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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#40651
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:05

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SwobyJ wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

shadoww6021 wrote...
hey guys. i was doing a new mass effect playthrough and found this on the mars reasearch station. when i first saw it, i guess must of overlooked. the main part of this is are 'they' the reapers or the protheans. it most likely the protheans though it is interesting to see this. perhaps they knew that humanity could play a big part in stopping the reapers at the next cycle? i dont know. what are your opinions
i.imgur.com/a6ARJ.jpg

I mentioned this yesterday or the day before.  Basically if it was the Protheans watching us, it's a good thing, as they likely hid the Crucible designs there on Mars because they were impressed with the rate at which humanity was advancing and figured they'd be one of the most advanced civilisations by the next cycle.

However it does make you wonder why they didn't leave it to a more advanced race at the time.  Fears of susceptibility to indoctrination maybe?  Or fears that discovering the Crucible before discovering the Reapers might cause serious problems?  (Atom bomb type problems)

The other possibility is much worse.  We know that discovery of civilisations older than Protheans is a new thing.  Everyone had assumed that all the space tech left lying around came from the Protheans, including the Citadel.  But the Mars facility looks quite a lot like the Citadel from the outside.  If the base is of Reaper construction, it means they were studying us long before we advanced (as we know from the hunter dream text in ME1), and that they left the Crucible designs for us to find.  Possibly because they'd already marked us out as the race they wanted to harvest for their new Reaper.

DD and Restrider - thanks for the info on the dream foliage.


I think we're reading a lot into something on a pad that lacks any kind of clarity.

Unless there's a good amount of evidence in game to back it up, it's not useful for IT.


I think its very useful to IT. Humanity's evolution may have lead to Shepard. Shepard is highly resistant to mental influence (comparatively speaking). I think there's a major link, and future content (nope, I don't think we're done quite yet) will show us why Shepard is so strongly willed and why others follow him like he has an 'aura'.

Or rather, its a mix of conscious intent and genetic anomaly.


This seems too reaching. Getting into all sorts of speculation and not even close to sticking with in game facts and in game reality. Using possible future content is absurd. Sorry, but it just is. You are linking it to something that literally does not exist to your knowledge. That's the sort of thing ITers HAVE to stay away from or we lose credibility and look like idiots. Stick with specific details that are IN GAME and work along the principles you would use in analyzing a literary work or movie for foreshadowing, referencing things working on a deeper level, point to themes. That's the only way to do this or you are getting off track. If you like to do that on your own, that's cool. But it seems to me that this thread has a purpose which is to quite specifically use in game information to show IT as what is actually happening whether people choose to accept it or not. Many will not because it's too heady for them or ruins their fun. You can lead a horse to water... Well, we have to dangle a big ole carrot in front of that horse and the carrot has to be factual in game stuff or the horse will get lost or buck and pull away and run. That's what we are dealing with at this point. Indoctrination in game seems to parallel indoctrination of players in RL which is rather scary but also rather interesting in a disturbing way.


EDITED TO ADD: Think of it as us being the Scully rather than Mulder since IT in and of itself is Mulder and the Mulder aspect of us. Scully kept him sane and in the realm of reality. She kept him on track and focused in the facts rather than letting him just believe and theorize stuff without any kind of evidence. In the end, the evidence often made everything quite clear and generally there was a scientific explanation. Well, we're the scullies that are looking for proof about IT. Speculation that is not supported by factual in game evidence makes us more like Mulder. Imagine how far Mulder would have gotten without Scully? Even with her, he barely got out of some situations, but she gave balance and credibility to the x-files. Without her, it would just have been an insane conspiracy theory show... that failed.

Modifié par starlitegirlx, 28 octobre 2012 - 07:15 .

#40652
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:08

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Restrider wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Unlike many others in this thread, I wasn't frustrated with the original endings.

Let me explain.

First time playing the ending, I didn't trust the child. I felt like being manipulated. The notion that I could control the Reapers was laughable to me, after just going through that whole confrontation with TIM. Naturally, I picked destroy.

Ending sequence played, and I was confused. Not mad, confused.

I didn't mind the lack of closure, in fact, I didn't even feel like there was a lack of closure.

After thinking it over for an hour or two, it suddenly occurred to me how Saren advocated synthesis. And then I understood what had happened in the ending. It was an indoctrination attempt.

And then I saw the breath scene on youtube. And then my mind was blown.

(I didn't get the breath scene because I was playing a borrowed version of the game, so I couldn't play multiplayer, and this was before they lowered the required EMS.)

I was so excited about having defeated indoctrination, I lay awake all night.

The beauty of it was that I was playing a 100% paragon Shepard, who had never -ever- picked a renegade option or interrupt. Yet in the end, I consciously chose the RED option. It made me hesitate, but I felt like I had no choice, because I didn't trust the other two options.

