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[Restrider]

starlitegirlx wrote...

Restrider wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...
Just as they hide their crazy-psycho killer Asari.

Asari lovers hate to think about it, but the race DOES have a very dark side. It's their whole thing, ever since they were shown having eyes that turn to black

And I love asari myself. Liara is still actually one of my favorite characters, I see most asari as just fine, and Samara's story is heartbreaking.

None of that doesn't mean that they may have been positioned or promoted by another faction (Reaper/Leviathan/Prothian?) to be the 'apex race' in their own way of this cycle, after the Prothian 'unite under one empire and banner' cycle 'failed'.

Yeah, I covered that kind of a few days ago.
Xilizhra then accused me of being a misogynist and Asari-hater, though I am not, lol.
To paraphrase my post:
I came to the impression that the Asari, though portrayed as the race of empathy, wisdom, patience, diplomacy and balance, have a very dark side. In fact, most of the characters (aside from the various mooks/cannon fodder you kill) that show sociopathic/psychopathic traits are Asari:

- Aria T'Loak
- Tela Vasir
- Morinth
- Cpt. Enyala (the Cpt. in Miranda's LM)
- Elnora (the mercenary that killed that Volus and lied about it)
- Wasea (?? the leader of Eclipse right after biotic god)
- Nassana Dantius and her slaver sister
- Jona Sederis  

I probably forgot a few... What I am trying to say, though, is that this might be a way to show that the Asari also have their dark side.

ME2 gets much deeper into the asari culture and based on all the mercs abusing their biotics and the whole thing about contracts that came up on Illium along with the need for Justicars and Samara saying something along the lines of justice being needed in a society that laughs at the notion - well, to me, that makes the asari look pretty bad. I do love Liara's father who you meet in the bar. She had some really great insights and recommendations and they laughed at her so now she's a bartender watching Liara.

Actually, I supposed you could look at the protheans influence as a form of manipulation. It gave the asari power that they clearly wasted and/or hoarded when they could have and should have shared it. I wonder if the protheans would then fall into the control category? Hmmm? Just a random thought.

Hm...
The Asari are really weird, considering an anthropocentric view, lol. I get the Salarians and Turians, they have a very short or normal life expectancy and are yet able to establish a decent presence, expecially as it seems without any kind of external support (especially the Salarians; just remember "they used to eat flies...").
The Asari have Prothean support and crazy life expectancies they usually kind of waste. That's what Aethyta identifies as one of the biggest problems of the Asari Republics, this stagnation and unwillingness to evolve faster. They are spoiled with a lot of time and thus do not use it effectively.
That is what boosts humanity on the other hand. They have limited lives and did not have any contact to other species until a few decades ago (ingame time of course, lol).

Mhmm.... I came to a little hypothesis.
Think about this:
Humanity is the new player on the field and has had the biggest progress in a short amount of time as of late. The other races, the races that seem to have already settled down, are intimidated by that. But you know what? I guess humanity would start to stagnate aswell after a few centuries. Maybe it's the influence of the Asari that slows the efforts of new races down. For example, I would say that the Salarians are at least as driven as the humans, yet they did not show this growth in this short time as humanity did and maybe that is because of the Asari that have some kind of pacifying influence on them by integrating them into the galactic community. 
Here is an analogy:
The teenager that is on his own has to get things done for itself. Other teenagers are spoiled, if they get everything spoonfed and if they live knowing that nothing can happen since there are a lot of others that may back him/her up...

Ah... well, a little brainstorm here that is not really backed up by anything rather than a feeling in the gut that there might be something wrong with the Asari Republics.

[BatmanTurian]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Keeping the base is directly linked to the control ending. Same goes for destroying the base and the destroy ending.

It makes perfect logical sense.

If you're so convinced the colors are reversed in the decision chamber could you explain to me the paragon/renegade check during your first conversation with Javik aboard the Normandy?

What would that have to do with Javik?

Shepard: Then I'd say you've found an ally. The goal of this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.

Javik: But how far are you willing to go to achieve that goal?

paragon/renegade check here where he "reads" Shepard

If renegade: Lies are easy to detect. But you seem to be telling the truth, Commander. For now.

If paragon:  I do not believe you, Commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words.


Which Shepard appears to have doubts about destroying the Reapers? 

And that has nothing to do with the ending where everything is obviously reversed. There is no connection here.

If the ending is obviously reversed then wouldn't the choices in this conversation reflect this?

[/i]If renegade: I do not believe you, Commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words. 

If paragon: [i] Lies are easy to detect. But you seem to be telling the truth, Commander. For now.

