80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...
Yes I did. My answer was the EC didn't take months of hard work. It's a slide show of low quality pictures with a tiny bit of voice acting. What a joke.

That wasn't the question. I asked why would they take time out of their schedule to work on "illusions" and not your "real" ending.

Who says they aren't? A REAL DLC takes time. It also makes no sense to release that first. EC was slapped together to quell fan outrage enough to proceed with the dlc schedule. It worked

I think they would've capitalized on the Indoctrination Hypothesis when it had the highest following rather than release something that took away a lot of it's support if they planned to use it at all. It's only logical.

Nah, their goal is to indoctrinate the fanbase. It makes to most sense to release a reveal DLC at the end of the DLC cycle. We have Omega, and one unknown one after for sure. The unknown may be a reveal, though I bet it would be after that one, maybe around March.

With the EC, I'm sure they had to push back their "support until March 2013" timeframe, so there will be more than Omega and "Citadel" DLC. As for indoctrinating the fanbase, why tell us that they're not doing any ending-related DLC several times if they are? I know they can't talk about products but they can stay silent about it. If this is their intent, they lied to their fanbase which has given them so much flak for their pseudo-lies.

[plfranke]

I gurantee you, if the final character you spoke to, who gave you the choices was Harbinger and he used his signature phrases, like "Synthesis is inevitable, you have no choice in this Shepard." Not a single person would pick synthesis. The kid is for the most part, universally hated, yet he was what kept people from picking destroy. Had that been a Reaper no one would have picked synthesis.

[spotlessvoid]

Not a single developer ever said no ending content. But even if there isn't, synthesis still isn't valid.

"Synthesis...so the Reapers were right after all."

[spotlessvoid]

Believe whatever you want..I'm gong to synthesize with my bed

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

I have a better way to phrase this Spot.

Darth Revan, what are your reasons for supporting Synthesis? The effects you see after your choice don't count. I mean, as Shepard in the decision chamber, why did you choose it?

Very well, since you asked nicely:
Pre-DLC
1) I'm a supporter of transhumanism
2) I've always supported the prospect of having an option to turn Reapers into allies(wished this since ME1)
3) I believe everyone deserves a chance at redemption
4) The Reapers were obviously winning the fight, so no logical reason for Catalyst to indoctrinate me
Post-Leviathan
5) The Catalyst is following his programming (as stated by Leviathan), which means he's shacked, which means he can't lie (as stated by EDI), and thus is telling you the truth throughout my exchange with him 

[BleedingUranium]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

With the EC, I'm sure they had to push back their "support until March 2013" timeframe, so there will be more than Omega and "Citadel" DLC. As for indoctrinating the fanbase, why tell us that they're not doing any ending-related DLC several times if they are? I know they can't talk about products but they can stay silent about it. If this is their intent, they lied to their fanbase which has given them so much flak for their pseudo-lies.

Think about it this way. As someone who doesn't believe IT, what would you think if they said they were going to hav post-end DLC? I'd imagine you'd be very confused, as that wouldn' make any sense in any of the ending if taken literally.

At the same time, announcing post-end DLC would all but confirm an IT reveal (to us ITers, at any rate), thus effectively ruining the reveal.

It would be a "Gotcha!" kind of reveal, so any word that one is coming would defeat the purpose entirely.

They recently released the Groundside Resistance Pack for SP with literally no advanced warning, so the precedent is there.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 29 octobre 2012 - 08:38 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

With the EC, I'm sure they had to push back their "support until March 2013" timeframe, so there will be more than Omega and "Citadel" DLC. As for indoctrinating the fanbase, why tell us that they're not doing any ending-related DLC several times if they are? I know they can't talk about products but they can stay silent about it. If this is their intent, they lied to their fanbase which has given them so much flak for their pseudo-lies.

Think about it this way. As someone who doesn't believe IT, what would you think if they said they were going to hav post-end DLC? I'd imagine you'd be very confused, as that wouldn' make any sense in any of the ending if taken literally.

At the same time, announcing post-end DLC would all but confirm an IT reveal (to us ITers, at any rate), thus effectively ruining the reveal.

It would be a "Gotcha!" kind of reveal, so any word that one is coming would defeat the purpose entirely.

They recently released the Groundside Resistance Pack for SP with literally no advanced warning, so the precedent is there.

Thats the problem though, they could've stayed silent like they do with all other DLCs until between a month-a couple days until release. However, Chris Priestly and many others have stated there is no more coming.For example in the Project X Official Thread:

Chris Priestly wrote...

You can keep discussing this if you wish, but it is false. Sorry.

We have aid numerous times now, we have "ended the endings". While there is more DLC for both Single and Multiplayer still to come, there is no more "endings" DLC.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 29 octobre 2012 - 08:45 .

[BleedingUranium]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

I have a better way to phrase this Spot.

