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[FFZero]

I'm here, sort of. Playing MP right now.

Just to try and get some speculations going, if IT pans out like most of us hope and we get post-breath scene content where the Reapers still need to be beaten how do you see us/Shepard doing it? Long drawn out battle using hit and run tactics or something else?

[DoomsdayDevice]

Posted this in another thread, might as well share:

It's about the symbolism of the crucible in the endings.

It is about not following the path the Reapers have laid out for us. By using Reaper technology, we develop exactly the way they want us to. It's all to facilitate the harvest.

When you destroy the Collector base, Legion compliments you for refusing everything the Reapers are offering us; true unity, understanding, transcendence. He says that by refusing the Reapers' gifts, we can achieve our own future, and that's what it is all about.

But it's also about the quick and easy (power hungry) path. By using technology that we do not fully understand, we think we can do things more easily, but because of our lack of understanding, we are at great risk. We are literally not ready to use that which we do not understand.

In Overlord, they are conducting an experiment. They are hooking up a person to a VI (only a VI, note), but they do not understand what will happen. They want to use it to control an entire people in order to avoid a bloody war. Now, wanting to mind control an entire people is of course a morally wrong means of achieving peace. It sounds good at first glance, a victory without casualties. But the end justifies the wrong means.

It is a common theme that the means will then backfire. It is a common theme in literature and cinema. Just look at Star Wars.

Anakin Skywalker wants to save his wife from death. Good intentions. In order to do so, he joins the dark side. (Which Yoda says is the quick and easy path, but once you start down that path, it will forever dominate your destiny.) In short: the end justifies the means. But the means are backfiring, because by joining the dark side, he causes his wife so much grief that she dies.

Anakin wants to save his wife, but because of the quick and easy path, he ends up killing her.
Same goes for Archer. He who wants to control the machines, ends up being controlled by the machine.

It's not anti-tech. It's not anti-synthetic. It's about not choosing the quick and easy (space magic! no casualties!) path. And certainly not the Reaper path.

The quick and easy path is symbolized by the Crucible itself. We do not know how it works, but we are following the path others have laid out for us (probably the Reapers themselves), hoping that it will be a quick and easy way to get rid of the Reapers. We are not ready to use it. We do not understand it. We do not know what will happen. And we should not conduct the experiment with the entire galaxy at risk.

By using it (like we do in control and synthesis), we doom ourselves. We follow the Reaper path. By blowing it up (like we do in destroy), we are achieving our own future, symbolically speaking.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 30 octobre 2012 - 03:51 .

[masster blaster]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

So I'm not a proponent of IT by any means, and I apologize if people have already said this before but I've been thinking about IT and the EC. I have no idea what the state of current IT thought is, so pardon me if I say something that doesn't fit in with the ongoing conversation.

A lot of people seem to think it weakens IT, but I'd disagree. I think it strengthens it, or at worst doesn't do anything to it.

Why? The symbolism of the end choice work and the resulting cinematics.

Before the weird dream like bit Shepard pauses in the line of fire of Harbinger. A quick roll and Shepard probably could dodge enough out of the way to survive. Go left, or go right, and Shepard lives. Then we have the final choice:

Left side is control, right side is destroy, middle is jumping into the beam and dying.

So really, the choice represents Shepard dodging or not. And this is reflected in the final cutscenes. If you choose control, Shepard survives but is indoctrinated. Symbolically her body is burnt away, but this is all happening inside her head so it represents indoctrination. The final cutscene literally shows Shepard's visage inside a Reaper. Shepard is gooified and is literally in a Reaper if she is indoctrinated. The video doesn't show any lies, only misrepresentations. Shepard's dialogue is her indoctrinated envisioning of what is really happening. The Reapers loom around the cities that are being rebuilt, but in reality these cities exist inside the Reapers themselves. It is like the matrix, but the minds contained within a Reaper are all indoctrinated (hence the Reapers helping them, yet no sign of violence against Reapers).

A similar thing happens for Synthesis, only Shepard was just vaporized and everyone else is indoctrinated. EDI narrates because she was re-purposed by the Reapers, sort of like the Geth but not quite, and the green circuitry and the unification of machine and man is EDI's 'version' of indoctrination. It is what she wanted, and so it is the vision that lets the Reapers control her. While she is an AI, she was a fully thinking AI, and so unlike the Geth the Reapers' control of her is more like indoctrination than hacking a machine.