When thinking about it afterward, I realized the colours had been reversed.

But the real beauty of the ending, and the ART of it, lies herein:
-snip-
Five minutes with the Reaper overlord and tons of Shepards will throw themselves into the synthesis beam. Beautiful.

It's really scary, but that's what makes it so genius.

Thanks for this, Bioware. Still gives me goosebumps just to think about it.

Now that, my friends, is art. And it went right over people's heads. Still does.

Well, I did not trust the brat, yet I played with Refuse available (without knowing what would happen).
How would've you decided having Refuse at your first palythrough, DD?


Here's how I see it:

Destroy - Hell, you'll use any method in order to eventually destroy the Reapers. Shepard's record of choices and his motivations for them (like keeping the Collector Base) proves this.

Control - You're using the Reaper God's suggestion to die, have your AI join the Reapers and control them. .......

Synthesis - You're using the Reaper God's suggestion to die, have your 'essence' join all organics and synthetics, and have galactic peace. .... Oh wait, that was never guaranteed ;)

Refuse - It's actually the best option! It's WHY Shepard sounds SO 'Shepard' here! However, we're in a dream, and have to remember we're going by dream logic. WE NEED this context. Shepard can be assumed to have just bled out and died.

Bioware may just be saying to us: "You'll get your Refuse option, but now is not the time."

#40653
Eryri
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:08

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starlitegirlx wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I think its very useful to IT. Humanity's evolution may have lead to Shepard. Shepard is highly resistant to mental influence (comparatively speaking). I think there's a major link, and future content (nope, I don't think we're done quite yet) will show us why Shepard is so strongly willed and why others follow him like he has an 'aura'.

Or rather, its a mix of conscious intent and genetic anomaly.


This seems too reaching. Getting into all sorts of speculation and not even close to sticking with in game facts and in game reality. Using possible future content is absurd. Sorry, but it just is. You are linking it to something that literally does not exist to your knowledge. That's the sort of thing ITers HAVE to stay away from or we lose credibility and look like idiots. Stick with specific details that are IN GAME and work along the principles you would use in analyzing a literary work or movie for foreshadowing, referencing things working on a deeper level, point to themes. That's the only way to do this or you are getting off track. If you like to do that on your own, that's cool. But it seems to me that this thread has a purpose which is to quite specifically use in game information to show IT as what is actually happening whether people choose to accept it or not. Many will not because it's too heady for them or ruins their fun. You can lead a horse to water... Well, we have to dangle a big ole carrot in front of that horse and the carrot has to be factual in game stuff or the horse will get lost or buck and pull away and run. That's what we are dealing with at this point. Indoctrination in game seems to parallel indoctrination of players in RL which is rather scary but also rather interesting in a disturbing way.


To be fair, Shepard did survive contact with the Prothean beacon in ME1. According to Liara that should have killed someone with a weaker will.

#40654
BatmanTurian
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:10

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ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

Adding a little more off-topic to let everyone know that if the reapers had a smell, it would be the putrid odor of decaying pumpkin. It's slightly earthy and thickens the air much like snake venom congeals the blood, so you're just gasping and coughing the whole time wondering why it feels like you're inhaling pounds of tangible gross.


lol blech

#40655
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:11

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starlitegirlx wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I would still go for destroy. I felt very strongly about staying my course, and doing what I came to do.

First time playing the EC, I noticed the refuse option in the dialogue, but I ignored it. I went for the destroy ramp. But when I was almost there, I turned around and shot the "catalyst" (simply because I always did that before the EC - it's just a funny habit), and accidentally triggered the refuse ending. xD

The 'SO BE IT' made me think IT was being revealed, but the following was kind of a cold shower, haha.


Shooting the catalyst trigger refuse? Damn. That's strange. Or telling. It's a ghost thing. If it's an illusion, how does shooting the brat trigger refuse? What's the logic there?


I think the idea might be that by picking Destroy, you're still opening yourself up to manipulation by the Reapers (at least in Harbigner's mind).

If you pick Refuse or to shoot(/reject) the Catalyst entirely, you're not worth their time. It's the most true to Shepard, but again, dream logic. He's basically done with you: SO BE IT.

Like I've been trying to say, picking Destroy still doesn't mean the story is over. The struggle, battle, and war continues. Picking Refuse... kinda turns your back on all the assets you've acquired and your hope for this, current cycle.

#40656
BatmanTurian
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:13

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Eryri wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I think its very useful to IT. Humanity's evolution may have lead to Shepard. Shepard is highly resistant to mental influence (comparatively speaking). I think there's a major link, and future content (nope, I don't think we're done quite yet) will show us why Shepard is so strongly willed and why others follow him like he has an 'aura'.

Or rather, its a mix of conscious intent and genetic anomaly.