Like this?

http://social.biowar...7/1628#14716075

[BatmanTurian]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Eryri wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I think its very useful to IT. Humanity's evolution may have lead to Shepard. Shepard is highly resistant to mental influence (comparatively speaking). I think there's a major link, and future content (nope, I don't think we're done quite yet) will show us why Shepard is so strongly willed and why others follow him like he has an 'aura'.

Or rather, its a mix of conscious intent and genetic anomaly.

This seems too reaching. Getting into all sorts of speculation and not even close to sticking with in game facts and in game reality. Using possible future content is absurd. Sorry, but it just is. You are linking it to something that literally does not exist to your knowledge. That's the sort of thing ITers HAVE to stay away from or we lose credibility and look like idiots. Stick with specific details that are IN GAME and work along the principles you would use in analyzing a literary work or movie for foreshadowing, referencing things working on a deeper level, point to themes. That's the only way to do this or you are getting off track. If you like to do that on your own, that's cool. But it seems to me that this thread has a purpose which is to quite specifically use in game information to show IT as what is actually happening whether people choose to accept it or not. Many will not because it's too heady for them or ruins their fun. You can lead a horse to water... Well, we have to dangle a big ole carrot in front of that horse and the carrot has to be factual in game stuff or the horse will get lost or buck and pull away and run. That's what we are dealing with at this point. Indoctrination in game seems to parallel indoctrination of players in RL which is rather scary but also rather interesting in a disturbing way.

To be fair, Shepard did survive contact with the Prothean beacon in ME1. According to Liara that should have killed someone with a weaker will.

Yet saren used it just fine. was that because of evolution? Turians were of zero interest to harbinger. Was it because of Sovereign? You have to remember that in creating your shepard you have very specific options. Basically you are a hero and/or survivor. All of them are geared toward making shepard a strong willed survivor. Is that evidence enough? Maybe. The first part of the hypothesis is fine. But the minute you link it to something that doesn't even exist yet the point is lost. Better off to go back to the trilogy and see what supports this idea of shepard being special. IS THAT what you are trying. I'm not even sure. What was on the datapad again? You have to form a clear connection that isn't just speculation. Do we want to be a group of Mulder types (pre scully) or Mulder/Scully types. There's a vast difference between the two. That's all I'm saying and I'll keep posting it because if you get lost in wild speculations then IT as a whole begins to suffer as it drifts toward the finge and starts looking like the ramblings of a person not based in reality.

Saren had reapertech implants. Those implants might have been what kept him from having his mind turned to mush, either that or Sovereign was possessing him at the time, which he is seen to do the next time you see Saren having a hissy fit in front of Benezia.

Anyway, we can speculate a little as long as that isn't our main focus. However, speculating sometimes does lead to a new perspective on current evidence and could lead to a new prediction for future content. As long as it's controlled, grounded, and it's not TDM-level speculation, I'd say it's more helpful than harmful. Scientists sometimes have to speculate based on the information given them to form a hypothesis as do literary critics examining a story.

Saren didn't get his reaper implants till about halfway through ME1

He had implants WAY before that. You can see them the very first time you see him when he kills Nihilus. Sovereign only added more implants to control Saren after Shepard introduced doubts in Saren's mind on vermire.

[Restrider]

Afaik, Saren has a Geth arm for example...

[BatmanTurian]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

lord of dahorde wrote...

Extended cut + leviathan dlc makes IT Theory obsolete.

Leviathan confirms IT is entirely possible.

Reapers can build illusions from your memories even better than Leviathans can.

And to drive the message home, they included this parallel:

This is not Ann Bryson, it is a Leviathan projection.
This is not the kid from Earth, it is a Reaper projection.

You're not on the floor, you're inside a mech-suit.
You're not on the Citadel, you're on Earth.

Oh yeah, your mind belongs to him too.

Getting nervous already?

You know one of the polls I did about indoctrination (as late as it was when I did it) most people believed their Shepard could not be indoctrinated.  So a lot of us who play this game believe that the hero can't have something bad happen to him.  So while we realize we are still in a mech suit and realize we're seeing a projection, we still believe it's not changing us or our choices (hence the line about indoctrination is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds...)

Those people are in denial. Shepard is not and never has been superman or batman. Even the strongest will can be broken.

[401 Kill]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Those people are in denial. Shepard is not and never has been superman or batman. Even the strongest will can be broken.

"Maybe I'm just some high-tech VI that thinks its Commander Shepard."

Shepard sure seems to be having some serious doubts here.

[Restrider]

starlitegirlx wrote...
I love that last sentence. As said in the Vega/Shepard conversation, the right choice isn't always the easiest one.

