80611 réponses à ce sujet

[shadoww6021]

Restrider wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

The thing is it's a long personalized trilogy with a huge emotional investment in all the characters, especially the protagonist. It's not some trippy movie where you don't know exactly what is really going on, but you're not that attached to the characters that it supersedes your appreciation of the art factor of the ambiguous ending. The highly emotional impact of the characters and their relationship with the protagonist you've been shaping for hundreds of hours shouldn't be abandoned in the name of artsy vagueness, especially when there is that tremendous amount of ambiguity about everything. I understand letting things run their course, but the point has been made and this story deserves more answers than what we got

Shameless,I know.

My point is the indoctrination of the player base has been wildly successful. Time to take the next step and blow their minds. There really should be an explanation provided on what actually happened because it's too open ended. Things need to be clarified at least somewhat

That's my thinking. Also, it then is elevated beyond what it is. Any media that can pull off such a masterfully done mindscrew to the point where only a minority got it until the final reveal is truly one that people will never forget and will have a kind of legendary status.

Who knows, if this was really intentional, fleshed out and planned, this might have impact even in sciences like psychology, anthropology and political studies.
You have a large number of test-subjects, you have the numbers (legacy save, polls etc.) and then you can start to work through all the data.
It really may be a good way to study RL-indoctrination and propaganda...

It's truly amazing when a game can be seen from a social science perspective. Even if the indoctrination theory is not true (personally i believe it is) we could study the various endings and the way people react to them, such as a person may see synthesis as a means to better the universe, though another would believe that it is against all sense of freedom and moral obligation. And if the indoctrination theory is true we can see that some people will sit down and believe everything that is being shown to them, much like someone who is indoctrinated, where as others would see the holes and similarities to other indoctrination attempts, such as the dreams. i would like to see how this plays out from this perspective.

[Rifneno]

You know, while we're discussing whispers, I got a $200 gaming headset. The kind that's meant to bring out all the virtually inaudible sounds so you can hear enemies approaching (and then get banned for map hacks). I noticed that there's whispers in the main menu of the game with them. Figured I'd mention it since most people probably don't know about them. I didn't until recently. It could just be meant as the Normandy's crew idly chatting with each other in the distance as you, as Shepard, sit at the console. Or it could be more sinister.

And I agree with Sareth Cousland. I've always thought that the dark energy thing was only going to be Starbinger's original lies to trick Shepard. Because as lauded as the dark energy plot was, it still doesn't work. Like a great many things in Mass Effect, it's based around a real scientific theory. In this case it's a theory about the ultimate end of the universe called the Big Rip. The thing is, the Big Rip threatens the entire universe. The Milky Way is one galaxy of hundreds of billions. The Reapers affect only this galaxy to our knowledge. And even if they are in others, it's only a few neighboring ones. Totally inconsequential to the universe at large. Karpyshyn was too good a writer with the science of this series to so epicly fail with the Big Rip. If he was going to use the dark energy theory, it was only in place of this "organic vs. synthetic conflict" nonsense starbrat spews now.

[shadoww6021]

Rifneno wrote...

 Like a great many things in Mass Effect, it's based around a real scientific theory. In this case it's a theory about the ultimate end of the universe called the Big Rip.

i thought they were going to use the great crunch theory weren't they? i suppose either way it would be a lot more believable to even the simplest of players either way then the current "story".

[Restrider]

Rankincountry wrote...

I had a thought on the topic of is Hackett indoctrinated, and it applies to other characters that we might be suspicious of but have no proof. One function of indoctrination that we haven't discussed much is that its mere existence could spread as much fear, panic and havoc behind the lines as the indoctrinated agents themselves. Think about it - it can affect anyone, its symptoms can be undetectable or attributed to stress for a long time. Anyone - friends, colleagues, family - anyone, could suddenly turn and no-one is immune.

Imagine the fear and mistrust this would cause - across the galaxy, whole communities will be tearing themselves apart over no more than suspicion. Those keen to settle scores could make accusations - mud sticks at the best of times, and think what a well-placed whisper could do in the environment of ME3.

For a real-world example, the British Special Operations Executive (SOE) from World War II is a good one. They leaked details of fictional missions that caused as much disruption to the Germans as the real ones they undertook (here's a wikipedia link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Executive). Almost certainly, as well as the Reapers setting us at each others' throats via the mere concept of indoctrinated forces, indoctrinated agents are themselves undertaking deception and psychological operations behind the lines.