Darth Revan, what are your reasons for supporting Synthesis? The effects you see after your choice don't count. I mean, as Shepard in the decision chamber, why did you choose it?

Very well, since you asked nicely:
Pre-DLC
1) I'm a supporter of transhumanism
2) I've always supported the prospect of having an option to turn Reapers into allies(wished this since ME1)
3) I believe everyone deserves a chance at redemption
4) The Reapers were obviously winning the fight, so no logical reason for Catalyst to indoctrinate me
Post-Leviathan
5) The Catalyst is following his programming (as stated by Leviathan), which means he's shacked, which means he can't lie (as stated by EDI), and thus is telling you the truth throughout my exchange with him 

1) Nothing wrong with that, except that in this Synthesis, it's forced on everyone.
2/3) I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one
4) Winning? Sure, eventually, but with a lot of losses. Liara estimates it would be roughly 100 years before this cycle is over. Indoctrinating the hero of the galaxy could cut that time down considerably.
5) Following programming =/= shackled. EDI is no longer shackled, but continues following her programming to protect the Normandy.

[BleedingUranium]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

With the EC, I'm sure they had to push back their "support until March 2013" timeframe, so there will be more than Omega and "Citadel" DLC. As for indoctrinating the fanbase, why tell us that they're not doing any ending-related DLC several times if they are? I know they can't talk about products but they can stay silent about it. If this is their intent, they lied to their fanbase which has given them so much flak for their pseudo-lies.

Think about it this way. As someone who doesn't believe IT, what would you think if they said they were going to hav post-end DLC? I'd imagine you'd be very confused, as that wouldn' make any sense in any of the ending if taken literally.

At the same time, announcing post-end DLC would all but confirm an IT reveal (to us ITers, at any rate), thus effectively ruining the reveal.

It would be a "Gotcha!" kind of reveal, so any word that one is coming would defeat the purpose entirely.

They recently released the Groundside Resistance Pack for SP with literally no advanced warning, so the precedent is there.

Thats the problem though, they could've stayed silent like they do with all other DLCs until between a month-a couple days until release. However, Chris Priestly and many others have stated there is no more coming.For example in the Project X Official Thread:

Chris Priestly wrote...

You can keep discussing this if you wish, but it is false. Sorry.

We have aid numerous times now, we have "ended the endings". While there is more DLC for both Single and Multiplayer still to come, there is no more "endings" DLC.

Thats the problem though, they could've stayed silent like they do with all other DLCs until between a month-a couple days until release. However, Chris Priestly and many others have stated there is no more coming.

That's because no one asked if that pack was coming out. If they say they're not talking about post-end content, then that's as good as a confirmation. They have to deny stuff until official announcements.

Chris also denied:
-Multiplayer as a whole
-The leaked MP info that has since turned out to be completely true (other than Protheans in MP, which may change with Omega)
-All of the SP and MP DLCs at seperate points.
-One of the MP DLCs after an announcement was leaked about it coming out a few days before it did come out.

Someone could probably find a more complete list, but you get the idea. None of us here trust anything said about future content.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 29 octobre 2012 - 08:51 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

I have a better way to phrase this Spot.

Darth Revan, what are your reasons for supporting Synthesis? The effects you see after your choice don't count. I mean, as Shepard in the decision chamber, why did you choose it?

Very well, since you asked nicely:
Pre-DLC
1) I'm a supporter of transhumanism
2) I've always supported the prospect of having an option to turn Reapers into allies(wished this since ME1)
3) I believe everyone deserves a chance at redemption
4) The Reapers were obviously winning the fight, so no logical reason for Catalyst to indoctrinate me
Post-Leviathan
5) The Catalyst is following his programming (as stated by Leviathan), which means he's shacked, which means he can't lie (as stated by EDI), and thus is telling you the truth throughout my exchange with him 

1) Nothing wrong with that, except that in this Synthesis, it's forced on everyone.
2/3) I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one
4) Winning? Sure, eventually, but with a lot of losses. Liara estimates it would be roughly 100 years before this cycle is over. Indoctrinating the hero of the galaxy could cut that time down considerably.
5) Following programming =/= shackled. EDI is no longer shackled, but continues following her programming to protect the Normandy.

1) All options are forced on everyone, however it can be explained that the galaxy put their faith into the Crucible, a machine they have no idea what it's function is except it can defeat the Reapers(which it does in one form or another), which means they accepted whatever it would do as long as it saved them from the Reaper threat.

2/3) I'll agree to disagree since that's personal beliefs

4) The harvest would take about a century. The entirety of our cycle's forces were put into the Battle for Earth which the Reapers were in the process of eradicating(hence taking too long to decide results in Game Over) so after this battle Shepard wouldn't be of any use to them except maybe to lure the civilians out of hiding, but any official can do this and if not the Reapers have all the time in the world to harvest.

