80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Ithurael wrote..
Synthesis goes against every core theme of ME 1-2.9

Control is slightly more acceptable for renegade players I suppose but it breaks the reapers in ME1 - 2 (we are each a nation, independant)

Destroy is more acceptable as it - without a shadow of a doubt - stops the reapers and the cycle and it keeps to the core themes of ME.

Refuse is the MOST in universe and acceptable ending for shepard - except you all die.

And IT at this point is an interpretation, not canon.

It doesn't actually.  Technophobia is not a core theme of Mass Effect and Synthesis falls quite well with Legion's sacrifice.

Like I said, the current endings were bad writing, what more is there to say?

I know what it is.

Uploading code to upgrade a machine race = forcefully changing every living beeing into some kind of machine/oragnic hybrid...yep totally the same.

Also Synthesis and why it is so despicable has nothing to do with technophobia.

It is the fact that you based only on starchilds words is forcing this change on everything and everyone.

You are doing this in spite of several examples of how horrific Synthesis can end, many of which are active tools used by the Reapers, the supposed leader of which is telling you to do it.

Every single Reaper unit as well as the Reapers themselves are terrifying examples of Synthesis, the only person in the series to argue Synthesis was the Indoctrinated Saren and if you wnat an example of non Reaper Synthesis going horribly wrong, look towards Overlord. It even uses the same theme of green for it.

In short you are forcing something on the entire galaxy which on numerous occasions has resulted in nothing short of a "nightmare factory" (to quote Garrus) and you are doing this solely on the word of a beeing who says it is the leader of the Reapers.

Can you really not see the problem here?

[Heimdall]

Samtheman63 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations

Nice, I totally didn't know any of that <_<

I just realize what you choose to interpret as symptoms of indoctrination a can also be PTSD and actual events rather than hallucination.  Which I find more likely.

PTSD does not mak you see ghostly presences, nor does it make you trust your enemy

What part of "actual events" and "bad writing" don't you understand?

[Leonia]

What part of Walters has a freaking degree in psychology do you not understand?

[spotlessvoid]

Project Overlord

Synthesis

[Heimdall]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Ithurael wrote..
Synthesis goes against every core theme of ME 1-2.9

Control is slightly more acceptable for renegade players I suppose but it breaks the reapers in ME1 - 2 (we are each a nation, independant)

Destroy is more acceptable as it - without a shadow of a doubt - stops the reapers and the cycle and it keeps to the core themes of ME.

Refuse is the MOST in universe and acceptable ending for shepard - except you all die.

And IT at this point is an interpretation, not canon.

It doesn't actually.  Technophobia is not a core theme of Mass Effect and Synthesis falls quite well with Legion's sacrifice.

Like I said, the current endings were bad writing, what more is there to say?

I know what it is.

Uploading code to upgrade a machine race = forcefully changing every living beeing into some kind of machine/oragnic hybrid...yep totally the same.

Also Synthesis and why it is so despicable has nothing to do with technophobia.

It is the fact that you based only on starchilds words is forcing this change on everything and everyone.

You are doing this in spite of several examples of how horrific Synthesis can end, many of which are active tools used by the Reapers, the supposed leader of which is telling you to do it.

Every single Reaper unit as well as the Reapers themselves are terrifying examples of Synthesis, the only person in the series to argue Synthesis was the Indoctrinated Saren and if you wnat an example of non Reaper Synthesis going horribly wrong, look towards Overlord. It even uses the same theme of green for it.

In short you are forcing something on the entire galaxy which on numerous occasions has resulted in nothing short of a "nightmare factory" (to quote Garrus) and you are doing this solely on the word of a beeing who says it is the leader of the Reapers.

Can you really not see the problem here?

If you supported Legion foribly altering the minds of his entire species, you have no grounds to oppose synthesis.

Regardless, I did not come here to discuss synthesis.  I would like someone to actually tell me about all these volumes of evidence IT supporters keep telling me they have.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Samtheman63 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations

Nice, I totally didn't know any of that <_<

I just realize what you choose to interpret as symptoms of indoctrination a can also be PTSD and actual events rather than hallucination.  Which I find more likely.

PTSD does not mak you see ghostly presences, nor does it make you trust your enemy

PTSD also includes a deep fear of the events and places which caused the PTSD as pointed out not just once, but twice in ME3. In short if Shepard suffered from PTSD he should be avoiding small children and...Reapers...yeah he dosent really fullfill that last part does he? <_<

[Davik Kang]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I think those things were put there to communicate how badly hurt and disorientated Shepard is at that point.  That's all.

GGs.  Nice having you here for the discussion.

3 dream sequences followed by a bizarre sequence with the same conditions.  Coincedence.  Stupid writers.