So to bring it back to Hackett - it's most likely Hackett is exactly what he seems, a loyal Alliance Admiral doing his level best to win a war of survival. But with a few deceiving clues here and there that actually amount to blind alleys, the writers have us doubting our own CO.

Yes, ME3 lacked this kind of paranoia, where you cannot be sure who is a sleeper-agent or not.
Another good example of what you described would be the first seasons of BSG, where the survivors of the genocide found out that the Cylons are able to infiltrate the fleet through sleeper-agents, which did not know that they were evil themselves. It ended in some kind of witch hunt and full paranoia for some characters, who did not trust themselves anymore.

[DoomsdayDevice]

starlitegirlx wrote...

Jeff: (after Shepard is in the geth consensus). What if everything you're seeing is a simulation?

I didn't get to write the whole dialogue, but he basically says "how do you know you're really out?" and that it could still be a simulation.

Is that in the quote list, because that's pretty pertinent to the ending and IT. Actually, probably more so to us ITers. How do we really know if shepard gets out with destroy. The breath seem could be shepard thinking he/she is out after choosing destroy.

Yes, I posted this a few pages ago. Twice, even, but it was ignored.

In any case, the full version is in the quote thread, which is linked in my signature.

I thought it was great because what is said in the end about the unshackled AI telling us about reality, foreshadows the Reaper AI and the fake reality. And then it mentions missing important information as well.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 27 octobre 2012 - 11:32 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Guys, I just had some kind of epiphany about the meaning of the Crucible.

It's because of all the dialogue I've been collecting, that I'm suddenly seeing more theme consistency.

(Again, this is from the discussion with Seival, keep in mind)

It is the promise of power that corrupts. That is the Reapers' weapon. That is why power hungry people will keep the collector base. Tens of thousands of people were processed there to create the human Reaper, but the end justifies the means. The promise of power, to defeat the Reapers by using their own technology against them.

But in doing so, we once again take the path the Reapers set out for us. We must defeat them on our own terms. We must reach a technology level on our owns terms. I think that is why the relays were destroyed in the original ending. It was a symbol for freeing ourselves from Reaper tech, the paths laid out before us by others. We need to achieve our own future, like Legion says.

Just look at what Legion says after destroying the Collector base:

Legion: an interesting choice, Shepard Commander. Your species was offered everything Geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought.

True unity, understanding, transcendence... sound familiar? That is exactly what the Reapers are offering you in the synthesis ending, all on their terms. The path the Reapers lay out for us.

The fact that we build the Crucible without knowing what it does, is symbolic for the fact that organics literally aren't ready. By building the Crucible, we are again following the path others laid out for us. Technology beyond our comprehension. Using it will lead to our doom. That is why we literally need to blow it up.

Bumpity.

Also, in the last bit, I'm talking about blowing the crucible up metaphorically, within the illusion, just as the mass relays were destroyed inside the illusion.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 27 octobre 2012 - 11:32 .

[FFZero]

Okay nothing much has come out in the panel but Chris priestly just said they're working on a secret project X...

[Rankincountry]

FFZero wrote...

Okay nothing much has come out in the panel but Chris priestly just said they're working on a secret project X...

Ahahahahahahahahaha . *Picks self up off floor*

So another leak starts to look oddly on the money. Somewhere in Edmonton, the people who know what Bioware's whole plan is are watching the forums and laughing themselves silly. Probably while sat on a sofa made out of money.

Modifié par Rankincountry, 27 octobre 2012 - 11:47 .

[Rankincountry]

Restrider wrote...

Rankincountry wrote...

I had a thought on the topic of is Hackett indoctrinated, and it applies to other characters that we might be suspicious of but have no proof. One function of indoctrination that we haven't discussed much is that its mere existence could spread as much fear, panic and havoc behind the lines as the indoctrinated agents themselves. Think about it - it can affect anyone, its symptoms can be undetectable or attributed to stress for a long time. Anyone - friends, colleagues, family - anyone, could suddenly turn and no-one is immune.

Imagine the fear and mistrust this would cause - across the galaxy, whole communities will be tearing themselves apart over no more than suspicion. Those keen to settle scores could make accusations - mud sticks at the best of times, and think what a well-placed whisper could do in the environment of ME3.

For a real-world example, the British Special Operations Executive (SOE) from World War II is a good one. They leaked details of fictional missions that caused as much disruption to the Germans as the real ones they undertook (here's a wikipedia link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Executive). Almost certainly, as well as the Reapers setting us at each others' throats via the mere concept of indoctrinated forces, indoctrinated agents are themselves undertaking deception and psychological operations behind the lines.

