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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#40976
Hanako Ikezawa
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 02:28

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spotlessvoid wrote...

"I'm a transhumanist"

If you had any idea all the baggage that comes with that ideology. Will we one day surpass our fleshy bodies? Inevitably. Not like this though. This messianic complex of changing all other life to fit your world view is putrid and vile. It's also profoundly naive and displays a total lack of understanding of how conflict arises. Your final solution doesn't solve anything. Every transhumanist I've ever spoken to or read their writings have been at their core: deeply antihuman.

I'll admit that I don't like the "it's forced on everybody" part, but overall I like it better out of all the endings actually presented: Destroy, Control, Synthesis, and Refuse. I also don't believe that Synthesis will result in eternal peace simply because nature demands competition. It's how life and societies evolve. In most cases of scifi(that I know of anyway) that involve transhumanism have plenty of conflict in it. It just involves those in conflict being a transhuman/cyborg/android/etc.

Humakt83 wrote...

"Our most experienced technical experts are assisting with the Crucible. We have more experience with unfamiliar technologies than any other species, and I promise you that we will burn the Reapers from the sky as soon as the Crucible is installed."

- Admiral Shala'Raan

When does she say this? is it if you side with Quarians over Geth or when she's on Earth? I choose peace and Tali's always alive so I'm curious.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 29 octobre 2012 - 02:31 .

#40977
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 02:45

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan:

The inability to go anywhere but Earth is not because of Reapers. Hacket clearly states that the moment he moves in to attack Cronos Station they wont be able to keep the Crucible hidden from the Reapers any longer. That we are out of time is only underlined by the fact that the Reapers capture the Citadel.

It is purely a gameplay mechanic intended to reinforce that we are out of time to prepare and can only gather the fleet and head to Earth. Which you do moments later and it would have been impossible if the Reapers were guarding every Relay.

Leviathan says...Leviathan is in hiding on a single or perhaps a few planets with only its Artifacts to watch the universe through and unless it has one of those Artifacts planted so that it has been able to view every single Reaper construction process through time it is only making a qualified guess.

Harbinger on the other hand has this to say about the species of this cycle:

“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”

“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”

“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”

“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”

“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”

“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”

Clearly not every species is fit for ascension so it stands to reason not every cycle resulted in the creation of a new Reaper.

Even more so on the Reaper number question. If the Reapers had such overhwleming odds, why do they fear Shepard? In fact why even set up this entire charade with the Citadel and divide and conquor tactics every cycle and perhaps most importantly if they truly are so many then why does the Harvest take so long? It was multiple generations with the Protheans (as known by the fact that Protheans later in the cycle had never seen the Citadel as it feel before theri birth) and Liara estimates 100 years for this cycle.

But why all these charades, why use the Geth to wipe out the Quarians when they could have moved in with a thousand Sovereign class Reapers and mowed down the entire thing in a few hours, Geth and Quarian alike? If they have so many Sovereign class Reapers why leave Destroyers to guard important objectives like the Shroud and the Geth control signal? Why not a Sovereign class Reaper?

The bit about fearing Shepard is the most telling. Fear implies that they think he can end the cycle, end them, but if there are so many of them then why are they afraid, one man cant end them...unless they know he can end the Cycle through the use of Destroy...but wait they dont know about the Crucible. But if they did and what it does, should they not also see hope, a chance to solve the problem they were created to handle once and for all, manipulate Shepard towards that?

The answer is simple, there arent as many reapers as you believe. Sure there are more than enough to take us in a straight fight, but they are not as invincible as they want us to believe, a fact which is underlined throughout the game as we hear about Reapers beeing taken down from unconventional tactics such as smuggling nukes on board them or using hit and run tactics with Dreadnoughts. In fact it is mentioned how the Reapers specifically target nuke silos and collapse them. And on Illium a small fleet of mercenaries armed with nukes took out the Reapers harvester and troop transport ships slowing the harvesting to a crawl in that sector.

They have lost their element of suprise and know a united galaxy can hurt them badly and Shepard can unite the galaxy against them, that is why they fear him. But a galaxy united by one man can be undone by the same man, that is why they want to Indoctrinate him.

Also Shepard looks no worse in the Breath scene than he did when he stood up after Harbingers beam, at least if you ask me. Maybe except the metal piece sticking through his leg.