5) I had another dialogue that showed that Catalyst was shackled but can't remember it. Probably either Leviathans again or the Catalyst himself.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BleedingUranium wrote...
That's because no one asked if that pack was coming out. If they say they're not talking about post-end content, then that's as good as a confirmation. They have to deny stuff until official announcements.

Chris also denied:
-Multiplayer as a whole
-The leaked MP info that has since turned out to be completely true (other than Protheans in MP, which may change with Omega)
-All of the SP and MP DLCs at seperate points.
-One of the MP DLCs after an announcement was leaked about it coming out a few days before it did come out.

Someone could probably find a more complete list, but you get the idea. None of us here trust anything said about future content.

Bolded are the same event, the Rebellion DLC. They haven't denied every DLC, there were dozens of "Omega will be DLC" threads before announcement due to file reading and Bioware never shut those down or said "We're not making an Omega DLC". I get not trusting what they post because of NDAs and such, but expecting everything they say is a lie will lead to dissapointment if its true. I tend to go with belieing them so if they say ortherwise later it'll just be a case of "ok, they must have changed their minds" and will never be dissapointed.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 29 octobre 2012 - 09:07 .

[BleedingUranium]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...
That's because no one asked if that pack was coming out. If they say they're not talking about post-end content, then that's as good as a confirmation. They have to deny stuff until official announcements.

Chris also denied:
-Multiplayer as a whole
-The leaked MP info that has since turned out to be completely true (other than Protheans in MP, which may change with Omega)
-All of the SP and MP DLCs at seperate points.
-One of the MP DLCs after an announcement was leaked about it coming out a few days before it did come out.

Someone could probably find a more complete list, but you get the idea. None of us here trust anything said about future content.

Bolded are the same event, the Rebellion DLC. They haven't denied every DLC, there were dozens of "Omega will be DLC" threads before announcement due to file reading and Bioware never shut those down or said "We're not making an Omega DLC". I get not trusting what they post because of NDAs and such, but expecting everything they say is a lie will lead to dissapointment if its true. I tend to go with belieing them so if they say ortherwise later it'll just be a case of "ok, they must have changed their minds" and will never be dissapointed.

I don't think it's a sure thing they'll be a reveal DLC. I think it's likely, but there may not be one. I'm happy to wait until the end of the DLC cycle, but after that...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...
That's because no one asked if that pack was coming out. If they say they're not talking about post-end content, then that's as good as a confirmation. They have to deny stuff until official announcements.

Chris also denied:
-Multiplayer as a whole
-The leaked MP info that has since turned out to be completely true (other than Protheans in MP, which may change with Omega)
-All of the SP and MP DLCs at seperate points.
-One of the MP DLCs after an announcement was leaked about it coming out a few days before it did come out.

Someone could probably find a more complete list, but you get the idea. None of us here trust anything said about future content.

Bolded are the same event, the Rebellion DLC. They haven't denied every DLC, there were dozens of "Omega will be DLC" threads before announcement due to file reading and Bioware never shut those down or said "We're not making an Omega DLC". I get not trusting what they post because of NDAs and such, but expecting everything they say is a lie will lead to dissapointment if its true. I tend to go with belieing them so if they say ortherwise later it'll just be a case of "ok, they must have changed their minds" and will never be dissapointed.

I don't think it's a sure thing they'll be a reveal DLC. I think it's likely, but there may not be one. I'm happy to wait until the end of the DLC cycle, but after that...

I'm happy to wait through the DLC cycle as well, but probably for different reasons.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

starlitegirlx wrote...
To elaborate on the illusion. The story has always been told with shepard there. The only things shepard was not there for were the opening of two and possibly hearing the events that take place in the opening of ME2. Otherwise all story in the trilogy has shepard present. So how is shepard not present for the faux endings? Well, shepard is present because it's a hallucination/illusion/delusion. How do we jump from a first person narrative (shepard there is first person) to a third person narrative? How is all of this told to us? We are shepard and we cannot know what happens after the catalyst action is taken unless shepard was indoctrinated. It doesn't make sense to see the aftermath unless the aftermath is from a hallucination shepard is having. None of it is real. The scenes after are irrelevant because they are part of shepard's hallucination. BW only gave the endings slides so pie in the sky people who were indoctrinated got to see more of it.

Their endings only serve to further indoctrinate you because now you see what you wanted to see (since you asked for it), which is a utopia based on your choices.

Or it can simply be an epilogue to show how your choice affected the galaxy. Many games have done this, but as an example lets use the epilogue of DA:O even if your Warden died to defeat the Archdemon. You still see what happens to everything even though the protagonist is dead.
Also, I don't expect an eternal utopia for Synthesis if thats what your last line is implying.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 29 octobre 2012 - 09:24 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

I have a better way to phrase this Spot.

Darth Revan, what are your reasons for supporting Synthesis? The effects you see after your choice don't count. I mean, as Shepard in the decision chamber, why did you choose it?