So to bring it back to Hackett - it's most likely Hackett is exactly what he seems, a loyal Alliance Admiral doing his level best to win a war of survival. But with a few deceiving clues here and there that actually amount to blind alleys, the writers have us doubting our own CO.

Yes, ME3 lacked this kind of paranoia, where you cannot be sure who is a sleeper-agent or not.
Another good example of what you described would be the first seasons of BSG, where the survivors of the genocide found out that the Cylons are able to infiltrate the fleet through sleeper-agents, which did not know that they were evil themselves. It ended in some kind of witch hunt and full paranoia for some characters, who did not trust themselves anymore.

It was in ME3 to some extent, with the indoctrinated Hanar, Rana Thanoptis and the like - but I'm surprised that they didn't have an indoctrinated Normandy crew member just to scare things up. It wouldn't have needed to be a key character to have the desired effect.

I think though, that Bioware have got us doing it for them - look back on this thread and we are variously suspicious of characters even including Liara, James, Anderson and Hackett. 2 of our best friends (one of them is maybe our lover) our mentor and our fleet admiral. Crikey.  On our playthroughs we're watching conversations for the slightest tick, picking apart their lines for any trace of inconsistency or untruth. I just started a new playthrough of ME3 last night and realised I'm watching everyone.

It also made me realise what an incredibly dark and creepy game ME3 is. The atmosphere is so oppresive and the way it builds through the game is brilliantly done. Bad writing? F*** off with that, this is some of the best video game writing (and acting for that matter) you'll find. ME3 a bad game? So why do I keep going back for more?

[Restrider]

Andromidius wrote...
Indeed.  The two line up.  'Paragon' and 'Renegade' are arbitary numbers, just like EMS.  They represent strength, whether of compassion, ruthlessness or military strength.  None of them stop you from doing things, but each opens up new alternatives.

However my point is that maybe, after all the DLC is released...  We'll get that alternative route open up when our EMS is raised above a bar currently unobtainable.  Or one that is obtainable, but the ending hasn't been added in yet.  It would be delicious if a new option opened up beyond the Synthesis requirement, where Shepard realises things aren't adding up right and things aren't as they seem, and the illusion falls away as Starbinger desperately tries to retake control of the hallucination.

It wouldn't change any of the endings.  It wouldn't invalidate anyone's previous choices.  It would be the 'secret ending' then shows it was all a sham and Shepard overcomes the Reapers' greatest weapon.

Yeah, I had that idea, too.
I guess a mix between IT, Puzzle and maybe Deception Theory is the most reasonable to expect.
And to add, I think what Dr Okeer said about the genophage may illustrate how you have to beat indoctrination. Not saying that it is foreshadowing or whatever, I personally do not think it is, I only like that line. Okeer was such a badass. Oh, and what a shame Rana died :C .

[Dwailing]

Seriously? They've confirmed that they're working on a Secret Project X? Exact words? Well, if that's true, then BioWare really needs better security. . Either that, or they leaked it on purpose to give us hope.... I prefer the latter.

[Rankincountry]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Guys, I just had some kind of epiphany about the meaning of the Crucible.

It's because of all the dialogue I've been collecting, that I'm suddenly seeing more theme consistency.

(Again, this is from the discussion with Seival, keep in mind)

It is the promise of power that corrupts. That is the Reapers' weapon. That is why power hungry people will keep the collector base. Tens of thousands of people were processed there to create the human Reaper, but the end justifies the means. The promise of power, to defeat the Reapers by using their own technology against them.

But in doing so, we once again take the path the Reapers set out for us. We must defeat them on our own terms. We must reach a technology level on our owns terms. I think that is why the relays were destroyed in the original ending. It was a symbol for freeing ourselves from Reaper tech, the paths laid out before us by others. We need to achieve our own future, like Legion says.

Just look at what Legion says after destroying the Collector base:

Legion: an interesting choice, Shepard Commander. Your species was offered everything Geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought.

True unity, understanding, transcendence... sound familiar? That is exactly what the Reapers are offering you in the synthesis ending, all on their terms. The path the Reapers lay out for us.

The fact that we build the Crucible without knowing what it does, is symbolic for the fact that organics literally aren't ready. By building the Crucible, we are again following the path others laid out for us. Technology beyond our comprehension. Using it will lead to our doom. That is why we literally need to blow it up.

Bumpity.

Also, in the last bit, I'm talking about blowing the crucible up metaphorically, within the illusion, just as the mass relays were destroyed inside the illusion.

"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding."