This seems too reaching. Getting into all sorts of speculation and not even close to sticking with in game facts and in game reality. Using possible future content is absurd. Sorry, but it just is. You are linking it to something that literally does not exist to your knowledge. That's the sort of thing ITers HAVE to stay away from or we lose credibility and look like idiots. Stick with specific details that are IN GAME and work along the principles you would use in analyzing a literary work or movie for foreshadowing, referencing things working on a deeper level, point to themes. That's the only way to do this or you are getting off track. If you like to do that on your own, that's cool. But it seems to me that this thread has a purpose which is to quite specifically use in game information to show IT as what is actually happening whether people choose to accept it or not. Many will not because it's too heady for them or ruins their fun. You can lead a horse to water... Well, we have to dangle a big ole carrot in front of that horse and the carrot has to be factual in game stuff or the horse will get lost or buck and pull away and run. That's what we are dealing with at this point. Indoctrination in game seems to parallel indoctrination of players in RL which is rather scary but also rather interesting in a disturbing way.


To be fair, Shepard did survive contact with the Prothean beacon in ME1. According to Liara that should have killed someone with a weaker will.


perhaps the protheans were genetically preparing humans to use their prothean-specific tech and the genes became recessive and dormant until Shepard awoke them as a genetic anomoly?

#40657
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:16

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Eryri wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Lots of things possibly tying together into this idea of post-ending or full expansion DLC on Rio in some form (whatever Bioware wants to say, 'post-ending' could be twisted to mean several things), acting as the 'dawn after the darkness' true narrative conclusion to Mass Effect.


I've said this before, but if Bioware really wanted to be sneaky, they might consider the Stargazer scene to be the true ending to the game. Therefore anything set before then, even post breath scene, would merely be mid-game dlc.


They would still have to change it then. If "One more story" meant DLC (LOL @ the ending message: "BUY OUR DLC"), then they'd still have to change the Stargazer scene after we get it.


Unless there really is a ME4, which would make the scene fit no matter what....

#40658
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:18

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starlitegirlx wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

shadoww6021 wrote...
hey guys. i was doing a new mass effect playthrough and found this on the mars reasearch station. when i first saw it, i guess must of overlooked. the main part of this is are 'they' the reapers or the protheans. it most likely the protheans though it is interesting to see this. perhaps they knew that humanity could play a big part in stopping the reapers at the next cycle? i dont know. what are your opinions
i.imgur.com/a6ARJ.jpg

I mentioned this yesterday or the day before.  Basically if it was the Protheans watching us, it's a good thing, as they likely hid the Crucible designs there on Mars because they were impressed with the rate at which humanity was advancing and figured they'd be one of the most advanced civilisations by the next cycle.

However it does make you wonder why they didn't leave it to a more advanced race at the time.  Fears of susceptibility to indoctrination maybe?  Or fears that discovering the Crucible before discovering the Reapers might cause serious problems?  (Atom bomb type problems)

The other possibility is much worse.  We know that discovery of civilisations older than Protheans is a new thing.  Everyone had assumed that all the space tech left lying around came from the Protheans, including the Citadel.  But the Mars facility looks quite a lot like the Citadel from the outside.  If the base is of Reaper construction, it means they were studying us long before we advanced (as we know from the hunter dream text in ME1), and that they left the Crucible designs for us to find.  Possibly because they'd already marked us out as the race they wanted to harvest for their new Reaper.

DD and Restrider - thanks for the info on the dream foliage.


I think we're reading a lot into something on a pad that lacks any kind of clarity.

Unless there's a good amount of evidence in game to back it up, it's not useful for IT.


I think its very useful to IT. Humanity's evolution may have lead to Shepard. Shepard is highly resistant to mental influence (comparatively speaking). I think there's a major link, and future content (nope, I don't think we're done quite yet) will show us why Shepard is so strongly willed and why others follow him like he has an 'aura'.

Or rather, its a mix of conscious intent and genetic anomaly.


This seems too reaching. Getting into all sorts of speculation and not even close to sticking with in game facts and in game reality. Using possible future content is absurd. Sorry, but it just is. You are linking it to something that literally does not exist to your knowledge. That's the sort of thing ITers HAVE to stay away from or we lose credibility and look like idiots. Stick with specific details that are IN GAME and work along the principles you would use in analyzing a literary work or movie for foreshadowing, referencing things working on a deeper level, point to themes. That's the only way to do this or you are getting off track. If you like to do that on your own, that's cool. But it seems to me that this thread has a purpose which is to quite specifically use in game information to show IT as what is actually happening whether people choose to accept it or not. Many will not because it's too heady for them or ruins their fun. You can lead a horse to water... Well, we have to dangle a big ole carrot in front of that horse and the carrot has to be factual in game stuff or the horse will get lost or buck and pull away and run. That's what we are dealing with at this point. Indoctrination in game seems to parallel indoctrination of players in RL which is rather scary but also rather interesting in a disturbing way.