Very well, since you asked nicely:
Pre-DLC
1) I'm a supporter of transhumanism
2) I've always supported the prospect of having an option to turn Reapers into allies(wished this since ME1)
3) I believe everyone deserves a chance at redemption
4) The Reapers were obviously winning the fight, so no logical reason for Catalyst to indoctrinate me
Post-Leviathan
5) The Catalyst is following his programming (as stated by Leviathan), which means he's shacked, which means he can't lie (as stated by EDI), and thus is telling you the truth throughout my exchange with him 

Redemption from what? Redemption implies that you on some level think that what you are doing is wrong, but the Reapers do not see anything wrong in what they are doing. According to Sovereign and Harbinger they view what they are doing as ascending organics, if anything I think they believe they are redeeming us.

And yeah the Reapers are winning at Earth, but how many Reapers do you think we will take with us in the fall with the fleet we have gathered? The Reapers usualy complete a cycle with low to no casualties going by what we are told, but now they face a fleet whch will probably give them the biggest casualties since the cycles start leaving them vulnerable in the next cycle.

But the galaxy follows Shepard. If Shepard said that the battle at Earth was hopeless, that they had to find another way, that the Crucible was a dud, how many fleets do you think would follow him in a retreat?

And finally the Leviathan shakcle agrument is deeply flawed.

First of the Leviathans never refer to the AI as the Catalyst in fact they dont know what the Catalyst is according to what they say.

Secondly a shackled AI can lie just as well as a free AI, the difference in shackled or not shackled is what it can do. A shackled AI will be unable to perform certain tasks in accordance with the shackles and a shackle can indeed be that it cannot lie, but is not necesarily like that. Also I dont think Leviathan ever says the AI was shackled.

Finally the Catalyst does lie during the conversation, both implied and direct lies. It implies Shepard will die in Destroy with the line "even you are part synthetic" right after saying the Crucible will not discriminate. But real lie is how the Catalyst pushes the responsibilty of the cycles on to the Synthetic creations. To Quote one bit:

"Soon your children will create new synthetics and then the chaos will come back," - Catalyst.

This is an outright lie as we have seen that the Geth can exist peacefully and only wanted to live peacefully all along. In fact the only hostile Geth we encounter are the ones the Reapers are controlling and Javik mentions how the Reapers also subjugated the Zha´til, the prominent AI from his cycle. Quite a long shot from the creating peace.

But it dosent even end there Synthetics can never be reponsible for the cycle, because it is the Reapers who created it. They guide Organic civilizations through the Mass Relays and other technology they leave behind, menaing they are as responsible for the AI´s which are created if not more because they pushed the Organic civilizations down the same evolutinary path, cycle after cycle.

Also the Catalyst claims he knew nothing of the Crucible, which again is a lie if you choose to spare the Fake Rahcni Queen. As an Indoctrinated beeing the Reapers could read her mind or see through her eyes (I beleive it was Paul Grayson who is described as having his mind read) but whateve the case "assuming direct control" as we know Harbinger can do in perfected form in relation to the Leviathans would also have provided immediate knowledge.

Also he says the only harvest advanced civilizations, but what about all those Harvesters flying around. Though hinted to have at least some kind of intelligence, the Harvesters are not an advanced civilization.

1 implied and 3 outright lies, right there.

Edit: Just rewatched the ending of Leviathan. Leviathan never mentions anything about the AI beeing shackled.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 29 octobre 2012 - 09:29 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...
I have a better way to phrase this Spot.
Darth Revan, what are your reasons for supporting Synthesis? The effects you see after your choice don't count. I mean, as Shepard in the decision chamber, why did you choose it?

Very well, since you asked nicely:
Pre-DLC
1) I'm a supporter of transhumanism
2) I've always supported the prospect of having an option to turn Reapers into allies(wished this since ME1)
3) I believe everyone deserves a chance at redemption
4) The Reapers were obviously winning the fight, so no logical reason for Catalyst to indoctrinate me
Post-Leviathan
5) The Catalyst is following his programming (as stated by Leviathan), which means he's shacked, which means he can't lie (as stated by EDI), and thus is telling you the truth throughout my exchange with him 

Redemption from what? Redemption implies that you on some level think that what you are doing is wrong, but the Reapers do not see anything wrong in what they are doing. According to Sovereign and Harbinger they view what they are doing as ascending organics, if anything I think they believe they are redeeming us.

And yeah the Reapers are winning at Earth, but how many Reapers do you think we will take with us in the fall with the fleet we have gathered? The Reapers usualy complete a cycle with low to no casualties going by what we are told, but now they face a fleet whch will probably give them the biggest casualties since the cycles start leaving them vulnerable in the next cycle.

But the galaxy follows Shepard. If Shepard said that the battle at Earth was hopeless, that they had to find another way, that the Crucible was a dud, how many fleets do you think would follow him in a retreat?