-I agree it's just a gameplay mechanic, but Reapers are shown to be fighting on worlds such as Thessia, Tuchanka, and Palavan so they aren't all on Earth. As to why even with their numbers, Vigil staes that "the extermination of an entire species is a long, slow process. Years passed. Decades. Centuries. The Reapers were persistant". The majority of a harvest is hunting down every single colony that can sustain a population. Also, the entire game takes place in under a few months so even the Reapers can't dominate an entire galaxy that quickly, especially one somewhat prepared as you stated.
-The reason they have Destroyers in those positions is probably just to be boss battles since even Kalros is no match to a dreadnaught one on one.
- never heard those dialogue options, so thanks for pointing those out.. Must be a glitch in my game.
-I'd say they aren't afraid of Shepard, but are wary since Shepard has done things that were considered impossible even to them. I also believe Harbinger somewhat respects you, but that's just an opinion of mine since he speaks of you by name to the other Reapers.
-That rebar sticking through Shepard's leg is why I think Shepard's out of the fight, though I never experience that scene anyway so it doesn't exist in my particular MEU.

Sorry this got all jumbled up.


Harbinger respects you? Can somebody post that link with all the harbinger quotes that make it quite clear there is no respect. It's simply a thing that wants to take control of you. It is not capable of respect. Isn't harbinger a reaper? Or is it a collector? I''m confused on that point since I never really thought about it.

#40978
spotlessvoid
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 02:53

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Synthesis accomplishes nothing as you just readily admitted. It's an adolescent fantasy of wanting to be part robot that stems from a deep insecurity. That you would readily annihilate the very concept of organic life in that pursuit is disconcerting. The fact that it's all on the Reaper leaders recommendation is just beyond the pale. It's laughable

#40979
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 02:55

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

"I'm a transhumanist"

If you had any idea all the baggage that comes with that ideology. Will we one day surpass our fleshy bodies? Inevitably. Not like this though. This messianic complex of changing all other life to fit your world view is putrid and vile. It's also profoundly naive and displays a total lack of understanding of how conflict arises. Your final solution doesn't solve anything. Every transhumanist I've ever spoken to or read their writings have been at their core: deeply antihuman.

I'll admit that I don't like the "it's forced on everybody" part, but overall I like it better out of all the endings actually presented: Destroy, Control, Synthesis, and Refuse. I also don't believe that Synthesis will result in eternal peace simply because nature demands competition. It's how life and societies evolve. In most cases of scifi(that I know of anyway) that involve transhumanism have plenty of conflict in it. It just involves those in conflict being a transhuman/cyborg/android/etc.


The point is moot. It is not happening. You are arguing for a delusion. You are siding with mind manipulation. You are not capable of seeing the levels within the game. They are there and they are clear. You have to approach it as you would a well written piece of literature and examine all in game information. Fact is the agenda was always to destroy. Edi even finds reapers so REPULSIVE that she would risk nonfunctionality to destroy them. IN GAME QUOTE! She prefers organics. She wants to destroy reapers. And yet, in the ending they use her voice and give it a utopian quality. But EDI had changed her core progamming toward altruism and other human traits. She had decided that the reapers had to be destroyed? Now she is narrating synthesis and saying how amazing it is? That does not follow. EDI was a synthetic and not changed by synthesis. So why did EDI suddenly change her view? Why is she not looking at what has happened having a million questions like she generally does when something important happens in game? Because the ending is not real. EDI is not speaking. It is a delusion.

#40980
dreamgazer
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 02:58

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byne wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

"Our most experienced technical experts are assisting with the Crucible. We have more experience with unfamiliar technologies than any other species, and I promise you that we will burn the Reapers from the sky as soon as the Crucible is installed."

- Admiral Shala'Raan


The fact that Raan knows ahead of time that the Crucible will have to be installed into something is interesting.


Isn't there some significant cut content for Raan that some speculated might turn into DLC?

That was Xen. Nevermind.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 29 octobre 2012 - 03:04 .

#40981
Hanako Ikezawa
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 02:59

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Synthesis accomplishes nothing as you just readily admitted. It's an adolescent fantasy of wanting to be part robot that stems from a deep insecurity. That you would readily annihilate the very concept of organic life in that pursuit is disconcerting. The fact that it's all on the Reaper leaders recommendation is just beyond the pale. It's laughable

Actually, it's more a decision to aid the galaxy by doing things such as removing diseases and such as well as the fulfillment of my wish since ME1 to make Reapers allies come true. Also, everybody survives synthesis so that's something quite large that was just accomplished. You're clearly distressed by my choice no matter how I explain it so I'll let you believe what you want.