EDITED TO ADD: Think of it as us being the Scully rather than Mulder since IT in and of itself is Mulder and the Mulder aspect of us. Scully kept him sane and in the realm of reality. She kept him on track and focused in the facts rather than letting him just believe and theorize stuff without any kind of evidence. In the end, the evidence often made everything quite clear and generally there was a scientific explanation. Well, we're the scullies that are looking for proof about IT. Speculation that is not supported by factual in game evidence makes us more like Mulder. Imagine how far Mulder would have gotten without Scully? Even with her, he barely got out of some situations, but she gave balance and credibility to the x-files. Without her, it would just have been an insane conspiracy theory show... that failed.


...


I wonder why Shepard is called an anomaly, in a DLC for the last game in the series of Shepard's Story.

Look, I'm not reaching here. It's all there.

#40659
Eryri
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:20

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BatmanTurian wrote...

perhaps the protheans were genetically preparing humans to use their prothean-specific tech and the genes became recessive and dormant until Shepard awoke them as a genetic anomoly?


Could be. Javik did say that they tended to assimilate other species who then became known as "Prothean", much in the same way that the Roman Empire granted citizenship to people from conquered regions once they adopted Roman customs and values.

Perhaps the Protheans were grooming humanity to become a soldier caste or something, so they needed to give us the ability to interface with their technology?

Modifié par Eryri, 28 octobre 2012 - 07:24 .

#40660
Home run MF
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:23

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Keeping the base is directly linked to the control ending. Same goes for destroying the base and the destroy ending.

It makes perfect logical sense.


If you're so convinced the colors are reversed in the decision chamber could you explain to me the paragon/renegade check during your first conversation with Javik aboard the Normandy?

#40661
BatmanTurian
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:24

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Eryri wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

perhaps the protheans were genetically preparing humans to use their prothean-specific tech and the genes became recessive and dormant until Shepard awoke them as a genetic anomoly?


Could be. Javik did say that they tended to assimilate other races who then became known as "Prothean", much in the same way that the Roman Empire granted citizenship to people from conquered regions once they adopted Roman customs and values.

Perhaps the Protheans were grooming humanity to become a soldier caste or something, so they needed to give us the ability to interface with their technology?


Sounds plausible. Javik wouldn't know about it since he wasn't a scientist and it was before his time.

#40662
BatmanTurian
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:25

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Home run MF wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Keeping the base is directly linked to the control ending. Same goes for destroying the base and the destroy ending.

It makes perfect logical sense.


If you're so convinced the colors are reversed in the decision chamber could you explain to me the paragon/renegade check during your first conversation with Javik aboard the Normandy?


What would that have to do with Javik?

#40663
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:27

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Eryri wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I think its very useful to IT. Humanity's evolution may have lead to Shepard. Shepard is highly resistant to mental influence (comparatively speaking). I think there's a major link, and future content (nope, I don't think we're done quite yet) will show us why Shepard is so strongly willed and why others follow him like he has an 'aura'.

Or rather, its a mix of conscious intent and genetic anomaly.


This seems too reaching. Getting into all sorts of speculation and not even close to sticking with in game facts and in game reality. Using possible future content is absurd. Sorry, but it just is. You are linking it to something that literally does not exist to your knowledge. That's the sort of thing ITers HAVE to stay away from or we lose credibility and look like idiots. Stick with specific details that are IN GAME and work along the principles you would use in analyzing a literary work or movie for foreshadowing, referencing things working on a deeper level, point to themes. That's the only way to do this or you are getting off track. If you like to do that on your own, that's cool. But it seems to me that this thread has a purpose which is to quite specifically use in game information to show IT as what is actually happening whether people choose to accept it or not. Many will not because it's too heady for them or ruins their fun. You can lead a horse to water... Well, we have to dangle a big ole carrot in front of that horse and the carrot has to be factual in game stuff or the horse will get lost or buck and pull away and run. That's what we are dealing with at this point. Indoctrination in game seems to parallel indoctrination of players in RL which is rather scary but also rather interesting in a disturbing way.


To be fair, Shepard did survive contact with the Prothean beacon in ME1. According to Liara that should have killed someone with a weaker will.


Yet saren used it just fine. was that because of evolution? Turians were of zero interest to harbinger. Was it because of Sovereign? You have to remember that in creating your shepard you have very specific options. Basically you are a hero and/or survivor. All of them are geared toward making shepard a strong willed survivor. Is that evidence enough? Maybe. The first part of the hypothesis is fine. But the minute you link it to something that doesn't even exist yet the point is lost. Better off to go back to the trilogy and see what supports this idea of shepard being special. IS THAT what you are trying. I'm not even sure. What was on the datapad again? You have to form a clear connection that isn't just speculation. Do we want to be a group of Mulder types (pre scully) or Mulder/Scully types. There's a vast difference between the two. That's all I'm saying and I'll keep posting it because if you get lost in wild speculations then IT as a whole begins to suffer as it drifts toward the finge and starts looking like the ramblings of a person not based in reality.