And finally the Leviathan shakcle agrument is deeply flawed.

First of the Leviathans never refer to the AI as the Catalyst in fact they dont know what the Catalyst is according to what they say.

Secondly a shackled AI can lie just as well as a free AI, the difference in shackled or not shackled is what it can do. A shackled AI will be unable to perform certain tasks in accordance with the shackles and a shackle can indeed be that it cannot lie, but is not necesarily like that. Also I dont think Leviathan ever says the AI was shackled.

Finally the Catalyst does lie during the conversation, both implied and direct lies. It implies Shepard will die in Destroy with the line "even you are part synthetic" right after saying the Crucible will not discriminate. But real lie is how the Catalyst pushes the responsibilty of the cycles on to the Synthetic creations. To Quote one bit:

"Soon your children will create new synthetics and then the chaos will come back," - Catalyst.

This is an outright lie as we have seen that the Geth can exist peacefully and only wanted to live peacefully all along. In fact the only hostile Geth we encounter are the ones the Reapers are controlling and Javik mentions how the Reapers also subjugated the Zha´til, the prominent AI from his cycle. Quite a long shot from the creating peace.

But it dosent even end there Synthetics can never be reponsible for the cycle, because it is the Reapers who created it. They guide Organic civilizations through the Mass Relays and other technology they leave behind, menaing they are as responsible for the AI´s which are created if not more because they pushed the Organic civilizations down the same evolutinary path, cycle after cycle.

Also the Catalyst claims he knew nothing of the Crucible, which again is a lie if you choose to spare the Fake Rahcni Queen. As an Indoctrinated beeing the Reapers could read her mind or see through her eyes (I beleive it was Paul Grayson who is described as having his mind read) but whateve the case "assuming direct control" as we know Harbinger can do in perfected form in relation to the Leviathans would also have provided immediate knowledge.

Also he says the only harvest advanced civilizations, but what about all those Harvesters flying around. Though hinted to have at least some kind of intelligence, the Harvesters are not an advanced civilization.

1 implied and 3 outright lies, right there.

1)To quote Thane: "If you fire a gun, do you hold the gun responsible." The gun in this case is the Catalyst/Reapers, who are simply following the directives programmed into them by the gunman, in this case the Leviathans. With another way available now, the Reapers no longer have to Reap but can help preserve life another way, as Synthesis shows.

2) The Reapers will lose some of them, but they have several thousand Dreadnaughts and tens of thousands of destroyers, most of whom aren't even at the Battle for Earth but are instead locking down every relay and harvesting. Even with only a fraction of their strength they are decimating the entire galactic fleet.

3) Shepard, whether doing what the game shows or unconcious on the ground, is unable to give any orders to retreat and all the forces are commited to the fight on Earth where retreat isn't an option according to Anderson and Hackett, the commanders of Hammer and Sword/Shield.

4) Shackled AI are forced to give relevent data. As I stated to someone else, I had a dialogue that said it but can't remember at the moment.

5) What do you suppose the Leviathans are referring the Intelligence as if not the Catalyst?

6) He never says you'll die, but that it's a possibility, which it is. So he's telling the truth there.

7) The Geth came to the Reapers in ME3 in order to be safe from the Quarians, so Catalyst sees that peace hadn't been achieved. And if it is later by shepard, he can dismiss it as a "temporary thing that won't last" since out of 300 years, only a couple years has peace existed between both parties, which results in them being in conflict for at least 95% of the time which doesnt look good to an entity that views things logically.With these odds, and all the previous cycles, he has safely calculate that conflict between organics and synthetics is so close to 100% as to be "inevitable"

8) The Reapers leave those behind to help make the harvest easier if the cycle is dubbed to be harvested. They left enough room for something as big as peace between organics and synthetics.

9) For all we know, the Rachni Queen doesn't know about the Crucible since she doesn't go here to help build it but instead sends her new unindoctrinated children to do it.

10) The Harvesters were used as simply tools and most of their kind were probably left alone for a future cycle. For those who killed the Rachni Queen in ME1, the same can be argues that the Reapers used some Rachni as tools as well and kept a Queen in storage hence her existence in ME3.

[BleedingUranium]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

1)To quote Thane: "If you fire a gun, do you hold the gun responsible." The gun in this case is the Catalyst/Reapers, who are simply following the directives programmed into them by the gunman, in this case the Leviathans. With another way available now, the Reapers no longer have to Reap but can help preserve life another way, as Synthesis shows.

No. That's like Xen comparing Legion to Shepard's pistol.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

1)To quote Thane: "If you fire a gun, do you hold the gun responsible." The gun in this case is the Catalyst/Reapers, who are simply following the directives programmed into them by the gunman, in this case the Leviathans. With another way available now, the Reapers no longer have to Reap but can help preserve life another way, as Synthesis shows.

No. That's like Xen comparing Legion to Shepard's pistol.