#40982
Hanako Ikezawa
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:03

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starlitegirlx wrote...
The point is moot. It is not happening. You are arguing for a delusion. You are siding with mind manipulation. You are not capable of seeing the levels within the game. They are there and they are clear. You have to approach it as you would a well written piece of literature and examine all in game information. Fact is the agenda was always to destroy. Edi even finds reapers so REPULSIVE that she would risk nonfunctionality to destroy them. IN GAME QUOTE! She prefers organics. She wants to destroy reapers. And yet, in the ending they use her voice and give it a utopian quality. But EDI had changed her core progamming toward altruism and other human traits. She had decided that the reapers had to be destroyed? Now she is narrating synthesis and saying how amazing it is? That does not follow. EDI was a synthetic and not changed by synthesis. So why did EDI suddenly change her view? Why is she not looking at what has happened having a million questions like she generally does when something important happens in game? Because the ending is not real. EDI is not speaking. It is a delusion.

My agenda was to defeat the Reapers, never destroy them.

starlitegirlx wrote...
Harbinger respects you? Can somebody post that link with all the harbinger quotes that make it quite clear there is no respect. It's simply a thing that wants to take control of you. It is not capable of respect. Isn't harbinger a reaper? Or is it a collector? I''m confused on that point since I never really thought about it.

I mean after the events of ME2 and Arrival. The fact that the lader of the Reapers refers to a single organic by name speaks volumes.

#40983
Simon_Says
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:04

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Oh my God. This thread is still going? I really think it's best that you just give up and let it be. It's obvious by this point that Bioware is allowing this thread to live only because they don't want the backlash if it gets shut down. I mean, it's so obvious. IT is a crap theory now, and you should feel like crap for taking it seriously. Psych.

Wow it's been long. What up? Did I miss anything especially interesting?

Modifié par Simon_Says, 29 octobre 2012 - 03:05 .

#40984
byne
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:04

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...


Actually, it's more a decision to aid the galaxy by doing things such as removing diseases and such as well as the fulfillment of my wish since ME1 to make Reapers allies come true. Also, everybody survives synthesis so that's something quite large that was just accomplished. You're clearly distressed by my choice no matter how I explain it so I'll let you believe what you want.


I'll never understand people like you. The Reapers are abominations. Whether or not you see them as ultimately being the victim is irrelevant. They're monsters and need to be put down.

#40985
byne
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:05

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Simon_Says wrote...

Oh my God. This thread is still going? I really think it's best that you just give up and let it be. It's obvious by this point that Bioware is allowing this thread to live only because they don't want the backlash if it gets shut down. I mean, it's so obvious. IT is a crap theory now, and you should feel like crap for taking it seriously. Psych.


I was extremely disappoint in you until the very last word.

#40986
spotlessvoid
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:09

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That's because it's unjustifiable. There is no logical way to explain it. You have literally annihilated an entire form of life: Organics. You're playing god with the entire galaxy. And the whole be friends with the Reapers is so mind blowing in it's idiocy that I can't stand to even think about it or you for another moment. Can we please have our IT thread back to, you know, discuss IT. You can go back to your synthesis thread to discuss synthesis.

#40987
Hanako Ikezawa
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:12

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spotlessvoid wrote...

That's because it's unjustifiable. There is no logical way to explain it. You have literally annihilated an entire form of life: Organics. You're playing god with the entire galaxy. And the whole be friends with the Reapers is so mind blowing in it's idiocy that I can't stand to even think about it or you for another moment. Can we please have our IT thread back to, you know, discuss IT. You can go back to your synthesis thread to discuss synthesis.

Hey, i came to ask stuff about IH, but then everyone went after me for not openly supporting the idea. But fine, have it back. I couldn't care less.

#40988
spotlessvoid
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:14

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Simon! Drop a gem on us and lets get this conversation back on track

#40989
GethPrimeMKII
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:14

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*See's yet another synthesis debate happening. Walks out*

#40990
spotlessvoid
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:15

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Thank you for stopping by. We'll never agree on this so it's pointless to continue.

