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[Andromidius]

Ithurael wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

From now on, we have to put our foot down and just say bad writing is not an argument. Period.
The idea of bad writing is subjective and clearly not present in the rest of the series.

Indoctrination Theory or not, the Evac scene was just silly

Then there was the 'Born in London"

Assuming IT, both are actually quite clever.

Firstly, 'I was born in London' along with the sidewards glance is a hint something isn't right.  And the Evac scene only makes sense with IT, and shows just how dim people can be when given a 'olive branch' even when it makes no sense.

[Andromidius]

BatmanTurian wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

From now on, we have to put our foot down and just say bad writing is not an argument. Period.
The idea of bad writing is subjective and clearly not present in the rest of the series.

Regardless of the ending and IT, there were other areas in ME3 that were poorly written

Again, subjective.

Indeed.  I don't consider there to be much 'bad writing' par say, just some that isn't amazing.  Mostly its lack of choice that bothers me (like not flirting with Vega as Femshep - yeah, I didn't want that, thanks).

[BatmanTurian]

Andromidius wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

From now on, we have to put our foot down and just say bad writing is not an argument. Period.
The idea of bad writing is subjective and clearly not present in the rest of the series.

Regardless of the ending and IT, there were other areas in ME3 that were poorly written

Again, subjective.

Indeed.  I don't consider there to be much 'bad writing' par say, just some that isn't amazing.  Mostly its lack of choice that bothers me (like not flirting with Vega as Femshep - yeah, I didn't want that, thanks).

And lack of choice is explained by IT because we are beginning to lose control of Shepard because Shepard is losing control of him/herself. We are the spark. We tell Shepard what to do and Shepard does it his/her own style. But increasingly, we lose the ability to tell Shepard exactly what to say, which is a hint that Shepard is losing who he/she is at the lowest level upwards.

[Andromidius]

BatmanTurian wrote...

And lack of choice is explained by IT because we are beginning to lose control of Shepard because Shepard is losing control of him/herself. We are the spark. We tell Shepard what to do and Shepard does it his/her own style. But increasingly, we lose the ability to tell Shepard exactly what to say, which is a hint that Shepard is losing who he/she is at the lowest level upwards.

Well that's the reason for no neutral option.  But there should be a yes/no divide even with auto-dialogue.  But hey

[BatmanTurian]

Andromidius wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

And lack of choice is explained by IT because we are beginning to lose control of Shepard because Shepard is losing control of him/herself. We are the spark. We tell Shepard what to do and Shepard does it his/her own style. But increasingly, we lose the ability to tell Shepard exactly what to say, which is a hint that Shepard is losing who he/she is at the lowest level upwards.

Well that's the reason for no neutral option.  But there should be a yes/no divide even with auto-dialogue.  But hey

Well, I'm just saying that's how I see it. It's subliminal loss of control.

[Andromidius]

[quote]BatmanTurian wrote...

[/quote] Well, I'm just saying that's how I see it. It's subliminal loss of control.
[/quote]

So the Reapers want Femshep shacked up with Vega?

Dun dun dun!

[BatmanTurian]

Andromidius wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Well, I'm just saying that's how I see it. It's subliminal loss of control.

So the Reapers want Femshep shacked up with Vega?

Dun dun dun!

Who knows? But I'm not just talking about Vega. Vega is for the newbs anyway. Mr. Exposition. As-You-Know-Bob. Shepard is his friend anyway.
There are plenty of other occasions where Shep doesn't act like him/herself and we are left watching it happen without input, like the inner mind is trapped and unable to say or do what it really wants. Sounds like a symptom of indoctrination to me.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:18 .

[Davik Kang]

BatmanTurian wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
From now on, we have to put our foot down and just say bad writing is not an argument. Period.
The idea of bad writing is subjective and clearly not present in the rest of the series.

Regardless of the ending and IT, there were other areas in ME3 that were poorly written

Again, subjective.

I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying, because using bad writing as an argument tends to drive the discussion down, and into a series of unfunny memes and "Bioware fanboy" jibes.

However, if you go too far, you end up trying to explain everything, and can lose focus,  For example, I don't like the way Shepard starts flirting with Jacob every single time you talk to him in ME2.  I could start claiming that it's really because Jacob is actually an indoctrination device causing sensual overload in Shepard's horny female brain.  Or I could just admit it's a part of the story I don't really like.

