victory.
3)Neither does, or at least, its not so simple as just 'it working'.

It's just that the main story of the game focuses on the Alliance side of things and as Cerberus as understandably the antagonist.


Right, but that's the point. Cerberus is what the Alliance (us) would become if we were indoctrinated. They're the evil foil. Not evil per se, but bad guys, dark side, etc. This is emphasised in that Shepard always introduces himself in ME3 as Alliance Navy, and never as a Council Spectre.

In ME1 Shepard becomes a Spectre working for the Council, but remains Alliance at heart.
In ME2 Shepard works with Cerberus, but remains Alliance at heart.
In ME3, Shepard works for himself, or the whole galaxy, take your pick, but remains Alliance at heart.

It's part of the reason (in-universe) he still goes by the title "Commander". Techinically he had no need to use that title from the moment he became a Spectre.

#40116
paxxton
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 08:24

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demersel wrote...

The strange thing is that in the beginning and even at cronos station Illusive man doesn't want crucible. He doesn't want to use it. And then he suddenly does. That is very weird.

TIM doesn't want to use the Crucible, rather to blackmail the Reapers that he could use it if they don't obey him.

#40117
paxxton
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 08:25

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Not funny.

Modifié par paxxton, 26 octobre 2012 - 09:10 .

#40118
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 08:31

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demersel wrote...

The strange thing is that in the beginning and even at cronos station Illusive man doesn't want crucible. He doesn't want to use it. And then he suddenly does. That is very weird.


"solving the Reaper threat"

"dominate and harness the Reapers' power"

"Imagine how strong humanity could be if we controlled them"

"You can't defeat the Reapers, even with the Prothian data" (so what does TIM have on top of that?)

"You'd do better than most, but the odds aren't in your favor" (if the cut dialogue about Reapers being other 'shepards' is true... yeah, the odds really are NOT in our favor)

"I don't want the Reapers destroyed"

"Harness their very essence to bring humanity to the apex of evolution"

"I don't expect you to understand Shepard, and I'm certainly not looking for your approval"

He smirks at Liara's "The data, its not here! It's being erased!"

"You've helped uncover the key to subjugating the Reapers" (the Prothian VI?)

"They're just trying to control us. Think about it, if they wanted all organic life destroyed, they could do it. There would be nothing left."

"I know them Shepard, I know how they think."

"No.. I'm saying they've got it right. Why kill when you can control?"

"No, I just... see things differently."

"Don't ever question my intentions. I've sacrificed more for humanity than you'll ever know."

"And don't assume you know me. My methods for dealing with the Reapers are simply more refined than yours."

"Poetic, but as usual, you miss the point. The world is more grey than you'd care to admit." (interesting to read this after ME2, which had many 'grey' moral issues with squadmates)

TIM then commands Kai Leng to take the VI and bring the data to him. He doesn't order to kill Shepard.

"On the contrary, we have achieved everything I have ever imagined.
Almost everything."

"You think that since I'm willing to use the enemy's tactics, that they're no longer my enemy?"

("With the Crucible we can end this.") "It's not that simple" (????)

"Your idealism is...admirable Shepard. But in the end our goals are simply too dispirate. I believe destroying the Reapers would be the worst mistake we could ever make."
"And nothing you will say can ever convince me otherwise."

"Besides, I've already acquired what you're looking for." (The Catalyst? He already had it?)

#40119
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 08:43

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What's interesting, and a cool part of his character, is that he never orders Shepard killed as you pointed out, but also Miranda as well. In the vids on Cronos he tells Kai Leng to deal with Miranda if she gets in his way, but doesn't actually say he wants her dead. What's odd is that this is consistent except for Mars, where he orders your VS killed.

On a related note, in hindsight, Horizon was such a trap, by both TIM and Harbinger. TIM admits to telling the Collectors the location of your VS, which he uses to make sure of where they're going to strike next, but what's more interesting is that you VS gets stasised by Seeker Swarms when the Collectors arrive, but is unhurt or captured when you finish the mission. They're just there, like nothing happened Posted Image The VS was talking with Lilith when the attack started, so was pretty close when stasised. Can anyone think of why he'd let your VS go?

#40120
SixG90
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 08:45

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BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

So, what's up people? Any news on Omega?


I was going to repost the Omega leak, but I then I realised the link I have saved is when you reposted it Posted ImagePosted Image


Well, one of you two could repost it, but only for me :PB)

Sooo, what happened here this week? Any interesting discussion/post I should go and read? New speculations? Anything new? :D

#40121
Rifneno
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 08:51

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Bill Casey wrote...

It's not a suggestion...
It's what the ****ing ending is...
The ending is shepard fighting indoctrination...
That's how they wanted to end it...

Two things are suggested by the breath scene...

1. Shepard wants to use the crucible to destroy the reapers
2. We will win

That's it...
You don't need anything else...