#40991
TheWill
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:16

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i take all the things important characters within the game say.. and use their opinions to influence my decisions and why i make them...

i never pick synthesis because of what eve says about technology making their lives too easy..so they looked for challenges within each other.. which ended up with them in their current "animal" like state...
a world of true equality would be truly boring.. no true individuals... no more progression...

#40992
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:18

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Synthesis accomplishes nothing as you just readily admitted. It's an adolescent fantasy of wanting to be part robot that stems from a deep insecurity. That you would readily annihilate the very concept of organic life in that pursuit is disconcerting. The fact that it's all on the Reaper leaders recommendation is just beyond the pale. It's laughable

Actually, it's more a decision to aid the galaxy by doing things such as removing diseases and such as well as the fulfillment of my wish since ME1 to make Reapers allies come true. Also, everybody survives synthesis so that's something quite large that was just accomplished. You're clearly distressed by my choice no matter how I explain it so I'll let you believe what you want.


So you want to play God. Nice.

You are not letting us believe what we want. That is another God implication. You have no ability to let or not let us believe anything. Free will does that, a thing which you destroyed when you chose synthesis. Seriously, you've got some major issues with power and control and wanting to change things, even if well intentionted, at the cost of the entire galaxy losing its organic nature. You are clearly not capable of accepting the world and life as it is and railing against it. If ridding the world of disease was your primary reason behind choosing synthesis - and thereby killing all organic life is your way of ridding the world of disease then that is something you should really ponder. Basically your logic is 'I don't want there to be any disease in the world, so I will change every organic thing into a machine.' You did not rid the world of disease with this choice. You rid the world of organic life. Of course, you neglect to see the that now that everything is a machine born of some kind of reaper interference, it is basically a reaper tool. It is as Saren was in ME 1. Did you forget that Sovereign was able to take direct control of Saren? That is a proven in game fact. Once you choose synthesis, you remove free will. Saren did it to stregthen his resolve, which was really to say that he removed all doubts by removing free will. Saren, without realizing it, though it is the logical conclusion, choose indoctrination because he didn't want anymore doubts. Organics have doubts. It is the nature of free will. Choices are part of free will. People will at times doubt their choices unless that free will is removed. Saren chose to remove those doubts via synthesis and in doing so was giving control to saren and became fully indoctrinated until he realized it then kills himself. Even he chose death over synthesis after choosing synthesis. And when he died, sovereign used him as a tool and assumed direct control. That is the choice you have made when choosing synthesis. Yes, no more disease, but at the cost of no more free will and indoctrination of an entire galaxy. Good going there. Really. Pat on the back to you for choosing to rid the galaxy of disease by turning everyone into a robot.

#40993
Hrothdane
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:24

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Simon_Says wrote...

Oh my God. This thread is still going? I really think it's best that you just give up and let it be. It's obvious by this point that Bioware is allowing this thread to live only because they don't want the backlash if it gets shut down. I mean, it's so obvious. IT is a crap theory now, and you should feel like crap for taking it seriously. Psych.

Wow it's been long. What up? Did I miss anything especially interesting?


Simon! Glad to see you again.

Lots of stuff, but the latest is that Chris mentioned that they are working on something called Project X, coincidentally the same name as the IT DLC clevernoob supposedly found out about.

#40994
Restrider
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:28

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...
I don't agree with the harvest of species, hence I don't choose refuse. I know an AI is fallible, but he believes he's right which is what I'm trying to say. The Catalyst views all life as data (seen this somewhere before but can't place it). Also, Synthesis was in my mind when I entered the decision chamber due to our old friend Saren Arterius and I had just completed ME1 & 2 before playing 3.

And that didn't concern you? Not even a little bit...?

#40995
MaximizedAction
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:28

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byne wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...


Actually, it's more a decision to aid the galaxy by doing things such as removing diseases and such as well as the fulfillment of my wish since ME1 to make Reapers allies come true. Also, everybody survives synthesis so that's something quite large that was just accomplished. You're clearly distressed by my choice no matter how I explain it so I'll let you believe what you want.


I'll never understand people like you. The Reapers are abominations. Whether or not you see them as ultimately being the victim is irrelevant. They're monsters and need to be put down.