Priority:Earth is the most controversial one, because there is so much stuff in there that just doesn't make sense, and it's pretty hard to figure out where to focus our efforts, because literally everything weird about the mission could be narrative failure, a rushed effort due to lack of time, or a genuine attempt to show us things aren't right, and even give us clues to point in the right direction.  I've spent ages fishing for things in P:E, but I can never really be sure if I'm on the trail of a real fish or a red herring.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:19 .

[spotlessvoid]

I think they explained it as the Reapers are here now and there is no more time for being indecisive

[BatmanTurian]

Ah well, you guys are free to think what you like. My interpretation is the lack of choice is part of the symptoms of indoctrination: we, the players, are Shepard's ego and, increasingly, we lose control over Shepard over the course of ME3. It's part of the whole meta concept that we are Shepard and even we get indoctrinated etc.

[AresKeith]

BatmanTurian wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

From now on, we have to put our foot down and just say bad writing is not an argument. Period.
The idea of bad writing is subjective and clearly not present in the rest of the series.

Regardless of the ending and IT, there were other areas in ME3 that were poorly written

Again, subjective.

Your right it is subjective but I'm not saying its bad writing.

But some areas of the game just didn't feel right

[Davik Kang]

BatmanTurian wrote...
Ah well, you guys are free to think what you like. My interpretation is the lack of choice is part of the symptoms of indoctrination: we, the players, are Shepard's ego and, increasingly, we lose control over Shepard over the course of ME3. It's part of the whole meta concept that we are Shepard and even we get indoctrinated etc.

To be honest I don't actually mind the lack of dialogue options in this game.  Quite often in ME1 a conversation would remain completely unchanged irrespective of which option you picked.  So ME3 just took out what was at times a pointless mechanic.  

I only play ME for the story btw, if it weren't for ME3 Multiplayer I probably never would've figured out the system behind the combat mechanics properly.  So I am invested in the sotry exclusively.  And I took a lot of time over dialogue choices to make ones that matched Shepard's (my Shepard's) character.  So it's not cos I don't care about the choice factor.  It's one of the most important bits imo.  I just don't think it suffered that much in ME3 just because you had less (pointless) intermediate options to select.

[BatmanTurian]

AresKeith wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

From now on, we have to put our foot down and just say bad writing is not an argument. Period.
The idea of bad writing is subjective and clearly not present in the rest of the series.

Regardless of the ending and IT, there were other areas in ME3 that were poorly written

Again, subjective.

Your right it is subjective but I'm not saying its bad writing.

But some areas of the game just didn't feel right

Well, we are in a thread explaining exactly why that is....

[BatmanTurian]

Davik Kang wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Ah well, you guys are free to think what you like. My interpretation is the lack of choice is part of the symptoms of indoctrination: we, the players, are Shepard's ego and, increasingly, we lose control over Shepard over the course of ME3. It's part of the whole meta concept that we are Shepard and even we get indoctrinated etc.

To be honest I don't actually mind the lack of dialogue options in this game.  Quite often in ME1 a conversation would remain completely unchanged irrespective of which option you picked.  So ME3 just took out what was at times a pointless mechanic.  

I only play ME for the story btw, if it weren't for ME3 Multiplayer I probably never would've figured out the system behind the combat mechanics properly.  So I am invested in the sotry exclusively.  And I took a lot of time over dialogue choices to make ones that matched Shepard's (my Shepard's) character.  So it's not cos I don't care about the choice factor.  It's one of the most important bits imo.  I just don't think it suffered that much in ME3 just because you had less (pointless) intermediate options to select.

I play for the story and the combat system. But people did have a problem with the long cutscenes and some things that were out-of-character for Shepard. I'm saying, that's why we're in a thread about that. I mean " So the Illusive Man was right." anyone? Great example right there.

[Davik Kang]

BatmanTurian wrote...
I play for the story and the combat system. But people did have a problem with the long cutscenes and some things that were out-of-character for Shepard. I'm saying, that's why we're in a thread about that. I mean " So the Illusive Man was right." anyone? Great example right there.

True, and I agree with your reasoning in terms of that specific dialogue clip.  During the whole ending from Cronos we lose control of Shepard more and more, just as you say.  For that reason, the TIM line you quoted is one of my favourites in the game.

[BatmanTurian]

By the way, just throwing this out there. Was playing ME2 over again last night. When they're rebuilding shepard, they give shepard implants that definitely look like some form of Reapertech- same blue metal and everything.

Also, Mordin says a great line at the end of his omega dossier mission that supports destroy- paraphrased: "Doctors help people, sometimes by healing them, sometimes by killing those who would harm them." It's the line that comes after his goofy assistant asks why Mordin would say that he would have shot the Batarians that were holding his assistant hostage.