I must just be a true idiot, because when other games or films have a sequence that resembles dream sequences, I always assume they want us to think "Hmm... is this a dream?"

Guess I'm just a sucker.  In fact, come to think of it, how do we know any of the dream sequences are dreams?  Maybe Shepard really is on Earth, chasing a small boy through a forest, then quickly jumps back on the Normandy and goes to sleep.  If the writers had meant those sequences to be dreams, they would've written "DREAM SEQUENCE" at the top in flashing letters.  Damn my overactive imagination for assuming things that aren't there.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 27 octobre 2012 - 03:44 .

[Heimdall]

leonia42 wrote...

What part of Walters has a freaking degree in psychology do you not understand?

Well it certainly hasn't done much for his writing ability, has it?

[Galifreya]

estebanus wrote...

eh...

Gallifreya wrote...

Here's something fun... For the loading screen that gives tips, are those bread crumbs on either side of the coffee cup? If not, what are they?

It just made me think, "Follow the bread crumbs and wake up."

Because coffee. And bread crumbs. And because it's the screen that gives advice. HEHEM.

THAT'S stretching it.

I know. =P I said it was fun, not a smoking gun.

[Samtheman63]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...
Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations

Nice, I totally didn't know any of that <_<

I just realize what you choose to interpret as symptoms of indoctrination a can also be PTSD and actual events rather than hallucination.  Which I find more likely.

PTSD does not mak you see ghostly presences, nor does it make you trust your enemy

What part of "actual events" and "bad writing" don't you understand?

So the ghost child is real?  And electricuting yourself makes you into an AI? And jumping down a hole turns the whole galaxy into synthetic/organic hybrids?

No is the answer

[Home run MF]

Why are literalists so obsessed with bad writing? If you think something is poorly made why do you defend it so passionately?
To me it sounds like you filled the parts you don't like with your own interpretation and disregarded everything else that does not fit your point of view.

[Leonia]

Lord Aesir wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

What part of Walters has a freaking degree in psychology do you not understand?

Well it certainly hasn't done much for his writing ability, has it?

Dude, he wrote arguably the best characters in ME1. He gets a lot of flack, yeah (not all of it deserved..), but he's written some amazing characters. Also he has a pretty good idea of what PTSD is, there's even examples in the game of NPCs with the actual symptoms. You can form the opinion of "bad writing" but don't dismiss everything because of it.

Modifié par leonia42, 27 octobre 2012 - 03:48 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lord Aesir wrote...

If you supported Legion foribly altering the minds of his entire species, you have no grounds to oppose synthesis.

Regardless, I did not come here to discuss synthesis.  I would like someone to actually tell me about all these volumes of evidence IT supporters keep telling me they have.

Synthesis as used in Mass Effect is the combining of Organic and Synthetic material, it has nothing to do with what Legion did.

Also Legion did not alter the minds of his species in any way. He uploaded a data upgrade to the consensus which would render the Geth immune to the Quarians Cyber Weapon allowing them to fight back and not get destroyed. At no point did he tamper with their minds.

Unless you refer to the Heretic Geth mission form ME2 where Legion is split on the choice, leaving it to Shepard. I picked Destroy there as well because as Samara, jack and Garrus points out rewriting the Heretics would be akin to Indoctrination. In fact Samara specifically mentions how altering how someone thinks might as well be killing them as it is no longer the same person and Jack has this wonderful line "if you tampered with my head, made me nod and smile to everything, idd rather you just put a bullet in my brain."

Compare that line to the supposed utopia of Synthesis despite several people holding deep and probably unresolveable grudges against the Reapers (Javik as an example for starters) and aks yourself why there is nothing showing javik continuing to fight the Reapers.

But as for compiled evidence, look towards the first page of the thread, usualy alot of things are compiled there and someone did a top ten best pieces of evidence not long ago. Look around, it is not hard to find.

[spotlessvoid]

Geth heretics were hostile to organics and orthodox geth. They made the decision to infringe on the right of life and liberty. There were only two options. Synthesis is unnecessary and a permanent and dangerous forcible change of innocent lives, 100% different.

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 27 octobre 2012 - 03:53 .

[Heimdall]

Davik Kang wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
I think those things were put there to communicate how badly hurt and disorientated Shepard is at that point.  That's all.

GGs.  Nice having you here for the discussion.

3 dream sequences followed by a bizarre sequence with the same conditions.  Coincedence.  Stupid writers.

I must just be a true idiot, because when other games or films have a sequence that resembles dream sequences, I always assume they want us to think "Hmm... is this a dream?"