I bet IRL his opinion would be different.
I assume the more the player sees it as *just* a game, the less he/she projects his own personality and mind on what's happening in the story, i.e. takes it serious enough to actually invest brain-process power into it.

Can't blame 'em, though. I myself had to force myself at first to really dislike the Reapers in ME3...somehow ME1/2 make it easier. But then again, the whole 'beauty' of it is that this can be explained with indoctrination.

#40996
Unschuld
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:35

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Restrider wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
I don't agree with the harvest of species, hence I don't choose refuse. I know an AI is fallible, but he believes he's right which is what I'm trying to say. The Catalyst views all life as data (seen this somewhere before but can't place it). Also, Synthesis was in my mind when I entered the decision chamber due to our old friend Saren Arterius and I had just completed ME1 & 2 before playing 3.

And that didn't concern you? Not even a little bit...?


Talk about reverse psychology...

#40997
Arashi08
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:37

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So more synthesis debates eh? I did want to add my input really quick but after this I promise I won't argue it further:
For me, the notion of Synthesis is a horrible and wrong choice as far as my spiritual beliefs go. Now while my beliefs are not necessarily the dominant one of the world, I think the core beliefs are present in alot of other spiritual beliefs around the world. And while we don't know a great deal about the other races religions I think we have an understanding about some of them. I think that the Asari's Siarist views go against synthesis at least because they believe in a diverse galactic community and that all life is connected and not separate.

Now my point is that Synthesis is not a unanimously agreed upon. I can't imagine it could be, and yet Shepard is going to force it on the entire galaxy. because of this, synthesis is by logic, morally wrong because you must force it on the galaxy. And the conclusion that someone might draw where they may say something like. "Well I know the galaxy may not like it at first, but this is for the best." is an arrogant notion that basically says "I know better than the rest of the galaxy and even the natural order what is best for all life." That is a god complex and is arrogance and ignorance on a level that is astounding as far as I'm concerned.

Life is not separate, and elevating yourself above all life in such a way will inevitably have negative repercussions, just look at the Leviathans.

Modifié par Arashi08, 29 octobre 2012 - 03:37 .

#40998
GethPrimeMKII
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:38

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Synthesis accomplishes nothing as you just readily admitted. It's an adolescent fantasy of wanting to be part robot that stems from a deep insecurity. That you would readily annihilate the very concept of organic life in that pursuit is disconcerting. The fact that it's all on the Reaper leaders recommendation is just beyond the pale. It's laughable


Actually, it's more a decision to aid the galaxy by doing things such as removing diseases and such as well as the fulfillment of my wish since ME1 to make Reapers allies come true. Also, everybody survives synthesis so that's something quite large that was just accomplished. You're clearly distressed by my choice no matter how I explain it so I'll let you believe what you want.



You're doing more than just freeing the world from diseases and stopping additional lives from being lost. You're also having to radically change how everyone thinks.

Fast forwarding to the apex of evolution is not going to make anyone forget the atrocities commited by their new-found allies, the Reapers. Javik is still going to want to kill himself some Reapers, with or without neon circuit viens. 

Your vision of peace and harmony requires everyones' minds to be forcibly rewritten in order to live in peace with the monsters that were killing them by the millions not too long ago. What do you call it when one's mind is rewritten to accept the Reapers? Indoctrination.

#40999
Unschuld
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:39

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Hrothdane wrote...

Simon! Glad to see you again.

Lots of stuff, but the latest is that Chris mentioned that they are working on something called Project X, coincidentally the same name as the IT DLC clevernoob supposedly found out about.


This could go two ways; either he's playing coy or it's just a mere coincidence. I'd take it along the same lines as when Priestly shot the fan question "so what do you think about the indoctrination theory?" at Gamble at PAX East. The intonation of the question and the response could have either been hinting or lighthearted mockery. In other words, it could go either way.

#41000
Hrothdane
Posté 29 octobre 2012 - 03:44

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Unschuld wrote...

This could go two ways; either he's playing coy or it's just a mere coincidence. I'd take it along the same lines as when Priestly shot the fan question "so what do you think about the indoctrination theory?" at Gamble at PAX East. The intonation of the question and the response could have either been hinting or lighthearted mockery. In other words, it could go either way.


If it's a coincidence, then it's one Chris is aware of because he's he person that came into the Project X thread and denied it. 

It probably means nothing, but I can entertain the idea that it means something without accepting it.
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