#40664
BatmanTurian
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:36

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starlitegirlx wrote...

Eryri wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I think its very useful to IT. Humanity's evolution may have lead to Shepard. Shepard is highly resistant to mental influence (comparatively speaking). I think there's a major link, and future content (nope, I don't think we're done quite yet) will show us why Shepard is so strongly willed and why others follow him like he has an 'aura'.

Or rather, its a mix of conscious intent and genetic anomaly.


This seems too reaching. Getting into all sorts of speculation and not even close to sticking with in game facts and in game reality. Using possible future content is absurd. Sorry, but it just is. You are linking it to something that literally does not exist to your knowledge. That's the sort of thing ITers HAVE to stay away from or we lose credibility and look like idiots. Stick with specific details that are IN GAME and work along the principles you would use in analyzing a literary work or movie for foreshadowing, referencing things working on a deeper level, point to themes. That's the only way to do this or you are getting off track. If you like to do that on your own, that's cool. But it seems to me that this thread has a purpose which is to quite specifically use in game information to show IT as what is actually happening whether people choose to accept it or not. Many will not because it's too heady for them or ruins their fun. You can lead a horse to water... Well, we have to dangle a big ole carrot in front of that horse and the carrot has to be factual in game stuff or the horse will get lost or buck and pull away and run. That's what we are dealing with at this point. Indoctrination in game seems to parallel indoctrination of players in RL which is rather scary but also rather interesting in a disturbing way.


To be fair, Shepard did survive contact with the Prothean beacon in ME1. According to Liara that should have killed someone with a weaker will.


Yet saren used it just fine. was that because of evolution? Turians were of zero interest to harbinger. Was it because of Sovereign? You have to remember that in creating your shepard you have very specific options. Basically you are a hero and/or survivor. All of them are geared toward making shepard a strong willed survivor. Is that evidence enough? Maybe. The first part of the hypothesis is fine. But the minute you link it to something that doesn't even exist yet the point is lost. Better off to go back to the trilogy and see what supports this idea of shepard being special. IS THAT what you are trying. I'm not even sure. What was on the datapad again? You have to form a clear connection that isn't just speculation. Do we want to be a group of Mulder types (pre scully) or Mulder/Scully types. There's a vast difference between the two. That's all I'm saying and I'll keep posting it because if you get lost in wild speculations then IT as a whole begins to suffer as it drifts toward the finge and starts looking like the ramblings of a person not based in reality.

Saren had reapertech implants. Those implants might have been what kept him from having his mind turned to mush, either that or Sovereign was possessing him at the time, which he is seen to do the next time you see Saren having a hissy fit in front of Benezia.

Anyway, we can speculate a little as long as that isn't our main focus. However, speculating sometimes does lead to a new perspective on current evidence and could lead to a new prediction for future content. As long as it's controlled, grounded, and it's not TDM-level speculation, I'd say it's more helpful than harmful. Scientists sometimes have to speculate based on the information given them to form a hypothesis as do literary critics examining a story.

#40665
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:37

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SwobyJ wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

shadoww6021 wrote...
hey guys. i was doing a new mass effect playthrough and found this on the mars reasearch station. when i first saw it, i guess must of overlooked. the main part of this is are 'they' the reapers or the protheans. it most likely the protheans though it is interesting to see this. perhaps they knew that humanity could play a big part in stopping the reapers at the next cycle? i dont know. what are your opinions
i.imgur.com/a6ARJ.jpg

I mentioned this yesterday or the day before.  Basically if it was the Protheans watching us, it's a good thing, as they likely hid the Crucible designs there on Mars because they were impressed with the rate at which humanity was advancing and figured they'd be one of the most advanced civilisations by the next cycle.

However it does make you wonder why they didn't leave it to a more advanced race at the time.  Fears of susceptibility to indoctrination maybe?  Or fears that discovering the Crucible before discovering the Reapers might cause serious problems?  (Atom bomb type problems)

The other possibility is much worse.  We know that discovery of civilisations older than Protheans is a new thing.  Everyone had assumed that all the space tech left lying around came from the Protheans, including the Citadel.  But the Mars facility looks quite a lot like the Citadel from the outside.  If the base is of Reaper construction, it means they were studying us long before we advanced (as we know from the hunter dream text in ME1), and that they left the Crucible designs for us to find.  Possibly because they'd already marked us out as the race they wanted to harvest for their new Reaper.

DD and Restrider - thanks for the info on the dream foliage.


I think we're reading a lot into something on a pad that lacks any kind of clarity.

Unless there's a good amount of evidence in game to back it up, it's not useful for IT.