LOL. Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers. The weapon doesn't matter. Winning is only implied by the breath scene because you're still sticking your head in the sand at all the facts that point to the Crucible being a trick. You don't need anything else. Those of us capable of logical deduction do.

leonia42 wrote...

Ah, we're back to "Something is wrong with Hackett". The more you think about it, the more weird it gets. All of Hackett's responses in ME3 seem relatively basic. He doesn't want to understand the Reapers, he wants to beat them. But how can you beat an enemy if you don't understand its tactics? It's like that line from Vigil, feels like Sun Tzu is relevant here. Who points you to the Crucible plans at just the right moment? Who sends you alone to Object Rho? Who has armed guards with him on the Normandy?

I'm not sure whether it's indoctrination or what but something isn't quite right. What if the fleet that he sacrificed at Arcturus was actually handed over to the Reapers so they could start processing some ground troops? What does he really want with the Proto-Reaper? Maybe the whole Cronos Station thing is a distraction to keep Shepard out of the way. Was it entirely Anderson's idea to go charging into a beam that nobody knew anything about or was that Hackett's suggestion?


This is simply not true. Hackett isn't opposed to learning about the Reapers' tactics and such, he's opposed to TIM's insane scheme to control them. Remember what Hackett said after Sanctuary? Shepard was talking about all the lives TIM sacrificed for that information on how huskification and indoctrination works, and Hackett replies "It's useful intel, Commander... but you're right. The cost was too high." Hackett, not Shepard, is the one who says it's useful intel. Of course, I'm sure someone will twist this into saying "Hackett approved of what TIM did at Sanctuary! He's indoctrinated!" Because someone is always prattling on about Hackett being indoctrinated, and there's never anything substantial to it. My favorite was the original version: that Hackett is indoctrinated because he says we can't beat the Reapers conventionally, and we know that we can beat the Reapers conventionally because only someone indoctrinated like Hackett says otherwise. Circular logic is awesome.

What if he sacrificed the fleet so they could get processed? WHAT? It's basic combat. When faced with an overwhelming force, it's not at all uncommon for part of the underdog side to have some stay behind and hold off the enemy while the others retreat. Because the choice is "some of us die" or "we all die". I'd like to know how they managed to take a fleet of starships alive anyhow. I know "Hackett's indoctrinated!" topics are all the rage, but just once, just one time, can we have one that holds more water than a sieve?

... Oh my GOD. The thread just goes on and on like this for the next 8 hours? ... I need to go get some asprin.

#40122
spotlessvoid
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 08:58

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What if glyph is a Reaper agent

#40123
Rifneno
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 09:01

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spotlessvoid wrote...

What if glyph is a Reaper agent


We've discussed it, and there's a fair bit of circumstantial evidence.  It's definitely much, much less retarded than Hackett is indoctrinated theory.

#40124
BleedingUranium
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 09:04

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mrs.N7 wrote...
Well, one of you two could repost it, but only for me Posted ImagePosted Image

Sooo, what happened here this week? Any interesting discussion/post I should go and read? New speculations? Anything new? Posted Image


Here you go:

"Mass Effect 3 Omega DLC Spoilers

Shepard helps Aria T'Loak retake Omega
At the station suddenly attack us legions of Collectors.

Shepard learns the truth about Omega {station for the production collectors by reapers}
In addition, he finds the capsule of the Protheans.
We also learn why Illusion Man needed Omega
{transport the remains of the human reaper from outside the Omega 4 relay, and created the army on the basis of technology gained from the collectors base}
We will learn about the past Aria T'Loak about the death
of her daughter, and her former relationship with Wrex.
Harbinger will also return and Raymond Ashe

And much much more{A lot of the content}


Mass Effect 3 Guardian DLC Spoilers

The truth is close.Discover the mysteries and secrets
hidden in the heart of every civilization.

What is the Citadel. Is just the heart of every advanced
civilization?
Or perhaps lies in the interior of information that no
one has ever discovered?

Shepard gets into the mysteries part of the Citadel and
discover brutal truth about the Keepers and a trap which
is the Citadel.
The truth has never been so close.Go through the portal
and visit the dark world of Reapers{"Homeworld"}
{The place where the Keepers are created}
Learn more about indoctrination,discover how work the
collective intelligence and more.

Discover the truth in January


While most, actually all but one, DLC leaks before have turned out to be true, don't fully commit yourself to the above information. It could be completely true or completely false, we really have no idea. Personally, I think it looks quite promising, though I've always been one of the more optimistic Prime people here. It even sets up Protheans in MP, which is the only leak that hasn't proven true yet!

#40125
Andromidius
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 09:09

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Interesting. Let's hope its got some grain of truth in it.

I will be very disappointed if there are no Collectors in Omega. I really want to get it before spoilers, but honestly after everything I can't risk my sanity like that.
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