In ME1, first playthough, I chose to hold back the fleet (which killed the council) because Sovereign was the threat and needed to be destroyed. I had no idea that you could go paragon and save the council then save sovereign. If it were really war, you would have sacraficed the ascension to stop Sovereign from taking control. All those ships were there to protect the citadel. Now you are suddenly telling them what their job is? Protect the citadel from sovereign! Sorry but I sacraficed the ascension and found it absurd that it lead to a human run council. How did the council not plan for lines of succession? That just makes them look even dumber than they already did. But at least they fixed that with the Turians and the primarch issue in ME3. When I chose to kill sovereign it had nothing to do with wanting to destroy the council, and I had no way of knowing if enough ships would survive that in order to save the citadel. That whole part was absurd though and badly written. If the council was existing that long, you would think they'd have a plan in place to keep it going in the event something happened to them. either that or they were total idiots who deserved to die.

I don't get the part about the Council in ME1...
There are three outcomes:
1. You save the Ascension and the Council and humanity is given a seat.
2. You do not save the Ascension and the Council, but restore the Council with humanity given a seat.
3. You do not save the Ascension and the Council, but impose an only-human Council by using the situation of the weakened alien fleets.

And all the three options are atmospherically different.
In the first, humans are respected/trusted.
In the second, a few may be sceptical about humanity and its new role.
In the third, you are even warned that as a human, you are in danger of being attacked on the Wards, if going to the wrong places.
And you have to take into account that the councilors are not leaders of the repsective races, thus there is no need for a well defined line of succession. In the second scenario, they just promote other diplomats/politicians to be councilors, but the now relatively strong human fleet gives the human councilor a lot of weight. In the third scenario, humanity denies them their seats, again using its now relatively strong military. I do not see anything... of "bad writing" here.

Modifié par Restrider, 28 octobre 2012 - 09:16 .

[spotlessvoid]

Since we all assume control and synthesis aren't as shown, how can we make the claim that control is better than synthesis if we have no idea what the real world consequences are? I understand why the idea of control is better than synthesis, but not why it's considered less as a total losing choice under it and variations

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

BatmanTurian wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

lord of dahorde wrote...

Extended cut + leviathan dlc makes IT Theory obsolete.

Leviathan confirms IT is entirely possible.

Reapers can build illusions from your memories even better than Leviathans can.

And to drive the message home, they included this parallel:

This is not Ann Bryson, it is a Leviathan projection.
This is not the kid from Earth, it is a Reaper projection.

You're not on the floor, you're inside a mech-suit.
You're not on the Citadel, you're on Earth.

Oh yeah, your mind belongs to him too.

Getting nervous already?

You know one of the polls I did about indoctrination (as late as it was when I did it) most people believed their Shepard could not be indoctrinated.  So a lot of us who play this game believe that the hero can't have something bad happen to him.  So while we realize we are still in a mech suit and realize we're seeing a projection, we still believe it's not changing us or our choices (hence the line about indoctrination is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds...)

Those people are in denial. Shepard is not and never has been superman or batman. Even the strongest will can be broken.

Exactly, nothing has ever indicated Shepard was immune to Indoctrination and Leviathan almost flat out disproves the notion as Shepard succumbs as easily as anyone else to Leviathans mind powers.

But I can see why people would be in denial when confronted with something bad regarding a character they think of as theirs. A comparision I can draw as a writer is the characters I create for my longer stories. When I invest myself in the characters i create, shaping their life, putting them through something which really hurts them can be quite hard.

But in order to create good stories as Bioware should I must push myself past such feelings and do what is necesary for the plot. If i dont put my characters through some pain, if they win every fight, they will far to easily become a mary sue.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Since we all assume control and synthesis aren't as shown, how can we make the claim that control is better than synthesis if we have no idea what the real world consequences are? I understand why the idea of control is better than synthesis, but not why it's considered less as a total losing choice under it and variations

From what i understand under Control Shepard at least still seems to be doing it to stop the Reapers. He may not be destroying them, but he is stopping them.

Synthesis is accepting the Reapers were right, not stopping them.

[Restrider]

I especially enjoyed that reasoning of one guy, who said that Shepard cannot be indoctrinated, because the player controls him/her...
That really made my week!

Modifié par Restrider, 28 octobre 2012 - 09:19 .

[BatmanTurian]

401 Kill wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Those people are in denial. Shepard is not and never has been superman or batman. Even the strongest will can be broken.

"Maybe I'm just some high-tech VI that thinks its Commander Shepard."

Shepard sure seems to be having some serious doubts here.

I'm saying that these people think Shepard has some kind of invisible indoctrination shield when that makes no sense at all from an in-universe perspective and surely the writers would think at some point " damn, Shep has been around a lot of Reaper tech and got smacked in the face in Arrival. Why shouldn't Shep get screwed up by a little indoctrination?" They're just straight-up classic denial cases.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 28 octobre 2012 - 09:31 .