In ME2, when you talk to Thane about being an assassin and get mad at him or something, Thane states the line I quoted. Xen's line, while similar, is stating that Geth are no more alive then a pistol.
Edit: Found it, its at 1:34-1:38

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 29 octobre 2012 - 10:17 .

[BleedingUranium]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

1)To quote Thane: "If you fire a gun, do you hold the gun responsible." The gun in this case is the Catalyst/Reapers, who are simply following the directives programmed into them by the gunman, in this case the Leviathans. With another way available now, the Reapers no longer have to Reap but can help preserve life another way, as Synthesis shows.

No. That's like Xen comparing Legion to Shepard's pistol.

In ME2, when you talk to Thane about being an assassin and get mad at him or something, Thane states the line I quoted. Xen's line, while similar, is stating that Geth are no more alive then a pistol.
Edit: Found it, its at 1:34-1:38

Yes, I remember Thane's line. What's important to note is that this is due to Thane's view of the world. He views himself as merely a tool, and what he's hired to do is something that he's not really responsible for, his employer is. Mass Effect's characters are cool because they offer different viewpoints, but I disagree with Thane in this case. All sapient lifeforms are responsible for their own choices and actions.

On a similar note, no matter your view of the Geth, they are alive. No matter what they are made out of, sapience is sapience. This isn't just my opinion, but is an established theme of the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 29 octobre 2012 - 10:26 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

1)To quote Thane: "If you fire a gun, do you hold the gun responsible." The gun in this case is the Catalyst/Reapers, who are simply following the directives programmed into them by the gunman, in this case the Leviathans. With another way available now, the Reapers no longer have to Reap but can help preserve life another way, as Synthesis shows.

2) The Reapers will lose some of them, but they have several thousand Dreadnaughts and tens of thousands of destroyers, most of whom aren't even at the Battle for Earth but are instead locking down every relay and harvesting. Even with only a fraction of their strength they are decimating the entire galactic fleet.

3) Shepard, whether doing what the game shows or unconcious on the ground, is unable to give any orders to retreat and all the forces are commited to the fight on Earth where retreat isn't an option according to Anderson and Hackett, the commanders of Hammer and Sword/Shield.

4) Shackled AI are forced to give relevent data. As I stated to someone else, I had a dialogue that said it but can't remember at the moment.

5) What do you suppose the Leviathans are referring the Intelligence as if not the Catalyst?

6) He never says you'll die, but that it's a possibility, which it is. So he's telling the truth there.

7) The Geth came to the Reapers in ME3 in order to be safe from the Quarians, so Catalyst sees that peace hadn't been achieved. And if it is later by shepard, he can dismiss it as a "temporary thing that won't last" since out of 300 years, only a couple years has peace existed between both parties, which results in them being in conflict for at least 95% of the time which doesnt look good to an entity that views things logically.With these odds, and all the previous cycles, he has safely calculate that conflict between organics and synthetics is so close to 100% as to be "inevitable"

8) The Reapers leave those behind to help make the harvest easier if the cycle is dubbed to be harvested. They left enough room for something as big as peace between organics and synthetics.

9) For all we know, the Rachni Queen doesn't know about the Crucible since she doesn't go here to help build it but instead sends her new unindoctrinated children to do it.

10) The Harvesters were used as simply tools and most of their kind were probably left alone for a future cycle. For those who killed the Rachni Queen in ME1, the same can be argues that the Reapers used some Rachni as tools as well and kept a Queen in storage hence her existence in ME3.

Ah you know what I love about you, I love how you never back up what you say with Quotes from the game and all of your entire argument relies on the notion that the Catalyst is exactly what it is (the Leader of the Reapers btw) and dosent lie a single time.

Well I do pick out argument from within the game and let us start with your numbers on the Reapers at Earth shall we? Here is a quote from Vendetta in regards to the Citadel at Earth: "The Reapers will now consolidate power around the Catalyst (Citadel) and protect it at all cost." Kinda shoots down the idea that we are only facing a fraction of the Reaper forces dosent it?

Also if those numbers you just pulled out of nowhere were true why can Palaven then continue to offer resistance? Every single base should just have been overrun. Why do the Reapers first reach Thessia around the end of the game?

Now I do recognice the fact that we dont know the exact numbers the Reapers are bringing, by if it was in the size category you refer to then their tactics dont make much sense. They could have hit every major point, including the Citadel with an overwhelming force, completely obliterating all resistance at the same time. Instead they are slowed down by the tenacious defense in key locations and the war is dragged out.

On number 3: Shepard takes a deep breath in the Destroy Breath scene, probably waking up. If Indoctrinated he would probably do the exact same thing, waking up, but with a different goal. Also yes Hacket and Anderson are the official leaders of the assualt, but even so it was Shepard who decied the time of attack and the one who gave the attack order. He is also consulted in regards to the attacks plans. Beyond that just about every single species out owes Shepard in some way.