[BatmanTurian]

Davik Kang wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
I play for the story and the combat system. But people did have a problem with the long cutscenes and some things that were out-of-character for Shepard. I'm saying, that's why we're in a thread about that. I mean " So the Illusive Man was right." anyone? Great example right there.

True, and I agree with your reasoning in terms of that specific dialogue clip.  During the whole ending from Cronos we lose control of Shepard more and more, just as you say.  For that reason, the TIM line you quoted is one of my favourites in the game.

Any literalist should have went " lolwut" at that moment and thought " I just argued against that guy less than 5 mins ago. It should have been a warning sign. Instead, they go " whelp, star child says it, it must be true! Makes sense!"

[spotlessvoid]

Real life propaganda isn't hard. It's been one of the most powerful weapons ever created.

It's a well known thing in psychology that most people can only handle one to two crisis in their life at a time. Imagine if you were diagnosed with cancer, lost your job, and found out your spouse was cheating all in a short period of time. Most people would go in the fetal position.

It works the same way on a national level. Induce primal emotions, namely fear, and watch the people shut down mentally. TV and movies are perfect for this. Make people feel like the world is terrifying and beyond their control. What can you do personally about terrorism, crime, pollution, war, etc etc?

It's called the Hegellian dialectic

Problem/reaction/solution

Create the problem, guide the reaction, offer the solution.

It's governments foremost tool against the masses.

Even in the face of overwhelming evidence, people will refuse to believe it unless it comes from an authority figure. Almost the entire planet is indoctrinated. Is it really hard to understand why people trust starchild?
Submission to authority is what they've been conditioned for their whole lives.

Control education and the media and government can shape reality. It's up to the individual to question what he sees and hears. Unfortunately, mindless entertainment and schools designed to teach data retention instead of critical thinking has brought us to this point

[BatmanTurian]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Real life propaganda isn't hard. It's been one of the most powerful weapons ever created.

It's a well known thing in psychology that most people can only handle one to two crisis in their life at a time. Imagine if you were diagnosed with cancer, lost your job, and found out your spouse was cheating all in a short period of time. Most people would go in the fetal position.

It works the same way on a national level. Induce primal emotions, namely fear, and watch the people shut down mentally. TV and movies are perfect for this. Make people feel like the world is terrifying and beyond their control. What can you do personally about terrorism, crime, pollution, war, etc etc?

It's called the Hegellian dialectic

Problem/reaction/solution

Create the problem, guide the reaction, offer the solution.

It's governments foremost tool against the masses.

Even in the face of overwhelming evidence, people will refuse to believe it unless it comes from an authority figure. Almost the entire planet is indoctrinated. Is it really hard to understand why people trust starchild?
Submission to authority is what they've been conditioned for their whole lives.

Control education and the media and government can shape reality. It's up to the individual to question what he sees and hears. Unfortunately, mindless entertainment and schools designed to teach data retention instead of critical thinking has brought us to this point

Completely agree on every point.

[BatmanTurian]

SwobyJ wrote...

Sareth Cousland wrote...

As the thread is moving slowly again and there is not much to discuss, I'll throw something in here. You remember the "original" ending which revolved around dark energy? In that version of the ending, the Reapers were looking for a way to save the galaxy from the spread of dark energy. In the ending we have, they pretend to save organics from synthetics. What do they have in common? In both scenarios, suddenly the Reapers are the good guys.

I think that the dark energy threat was the original red herring that would have been used by Starbinger. Shepard would have two options: to trust the avatar of the Reapers and allow them to continue or to allow the presumed spread of dark energy with only a few hundred years left to solve the problem. In both cases, it's a matter of putting faith in the Reapers or holding on to your conviction that they need to be destroyed.

The ending was always intended to be indoctrination.

What do you think?

I agree.

However, I don't think we're done with dark energy stuff. It seems to still poke its head into even ME3's story/codex/war assets and if there is a future DLC/game, it may deal with dark energy in a similar or different way.

Well, that stuff is really stetching space-tme and may even be speeding up faster than scientists thought and not at a constant speed. So it really could be a threat larger than the Reapers. Giant, cold, deceitful killing machines or the Big Rip? Big Rip is infinitely scarier. At least there is a chance of defeating the Reapers. the Big Rip is a force of nature on par with a black hole or a gamma ray burst except on a universal scale.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 27 octobre 2012 - 06:45 .