I think its very useful to IT. Humanity's evolution may have lead to Shepard. Shepard is highly resistant to mental influence (comparatively speaking). I think there's a major link, and future content (nope, I don't think we're done quite yet) will show us why Shepard is so strongly willed and why others follow him like he has an 'aura'.

Or rather, its a mix of conscious intent and genetic anomaly.


This seems too reaching. Getting into all sorts of speculation and not even close to sticking with in game facts and in game reality. Using possible future content is absurd. Sorry, but it just is. You are linking it to something that literally does not exist to your knowledge. That's the sort of thing ITers HAVE to stay away from or we lose credibility and look like idiots. Stick with specific details that are IN GAME and work along the principles you would use in analyzing a literary work or movie for foreshadowing, referencing things working on a deeper level, point to themes. That's the only way to do this or you are getting off track. If you like to do that on your own, that's cool. But it seems to me that this thread has a purpose which is to quite specifically use in game information to show IT as what is actually happening whether people choose to accept it or not. Many will not because it's too heady for them or ruins their fun. You can lead a horse to water... Well, we have to dangle a big ole carrot in front of that horse and the carrot has to be factual in game stuff or the horse will get lost or buck and pull away and run. That's what we are dealing with at this point. Indoctrination in game seems to parallel indoctrination of players in RL which is rather scary but also rather interesting in a disturbing way.


EDITED TO ADD: Think of it as us being the Scully rather than Mulder since IT in and of itself is Mulder and the Mulder aspect of us. Scully kept him sane and in the realm of reality. She kept him on track and focused in the facts rather than letting him just believe and theorize stuff without any kind of evidence. In the end, the evidence often made everything quite clear and generally there was a scientific explanation. Well, we're the scullies that are looking for proof about IT. Speculation that is not supported by factual in game evidence makes us more like Mulder. Imagine how far Mulder would have gotten without Scully? Even with her, he barely got out of some situations, but she gave balance and credibility to the x-files. Without her, it would just have been an insane conspiracy theory show... that failed.


...


I wonder why Shepard is called an anomaly, in a DLC for the last game in the series of Shepard's Story.

Look, I'm not reaching here. It's all there.


Yes, Leviathan admits that Shepard is an anomally because those victories were due to more than chance. Shepard, to Leviathan, was different than other species. Shepard had a better or the best chance they'd seen.

I'm not dismissing the idea. I'm saying gather the evidence. There is evidence out there if you look. There's Hackett's response to the 'Why me?' question. There's the opening of ME2. There's the council's dismissal of reapers as delusions Shepard had when shepard was MIA which caused Gabby and Donnelly to lose respect. There are those people that follow shepard on a suicide mission. If you're looking for proof that shepard is special it is there, but how does that fit with the datapad and also what relevence does it have to IT. I'm reading all of this thread and I don't see the connections and I'm an ITer. This is my point. Show the connections through in game information. That is all I'm saying. The more specific you are, the better.

#40666
Davik Kang
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:42

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starlitegirlx wrote...
That's the sort of thing ITers HAVE to stay away from or we lose credibility and look like idiots. Stick with specific details that are IN GAME and work along the principles you would use in analyzing a literary work or movie for foreshadowing, referencing things working on a deeper level, point to themes. That's the only way to do this or you are getting off track. 

I really wouldn't worry about what people think of you.  If they think you're idiots, tbh it really doesn't matter.  There's too much interesting stuff in this thread to be dismissed as the imaginings of idiots.  The people who make that kind of judgment are going to make it anyway.

Most of the stuff being discussed here is in-game evidence.  Different people are drawing different conclusions from it, and that's fine.  It would be unnerving if everybody agreed on the usefulness of absolutely everything.  It would indicate that they aren't really thinking critically - they'd just be approving pro-IT stuff and dismissing anti-IT stuff.  Then you'd have a problem.

I can see that the speculation can get tiresome.  Without any confirmation from Bioware, the game feels incomplete to some.  But that's what ME3 is.  They've given us a game open to varying interpretations, and none so far can be demonstrated to be the right one.  I'm sure future DLC will give us some more clues... but will it reveal the true nature of the ending?  I doubt it.

All of you already know what IT is.  You gain little by going round and round in circles addressing things you already know.  By looking at different ideas, maybe they'll strengthen your understanding of the ending, maybe they won't.  But that's really all anyone can do now.  The IT info is there at the beginning of the thread for those who want to learn about it.  You guys can look at new ideas, or you can wait for Bioware to give some answers, if they're gonna do so, via future DLC or otherwise.

But you need to be prepared for the fact that they may never do that.  In which case, you can either continue to think about what's already in the game, or you can accept the game as it is.  If you're not happy to do either, then tbh coming to these forums probably isn't all that healthy.