I dont think there is much question as to who the effective leader of this assault is.

And yeah the Geth came to the Reapers in ME3, seeking help in order to preserve their species, to fight back, never out of a desire to kill the Quarians. And you forget it was Sovereign who facilidated the first contact between Reaper and Geth, resulting in the Heretic faction within the Geth.

Though never explicitely said to be Indoctrinated or controlled through upgrades like in ME3, Legion does note how different the Heretic Geth have become and ME1 hints that the Heretic Geth exhibit a "superstitious awe" towards Sovereign as shown by the fact that they seem to worship what we now know is a Reaper artifact. Guess where the bolded line appears as well, hint it is a codex entry.

In regards to 9: Considering the Rahcni are a hivemind like race of creatures capable of communicating across the vastness of space using a form of organic QEC (revealed in Leviathan) the Queen would know anything her children saw, so there is no reason the Reapers should not know about the Crucible if the Fake Queen is spared.

In regards to 10: Using a race as tools is still wide different from "leaving the younger ones alone."

Oh right I forgot another outright lie and self conflicting line from Catalyst: "There will still be losses, but no more than what has allready been lost."

This line appears in regards to Destroy and is as said self confliciting and a lie. If taken at face value the Geth and EDI will die, they will be losses despite the Catalyst just saying that there will be no more losses than what has allready been lost.

Also I must admit I find it curious who calls himself Darth Revan, the character involved in what i have seen described as the "I am your father" twist of gaming, completely dismisses the idea that the same company might do a new twist ending.

Also Bioware did do a mind control, paradise vision, kind of ending before in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark where the encounter with a Elder Brain triggers a dream state in which the main character is told that they won and invited to the victory feast. Accept and the credits roll, deny and deny the reality of things and you get to fight back.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 29 octobre 2012 - 10:37 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

1)To quote Thane: "If you fire a gun, do you hold the gun responsible." The gun in this case is the Catalyst/Reapers, who are simply following the directives programmed into them by the gunman, in this case the Leviathans. With another way available now, the Reapers no longer have to Reap but can help preserve life another way, as Synthesis shows.

No. That's like Xen comparing Legion to Shepard's pistol.

In ME2, when you talk to Thane about being an assassin and get mad at him or something, Thane states the line I quoted. Xen's line, while similar, is stating that Geth are no more alive then a pistol.
Edit: Found it, its at 1:34-1:38

Yes, I remember Thane's line. What's important to note is that this is due to Thane's view of the world. He views himself as merely a tool, and what he's hired to do is something that he's not really responsible for, his employer is. Mass Effect's characters are cool because they offer different viewpoints, but I diasagree with Thane in this case. All sapiant lifeforms are responsible for their own choices.

On a similar note, no matter your view of the Geth, they are alive. No matter what they are made out of, sapience is sapience. This isn't just my opinion, but is an established theme of the Mass Effect universe.

I agree that Thane is responsible and I adamantly agree that the Geth are just as alive as we are. That's one reason I can't choose Destroy ever. I do like that each species, and even individuals of that species, have such different viewpoints and I hope ME4 introduces new races for us to explore.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
Ah you know what I love about you, I love how you never back up what you say with Quotes from the game and all of your entire argument relies on the notion that the Catalyst is exactly what it is (the Lader of the Reapers btw) and dosent lie a single time.

Well I do pick out argument from within the game and let us start with your numbers on the Reapers at Earth shall we? Here is a quote from Vendetta in regards to the Citadel at Earth: "The Reapers will now consolidate power around the Catalyst (Citadel) and protect it at all cost." Kinda shoots down the idea that we are only facing a fraction of the Reaper forces dosent it?

Also if those numbers you just pulled out of nowhere were true why can Palaven then continue to offer resistance? Every single base should just have been overrun. Why do the Reapers first reach Thessia around the end of the game?

Now I do recognice the fact that we dont know the exact numbers the Reapers are bringing, by if it was in the size category you refer to then their tactics dont make much sense. They could have hit every major point, including the Citadel with an overwhelming force, completely obliterating all resistance at the same time. Instead they are slowed down by the tenacious defense in key locations and the war is dragged out.

On number 3: Shepard takes a deep breath in the Destroy Breath scene, probably waking up. If Indoctrinated he would probably do the exact same thing, waking up, but with a different goal. Also yes Hacket and Anderson are the official leaders of the assualt, but even so it was Shepard who decied the time of attack and the one who gave the attack order. He is also consulted in regards to the attacks plans. Beyond that just about every single species out owes Shepard in some way.

I dont think there is much question as to who the effective leader of this assault is.

And yeah the Geth came to the Reapers in ME3, seeking help in order to preserve their species, to fight back, never out of a desire to kill the Quarians. And you forget it was Sovereign who facilidated the first contact between Reaper and Geth, resulting in the Heretic faction within the Geth.