[BatmanTurian]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

lord of dahorde wrote...

Extended cut + leviathan dlc makes IT Theory obsolete.

Leviathan confirms IT is entirely possible.

Reapers can build illusions from your memories even better than Leviathans can.

And to drive the message home, they included this parallel:

This is not Ann Bryson, it is a Leviathan projection.
This is not the kid from Earth, it is a Reaper projection.

You're not on the floor, you're inside a mech-suit.
You're not on the Citadel, you're on Earth.

Oh yeah, your mind belongs to him too.

Getting nervous already?

You know one of the polls I did about indoctrination (as late as it was when I did it) most people believed their Shepard could not be indoctrinated.  So a lot of us who play this game believe that the hero can't have something bad happen to him.  So while we realize we are still in a mech suit and realize we're seeing a projection, we still believe it's not changing us or our choices (hence the line about indoctrination is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds...)

Those people are in denial. Shepard is not and never has been superman or batman. Even the strongest will can be broken.

Exactly, nothing has ever indicated Shepard was immune to Indoctrination and Leviathan almost flat out disproves the notion as Shepard succumbs as easily as anyone else to Leviathans mind powers.

But I can see why people would be in denial when confronted with something bad regarding a character they think of as theirs. A comparision I can draw as a writer is the characters I create for my longer stories. When I invest myself in the characters i create, shaping their life, putting them through something which really hurts them can be quite hard.

But in order to create good stories as Bioware should I must push myself past such feelings and do what is necesary for the plot. If i dont put my characters through some pain, if they win every fight, they will far to easily become a mary sue.

Very much agreed, being a novelist myself. It makes no sense to take a character you want people to relate to, and then suddenly make them immune to the things everyday people should be susceptible to. It's like having your uninfected main character stuck in a room or house with a bunch of people sick with the flu or cold and then the main character never catching it. It's just nonsensical.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 28 octobre 2012 - 09:32 .

[BatmanTurian]

Restrider wrote...

I especially enjoyed that reasoning of one guy, who said that Shepard cannot be indoctrinated, because the player controls him/her...
That really made my week!

And this is the typical vapid mind entering our thread and saying IT is disproved by EC and Levi.

[Rifneno]

SwobyJ wrote...

Rio is N7 headquarters, possible trove of Alliance information, as well as the location where Shepard likely has spent time in/trained before all this Mass Effect stuff. It just might be relevant that Hackett was one of the people who reccomended him for Spectre status, maybe.

You think it's still there? I really doubt the Reapers left it alone. It probably wasn't a first strike target (see: nuclear missile silos) but it couldn't have been far behind. The Reapers are focusing on major population centers. Rio de Janeiro is one of the biggest cities in the world, sporting nearly triple the population of Chicago. The Reapers are there. In force. And the N7 facilities would naturally be one of the certain to resist, meaning one of the first to be destroyed.

[MaximizedAction]

Restrider wrote...

I especially enjoyed that reasoning of one guy, who said that Shepard cannot be indoctrinated, because the player controls him/her...
That really made my week!

Impressive denial, Commander.

Though, to be fair, for the same reason I find it hard to accept the trilogy ending with a (possible) death of Shepard.

[BatmanTurian]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Restrider wrote...

I especially enjoyed that reasoning of one guy, who said that Shepard cannot be indoctrinated, because the player controls him/her...
That really made my week!

Impressive denial, Commander.

Though, to be fair, for the same reason I find it hard to accept the trilogy ending with a (possible) death of Shepard.

I'd actually be okay with it as long as it made sense and had some closure. Then again, it wouldn't be the Hero's Journey without the Hero's Triumphant Return.

[spotlessvoid]

You guys are missing the point. I said I know why control seems like theirs still some fight left in Shepard. But to me, until shown otherwise, it's pure guess work. In the end, wasn't TIM just as screwed as Saren? Control has no breath scene. There's no reason as of now to believe Shepard isn't just as hosed as his two indoctrinated buddies TIM and Saren

[D.Sharrah]

Any guesses on what we will see in 10 days?

[Davik Kang]

Completely off-topic - finally soloed Bronze woohoo!

There were some Bronze/Silver level players talking about MP yesterday, anyone who's playing tonight lemme know.

@ FFZero: I really should have come to the MCM today, pretty much wasted my day. Hope it was fun.

[AxStapleton]

starlitegirlx wrote...

Restrider wrote...

I especially enjoyed that reasoning of one guy, who said that Shepard cannot be indoctrinated, because the player controls him/her...
That really made my week!

And so it is that the player is indoctrinated.

Some of the logic I see, like this bit leaves me terrified for the future of humanity. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Don't worry, Humanity has always been a few dragging the rest along with them (kicking and screaming at times).