#40667
BatmanTurian
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:45

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Davik Kang wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
That's the sort of thing ITers HAVE to stay away from or we lose credibility and look like idiots. Stick with specific details that are IN GAME and work along the principles you would use in analyzing a literary work or movie for foreshadowing, referencing things working on a deeper level, point to themes. That's the only way to do this or you are getting off track. 

I really wouldn't worry about what people think of you.  If they think you're idiots, tbh it really doesn't matter.  There's too much interesting stuff in this thread to be dismissed as the imaginings of idiots.  The people who make that kind of judgment are going to make it anyway.

Most of the stuff being discussed here is in-game evidence.  Different people are drawing different conclusions from it, and that's fine.  It would be unnerving if everybody agreed on the usefulness of absolutely everything.  It would indicate that they aren't really thinking critically - they'd just be approving pro-IT stuff and dismissing anti-IT stuff.  Then you'd have a problem.

I can see that the speculation can get tiresome.  Without any confirmation from Bioware, the game feels incomplete to some.  But that's what ME3 is.  They've given us a game open to varying interpretations, and none so far can be demonstrated to be the right one.  I'm sure future DLC will give us some more clues... but will it reveal the true nature of the ending?  I doubt it.

All of you already know what IT is.  You gain little by going round and round in circles addressing things you already know.  By looking at different ideas, maybe they'll strengthen your understanding of the ending, maybe they won't.  But that's really all anyone can do now.  The IT info is there at the beginning of the thread for those who want to learn about it.  You guys can look at new ideas, or you can wait for Bioware to give some answers, if they're gonna do so, via future DLC or otherwise.

But you need to be prepared for the fact that they may never do that.  In which case, you can either continue to think about what's already in the game, or you can accept the game as it is.  If you're not happy to do either, then tbh coming to these forums probably isn't all that healthy.

+1

#40668
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:45

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Regarding the datapad, at that point in the game we have no information about the protheans. We later learn that they were watching us evolve. That is all the datapad states which is astonishing to the scientist who realized it and astonishing to the player who later learns of it from Javik. But there is nothing to imply specialness. Hell, we're cavemen to javik. The asari were the chosen ones. So all I see is a datapad that confirms the information we later learn from javik. It doesn't even say anything that implies we ae special in any way. Just that they were paying attention to our development, which they were.

#40669
DoomsdayDevice
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:50

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Home run MF wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Keeping the base is directly linked to the control ending. Same goes for destroying the base and the destroy ending.

It makes perfect logical sense.


If you're so convinced the colors are reversed in the decision chamber could you explain to me the paragon/renegade check during your first conversation with Javik aboard the Normandy?


People often bring this up, but I'm not sure what they mean. Javik touches you and says he senses fear in you, and that the Reapers are winning. He says this no matter what you did.

How is that an alignment check? Could you explain?

#40670
Home run MF
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:50

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Keeping the base is directly linked to the control ending. Same goes for destroying the base and the destroy ending.

It makes perfect logical sense.


If you're so convinced the colors are reversed in the decision chamber could you explain to me the paragon/renegade check during your first conversation with Javik aboard the Normandy?


What would that have to do with Javik?


Shepard: Then I'd say you've found an ally. The goal of this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.

Javik: But how far are you willing to go to achieve that goal?

paragon/renegade check here where he "reads" Shepard

If renegade: Lies are easy to detect. But you seem to be telling the truth, Commander. For now.

If paragon:  I do not believe you, Commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words.


Which Shepard appears to have doubts about destroying the Reapers? :whistle:

Modifié par Home run MF, 28 octobre 2012 - 07:51 .

#40671
BatmanTurian
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 07:58

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Home run MF wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Keeping the base is directly linked to the control ending. Same goes for destroying the base and the destroy ending.

It makes perfect logical sense.


If you're so convinced the colors are reversed in the decision chamber could you explain to me the paragon/renegade check during your first conversation with Javik aboard the Normandy?


What would that have to do with Javik?


Shepard: Then I'd say you've found an ally. The goal of this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.

Javik: But how far are you willing to go to achieve that goal?

paragon/renegade check here where he "reads" Shepard

If renegade: Lies are easy to detect. But you seem to be telling the truth, Commander. For now.

If paragon:  I do not believe you, Commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words.


Which Shepard appears to have doubts about destroying the Reapers? :whistle:


And that has nothing to do with the ending where everything is obviously reversed. There is no connection here.

#40672
Davik Kang
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 08:03

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starlitegirlx wrote...

Regarding the datapad, at that point in the game we have no information about the protheans. We later learn that they were watching us evolve. That is all the datapad states which is astonishing to the scientist who realized it and astonishing to the player who later learns of it from Javik. But there is nothing to imply specialness. Hell, we're cavemen to javik. The asari were the chosen ones. So all I see is a datapad that confirms the information we later learn from javik. It doesn't even say anything that implies we ae special in any way. Just that they were paying attention to our development, which they were.