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our
technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we
desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because
we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."


Theme consistency right back to ME1 - I think you might have nailed it. If I could, I'd frame your post and hang it up next to my PC.

[Andromidius]

Rifneno wrote...

You know, while we're discussing whispers, I got a $200 gaming headset. The kind that's meant to bring out all the virtually inaudible sounds so you can hear enemies approaching (and then get banned for map hacks). I noticed that there's whispers in the main menu of the game with them. Figured I'd mention it since most people probably don't know about them. I didn't until recently. It could just be meant as the Normandy's crew idly chatting with each other in the distance as you, as Shepard, sit at the console. Or it could be more sinister.

And I agree with Sareth Cousland. I've always thought that the dark energy thing was only going to be Starbinger's original lies to trick Shepard. Because as lauded as the dark energy plot was, it still doesn't work. Like a great many things in Mass Effect, it's based around a real scientific theory. In this case it's a theory about the ultimate end of the universe called the Big Rip. The thing is, the Big Rip threatens the entire universe. The Milky Way is one galaxy of hundreds of billions. The Reapers affect only this galaxy to our knowledge. And even if they are in others, it's only a few neighboring ones. Totally inconsequential to the universe at large. Karpyshyn was too good a writer with the science of this series to so epicly fail with the Big Rip. If he was going to use the dark energy theory, it was only in place of this "organic vs. synthetic conflict" nonsense starbrat spews now.

Unless of course the plan is smaller scale, and the idea is to preserve this galaxy (and maybe a few others) after the rest of the Universe has dispersed.  Of course it would still mean that the stars in this galaxy would eventually die, but hey.

Infact, it could also be a mega long term plan to artifcially induce the Big Crunch by maintaining a significant mass concentration for the rest of the universe to be pulled back into.

Or it could have been set in motion because natural events are being accellerated by overuse of Eezo, much like us with Global Warming. 

Who knows.

[FFZero]

Dwailing wrote...

Seriously? They've confirmed that they're working on a Secret Project X? Exact words? Well, if that's true, then BioWare really needs better security. . Either that, or they leaked it on purpose to give us hope.... I prefer the latter.

Yep, he didn't give any details since he was pressed for time but I'll try and find out some more info.

[Rankincountry]

FFZero wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Seriously? They've confirmed that they're working on a Secret Project X? Exact words? Well, if that's true, then BioWare really needs better security. . Either that, or they leaked it on purpose to give us hope.... I prefer the latter.

Yep, he didn't give any details since he was pressed for time but I'll try and find out some more info.

Anyone else think the leaks are planned? Bioware would make great politicians.

[Restrider]

Gallifreya wrote...

Here's something fun... For the loading screen that gives tips, are those bread crumbs on either side of the coffee cup? If not, what are they?

It just made me think, "Follow the bread crumbs and wake up."

Because coffee. And bread crumbs. And because it's the screen that gives advice. HEHEM.

I noticed that too.
And do you know what my first impression was?
"This is a futuristic spacecraft and everything seems neat and clean... WHY THE HELL ARE THERE CRUMBS?!? WHO DIRTIED MY DESK!??!! LIARA...!!????"

Modifié par Restrider, 27 octobre 2012 - 12:16 .

[Dwailing]

Rankincountry wrote...

FFZero wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Seriously? They've confirmed that they're working on a Secret Project X? Exact words? Well, if that's true, then BioWare really needs better security. . Either that, or they leaked it on purpose to give us hope.... I prefer the latter.

Yep, he didn't give any details since he was pressed for time but I'll try and find out some more info.

Anyone else think the leaks are planned? Bioware would make great politicians.

Yup. If they didn't leak things, we'd lose hope. And without hope, we might as well be machines, programmed to speculate like we're told.

Modifié par Dwailing, 27 octobre 2012 - 12:17 .

[estebanus]

Restrider wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Here's something fun... For the loading screen that gives tips, are those bread crumbs on either side of the coffee cup? If not, what are they?

It just made me think, "Follow the bread crumbs and wake up."

Because coffee. And bread crumbs. And because it's the screen that gives advice. HEHEM.

I noticed that too.
And do you know what my first impression was?
"This is a futuristic spacecraft and everything seems neat and clean... WHY THE HELL ARE THERE CRUMBS?!? WHO DIRTIED MY DESK!??!! LIARA...!!????"

And Why is there a USB-stick in the computer!

[estebanus]

eh...

Gallifreya wrote...

Here's something fun... For the loading screen that gives tips, are those bread crumbs on either side of the coffee cup? If not, what are they?