Guess I'm just a sucker.  In fact, come to think of it, how do we know any of the dream sequences are dreams?  Maybe Shepard really is on Earth, chasing a small boy through a forest, then quickly jumps back on the Normandy and goes to sleep.  If the writers had meant those sequences to be dreams, they would've written "DREAM SEQUENCE" at the top in flashing letters.  Damn my overactive imagination for assuming things that aren't there.

*Sigh* Is the sarcasm really necessary?

If the "bizarre sequence" were not so different from the others, I might think you were right.

As such, the only resemblance to the dreams is squiggly lines on the edge of the screen.  I can't think of anything else terribly relevant that bears similarity.  Why would those dreams have been indoctrination if Shepard was nowhere near a source of indoctrination when they happened anyway?  I know enough about video game development that they wouldn't shy from repurposeing the same effect rather than creating another.

[Andromidius]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Regardless, I did not come here to discuss synthesis.  I would like someone to actually tell me about all these volumes of evidence IT supporters keep telling me they have.

Page 1, post 1.  Go read it.

Again.

[Eryri]

Home run MF wrote...

Why are literalists so obsessed with bad writing? If you think something is poorly made why do you defend it so passionately?
To me it sounds like you filled the parts you don't like with your own interpretation and disregarded everything else that does not fit your point of view.

Lord knows. Some of them will excoriate vast sections of the story, but when they hear about our interpretation of the ending that might improve it from nonsensical gibberish to something that actually makes sense, they throw their toys out of the pram. It's really quite perverse.

[CmdrShep80]

paxxton wrote...

How come when I add text color to my posts via the extended form's control, it is ignored when I post it?

I had this problem too.  I had to go through BBC code to do it.  Though every time I edited something it would mess up the BBC code too

[Andromidius]

Eryri wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

Why are literalists so obsessed with bad writing? If you think something is poorly made why do you defend it so passionately?
To me it sounds like you filled the parts you don't like with your own interpretation and disregarded everything else that does not fit your point of view.

Lord knows. Some of them will excoriate vast sections of the story, but when they hear about our interpretation of the ending that might improve it from nonsensical gibberish to something that actually makes sense, they throw their toys out of the pram. It's really quite perverse.

Yep.  Especially when they'll ignore certain parts of the story, or make up stuff that has no basis or baring in the ME universe.  And then accuse us of headcanon.  Pot, meet kettle.

Not to mention if the ending is 'bad writing' it must mean they like bad writing since they keep lapping it up, saying how brilliant the endings are, and never leave the forums.

[paxxton]

Colored hello?

EDIT: Doesn't work and I dunno how to use BBCodes.

Modifié par paxxton, 27 octobre 2012 - 04:00 .

[Davik Kang]

Lord Aesir wrote...
*Sigh* Is the sarcasm really necessary?

If the "bizarre sequence" were not so different from the others, I might think you were right.

As such, the only resemblance to the dreams is squiggly lines on the edge of the screen.  I can't think of anything else terribly relevant that bears similarity.  Why would those dreams have been indoctrination if Shepard was nowhere near a source of indoctrination when they happened anyway?  I know enough about video game development that they wouldn't shy from repurposeing the same effect rather than creating another.

I have no qualm with you believing in Synthesis, liking or disliking the ending, believing the dreams are indoctrination or anything else, believing the Child is trying to indoctrinate you, believing any of the final scenes are a dream, a hallucination, or reality.

Honestly.  Everyone has their own opinion on all this stuff and I actually think it's healthy.  Makes the end much more interesting.

The only thing I can't understand, can't believe, about what you said, is that the idea of the ending possibly being about indoctrination, or being a dream, was something that the writers did not intend.  I am completely baffled.  Staggered.  I literally cannot comprehend this opinion.

To be clear: maybe the end is indoctrination, maybe not.  I don't know.

Maybe the end is a dream, maybe not.  I don't know.

But the writers put in an incredible amount of stuff to get you thinking along thse lines.  To say the writers never intended these questions, imo, is crazy.  It's like wilful ignorance.  Intentionally avoiding things to keep to your premise that the writers are bad at their jobs.

I can't make it simpler than this.  You want to believe that the content in the end alluding to dreams and indoctrination is a remarkably fortunate coincidence, go ahead.  But there's really nothing more to say in this case.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 27 octobre 2012 - 04:14 .

[401 Kill]

paxxton wrote...

Colored hello?

Hello!

Edit: Didn't work.
Edit2: Yes!

Modifié par 401 Kill, 27 octobre 2012 - 04:03 .

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Davik Kang wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

We know the EC isn't canon because synthesis is portrayed as good. End of discussion

I'm pretty sure the Synthesis ending is a dream.  Did you see the thing I pointed out about clevernoob's find?  It went over his head completely, but it strongly suggests that the Synthesis ending is a dream ending.  Not sure about the others yet...

Davik what did you find? I'm not a big fan of CN but I would like to know what you found