Agreed.  The other thing is, the plans for the Crucible were hidden here (on Mars).  That may be significant or it may not be.

Another thing is, do people think the Asari have a kind of pride, arrogance maybe, about being the smartest race?  The most advanced race?  Like, for example, when you look at Liara's Shadow Broker data files on the Normandy, there's one where she assumes some level of advancement to be from their Third Age, but it's actually the Fourth.  

The second thing is the Thessia beacon - it is a source of their advancement, but very few people know about it.  Do you think that (given that they didn't know about the Reapers initially) the reason they hide it is out of shame - because it shows that their role as the most advanced race in the galaxy is a result of a helping hand from a previous race?  (There would be other reasons too of course, such as preserving their advantage, most importantly.)

Modifié par Davik Kang, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:04 .

#40673
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 08:06

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Davik Kang wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
That's the sort of thing ITers HAVE to stay away from or we lose credibility and look like idiots. Stick with specific details that are IN GAME and work along the principles you would use in analyzing a literary work or movie for foreshadowing, referencing things working on a deeper level, point to themes. That's the only way to do this or you are getting off track. 

I really wouldn't worry about what people think of you.  If they think you're idiots, tbh it really doesn't matter.  There's too much interesting stuff in this thread to be dismissed as the imaginings of idiots.  The people who make that kind of judgment are going to make it anyway.

Most of the stuff being discussed here is in-game evidence.  Different people are drawing different conclusions from it, and that's fine.  It would be unnerving if everybody agreed on the usefulness of absolutely everything.  It would indicate that they aren't really thinking critically - they'd just be approving pro-IT stuff and dismissing anti-IT stuff.  Then you'd have a problem.

I can see that the speculation can get tiresome.  Without any confirmation from Bioware, the game feels incomplete to some.  But that's what ME3 is.  They've given us a game open to varying interpretations, and none so far can be demonstrated to be the right one.  I'm sure future DLC will give us some more clues... but will it reveal the true nature of the ending?  I doubt it.

All of you already know what IT is.  You gain little by going round and round in circles addressing things you already know.  By looking at different ideas, maybe they'll strengthen your understanding of the ending, maybe they won't.  But that's really all anyone can do now.  The IT info is there at the beginning of the thread for those who want to learn about it.  You guys can look at new ideas, or you can wait for Bioware to give some answers, if they're gonna do so, via future DLC or otherwise.

But you need to be prepared for the fact that they may never do that.  In which case, you can either continue to think about what's already in the game, or you can accept the game as it is.  If you're not happy to do either, then tbh coming to these forums probably isn't all that healthy.


You said what I was trying to. Thanks.

I can and have presented detailed evidence for my claims and speculation before.

I'm not gonna do it every single time, sorry. It's gotten to that point, several months past ME3's launch

#40674
Davik Kang
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 08:08

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BatmanTurian wrote...
And that has nothing to do with the ending where everything is obviously reversed. There is no connection here.

HrMF's point is that the Control choice is the Paragon choice - the non-aggressive choice.  It's just showing Paragon isn't always right.  Javik is pointing out that a consistently Paragon Shepard is one who shows mercy where possible.  He's not saying Paragon is always bad, just that Paragon sentiment may lead you astray when the time comes.

Tbh I think inverting the Blue/Red channels and then going "wow look - destroy is the good option" is the kind of thing you guys should veer away from.  To me that is almost definitionally putting the cart before the horse.  Just my opinion though.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 28 octobre 2012 - 08:09 .

#40675
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 28 octobre 2012 - 08:10

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Home run MF wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Keeping the base is directly linked to the control ending. Same goes for destroying the base and the destroy ending.

It makes perfect logical sense.


If you're so convinced the colors are reversed in the decision chamber could you explain to me the paragon/renegade check during your first conversation with Javik aboard the Normandy?


What would that have to do with Javik?


Shepard: Then I'd say you've found an ally. The goal of this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.

Javik: But how far are you willing to go to achieve that goal?

paragon/renegade check here where he "reads" Shepard

If renegade: Lies are easy to detect. But you seem to be telling the truth, Commander. For now.

If paragon:  I do not believe you, Commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words.


Which Shepard appears to have doubts about destroying the Reapers? :whistle:


The feeling I've got is that Shepard is a character canon-ally written to want Destroy, but, depending on your RPing with him, may toy with or even side with Control in some aspects, eventually culminating with the ending.

I feel Control is the 'Sith' option for this Bioware game, but Synthesis is total 'fell for it!' scenario.

I think once indoctrination started getting into Shepard, that's when Paragon started to become associated with Control, and 'Catalyst' took advantage of that.

But in reality, when you take the indoctrination out, Destroy is BOTH Paragon and Renegade. Even Renegade Shepard admits he intended the Collector Base to be preserved in order to STOP the Reapers, not control or synthesize with them.
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