It just made me think, "Follow the bread crumbs and wake up."

Because coffee. And bread crumbs. And because it's the screen that gives advice. HEHEM.

THAT'S stretching it.

Modifié par estebanus, 27 octobre 2012 - 12:28 .

[Samtheman63]

biscuit crumbs is more likely

[Restrider]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I think the disdain many have for synthesis and it's supporters is more complex then a disagreement over a video game ending. The narcissism and faux intellectualism displayed In advocating for the complete and irreversible usurping of freedom of choice and annihilation of natural life, is in my opinion deeply unsettling. It shows a truly pretentious worldview and a deep disdain for humanity. People who think imposing their beliefs on others is not only justified, but morally superior, are profoundly conceited and dangerous to a free society. It is reprehensible and deserves to be called out for what it is. The fact that it's done with no assurance of it even being possible, and no knowledge of the consequences is even more appalling.

Agreed.
The problem with Synthesis and especially with its zealous supporters are the implications to the real world.
Free will and self determination are the highest goods there are, at least in my view.
Overruling these with some kind of agenda other's happen to depict as the best solution not only gives me a sour taste in the mouth, but actually scares me a bit. There are many examples in history, where this attitude leads to the biggest atrocities commited.

[Rankincountry]

This whole thing does feel like a sort of monster ARG. I can imagine that in the ME universe, you'd have scientists and engineers trying to understand indoctrination by looking at things like infrasound. You'd have psychologists analysing speech patterns. There'd be theory and counter-theory.

Not only that, in any invaded nation in any part of history, there have always been those willing to collaborate rather than fight. Check out the "Reapers are Innocent" thread.

Also I think there's an element of the same "my enemy's enemy is my friend" that, for example, led some people and groups in the West to speak up for the Soviet Union while denouncing their own governments during the Cold War, not because they were ideologically in agreement with the Soviet Union (though some obviously were), but because they saw their own government as corrupt and oppresive.

I think that when you look at some of the threads here, you start to see the player base splitting up almost along these sorts of lines.

[Rifneno]

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

You know, while we're discussing whispers, I got a $200 gaming headset. The kind that's meant to bring out all the virtually inaudible sounds so you can hear enemies approaching (and then get banned for map hacks). I noticed that there's whispers in the main menu of the game with them. Figured I'd mention it since most people probably don't know about them. I didn't until recently. It could just be meant as the Normandy's crew idly chatting with each other in the distance as you, as Shepard, sit at the console. Or it could be more sinister.

And I agree with Sareth Cousland. I've always thought that the dark energy thing was only going to be Starbinger's original lies to trick Shepard. Because as lauded as the dark energy plot was, it still doesn't work. Like a great many things in Mass Effect, it's based around a real scientific theory. In this case it's a theory about the ultimate end of the universe called the Big Rip. The thing is, the Big Rip threatens the entire universe. The Milky Way is one galaxy of hundreds of billions. The Reapers affect only this galaxy to our knowledge. And even if they are in others, it's only a few neighboring ones. Totally inconsequential to the universe at large. Karpyshyn was too good a writer with the science of this series to so epicly fail with the Big Rip. If he was going to use the dark energy theory, it was only in place of this "organic vs. synthetic conflict" nonsense starbrat spews now.

Unless of course the plan is smaller scale, and the idea is to preserve this galaxy (and maybe a few others) after the rest of the Universe has dispersed.  Of course it would still mean that the stars in this galaxy would eventually die, but hey.

Infact, it could also be a mega long term plan to artifcially induce the Big Crunch by maintaining a significant mass concentration for the rest of the universe to be pulled back into.

Or it could have been set in motion because natural events are being accellerated by overuse of Eezo, much like us with Global Warming. 

Who knows.

It doesn't work that way.  It's all or nothing.  Averting a dark energy apocalypse was never going to be their real motivation.

[Rankincountry]

Samtheman63 wrote...

biscuit crumbs is more likely

And if you hold the biscuit in the coffee for too long, saturating it and causing it to fall apart, it creates a new combination of coffee and biscuit - a "synthesis" if you will - mainly characterised by being a deeply unpleasant thing that ruins your break.

If that's not symbolism I don't know what is.

[Samtheman63]

Rankincountry wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

biscuit crumbs is more likely

And if you hold the biscuit in the coffee for too long, saturating it and causing it to fall apart, it creates a new combination of coffee and biscuit - a "synthesis" if you will - mainly characterised by being a deeply unpleasant thing that ruins your break.

If that's not symbolism I don't know what is.

very true