Though never explicitely said to be Indoctrinated or controlled through upgrades like in ME3, Legion does note how different the Heretic Geth have become and ME1 hints that the Heretic Geth exhibit a "superstitious awe" towards Sovereign as shown by the fact that they seem to worship what we now know is a Reaper artifact. Guess where the bolded line appears as well, hint it is a codex entry.

In regards to 9: Considering the Rahcni are a hivemind like race of creatures capable of communicating across the vastness of space using a form of organic QEC (revealed in Leviathan) the Queen would know anything her children saw, so there is no reason the Reapers should not know about the Crucible if the Fake Queen is spared.

In regards to 10: Using a race as tools is still wide different from "leaving the younger ones alone."

     I really can't quote that all the Reapers aren't at Earth, but there is a Reaper presense large enough at every relay that it doesn't allow access and the EC shows that there are Reapers fighting on every homeworld so there is only a fraction, albeit a bigger fraction than at other clusters. Protect it at all cost can also mean that the Reapers there will fight to the last one to protect the Citadel. As for the numbers, one Dreadnaught per cycle, which happen every 50,000 years and the Reapers have been around for at least a billion according to the dating of the Leviathan of Dis, so that adds up to around 20,000 Dreadnaughts assuming not all are around. all the opther races per cycle are turned into Destroyers as stated in the codex so theres at least tens of thousands of them. The reason they don't hit everything at once is simply they are busy harvesting planets which is the priority since they believe we can't stop them. Also, it wouledn't be much of a game if the Reapers attacked everything at once, so they were made tactically conservative for plot.

     If that is Shepard "waking up", Shepard is in no condition to lead since they did just get hit with a toned down Reaper laser from Harbinger. This leaves leading the attack up to Anderson for Hammer and Hackett for Sword/Shield.

    Like I said, the Geth went to the Reapers to help with the Quarians, and saw sacrificing their independence as "an Acceptable trade" according to Legion. Also, the quote is from the codex involving Indoctrination.

     The Queen was able to control them, but knowledge only passed between queens. Also, to quote Wrex: "Good thing you keeps it's location hidden better than the fact it exists."

     As for Harvesters, you got me there. Or maybe they're more advanced than we thought...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
Oh right I forgot another outright lie and self conflicting line from Catalyst: "There will still be losses, but no more than what has allready been lost."

This line appears in regards to Destroy and is as said self confliciting and a lie. If taken at face value the Geth and EDI will die, they will be losses despite the Catalyst just saying that there will be no more losses than what has allready been lost.

Also I must admit I find it curious who calls himself Darth Revan, the character involved in what i have seen described as the "I am your father" twist of gaming, completely dismisses the idea that the same company might do a new twist ending.

Also Bioware did do a mind control, paradise vision, kind of ending before in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark where the encounter with a Elder Brain triggers a dream state in which the main character is told that they won and invited to the victory feast. Accept and the credits roll, deny and deny the reality of things and you get to fight back.

He could be referring to organiocs in that statement, since it's been established prior that synthetics will be destroyed so why state it twice.

I never stated that the Indoctrination Hypothesis is false. It's as valid as any other ending interpretation. All I've stated is I don't support it. If IH does turn out to be true, I will accept it and personally congradulate those who supported it.

PS: I agree that the protagonist being Darth Revan is the biggest plot twist in gaming history, much as Darth Vader's relationship to Luke was for cinema. When I first saw that scene, I literally dropped my controller (only time a game has ever caused me to).

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 29 octobre 2012 - 10:58 .

[Rifneno]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I've seen brutes think things through more thoroughly than synthesis supporters. I think it's possible. I don't think it would be that hard to trick them into being the bad guys.

"rawr. They won't synthesize! Use your new synthesis powers and assume banshee form, go forth and indoc-ahem convert the heathens!"

They'd buy it. They could call it team Harbinger and they'd buy it.

And to think I almost forgot why I don't like many IT-Supporters. I come on this thing by chance and find this.

And I don't like synthesis supporters.  But you don't see me going through synthesis supporter threads and then crying when I find people voicing that opinion.

Fine, here's a logical question for you: Why would Bioware spend months creating the Extended Cut, which they could of spent making DLC they can charge for, in order to give us free content that adds epilogues to the endings if they're only "illusions" and not add your so-called "real" ending?

We owe you no answers.  This has been addressed many times.  Do the search yourself.

2) I've always supported the prospect of having an option to turn Reapers into allies(wished this since ME1)
3) I believe everyone deserves a chance at redemption

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

5) I had another dialogue that showed that Catalyst was shackled but can't remember it. Probably either Leviathans again or the Catalyst himself.

No you didn't.  That's brainmeltingly retarded.  He was shackled, but those shackles didn't prevent him from hunting his creators to what it believed was their extinction?  Good God.  Think these things through for a moment at least, would you?