And then finally we have Destroy. Shepard dodges the beam, is hurt from the explosion, but lives to fight another day as she has not been indoctrinated. The scenes in the slide show and Hackett's voice over are Shepard's will fighting to wake up and get back into the fight (and a bit of Hackett actually talking over the radio).

Anyway, it seems to fit pretty nicely into IT. Particularly because the choices visually mirror the 3 choices Shepard has to get out of the way of Harbinger's blast right before the 'dream sequence' starts.

Like I said, I don't believe IT, I don't follow this thread, and so I apologize if what I'm saying is trivial, has been said a million times, or is incredibly stupid and useless to the current state of IT thinking.

Not at all, it actually is the main thing we talked about this month. Also EC, and Leviathan boosted IT way to up. Good way I mean. It's more alive but people just dis Leviathan, even thought it proves that the endings/the end run could be all fake, and we are in Shepard's head fighting the Indoctrination.

[DoomsdayDevice]

FFZero wrote...

I'm here, sort of. Playing MP right now.

Just to try and get some speculations going, if IT pans out like most of us hope and we get post-breath scene content where the Reapers still need to be beaten how do you see us/Shepard doing it? Long drawn out battle using hit and run tactics or something else?

If we get anything of the sort (still not counting on it), I suspect that because Harbinger is made from harvested Leviathans, all Reapers are being controlled by Harbinger.

I suspect it will be a 'simple' matter of bringing the full force of Hammer and Sword to bear on Harby. Like taking out the droid control ship in Star Wars.

[masster blaster]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

FFZero wrote...

I'm here, sort of. Playing MP right now.

Just to try and get some speculations going, if IT pans out like most of us hope and we get post-breath scene content where the Reapers still need to be beaten how do you see us/Shepard doing it? Long drawn out battle using hit and run tactics or something else?

If we get anything of the sort (still not counting on it), I suspect that because Harbinger is made from harvested Leviathans, all Reapers are being controlled by Harbinger.

I suspect it will be a 'simple' matter of bringing the full force of Hammer and Sword to bear on Harby. Like taking out the droid control ship in Star Wars.

Hence the Normandy kills Harbinger off with a Thanix shot to his head, or eyes.

Harbinger" Shepard this is only the beginning. Your species as well as this cycle will fall in the upcoming centuarys ahead. You are vermin, and soon your children will soon learn the meaning of fear. The Chaos is coming and none can stop it."

Shepard " And we will be waiting weather I am alive or dead we will stop this threat, and we will fight it together as one."

Harbinger: Your are not prepared for what is to come. Your allies will fail one by one. Your species shall be the first to fall, and your children will pay for your ignorins this day. You can not fight the Chaos Shepard no one can."

Shepard " Maybe your right maybe will will not win, yet that doesn't matter once your dead and your Reapers our next step is to rebuild the galaxy, and when this Chaos from what ever galaxy it comes from. It will end here."

[Hanako Ikezawa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

It's possible (no offence to anyone who actually suffers from this) some of these people have Asperger's syndrome. You know, having a literal mind, not being able to make sense of symbolism, having trouble making associations...

A friend of mine IRL has it. Sometimes it's hard to communicate with him. He doesn't understand metaphors, for one.

I do, in fact, have Asperger's Syndrone, so maybe that's why I don't get it.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Guys, I was playing multiplayer with my headphones, and I noticed for the first time in London that you can actually hear Reaper horns in the background.

Is that new? Or were they always there? I always heard the sirens, but never any Reaper horns.

I thought it was awesome.

[DoomsdayDevice]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

It's possible (no offence to anyone who actually suffers from this) some of these people have Asperger's syndrome. You know, having a literal mind, not being able to make sense of symbolism, having trouble making associations...

A friend of mine IRL has it. Sometimes it's hard to communicate with him. He doesn't understand metaphors, for one.

I do, in fact, have Asperger's Syndrone, so maybe that's why I don't get it.

I'm so sorry, I had no idea.

In any case, I enjoyed the debate I had with you in the other thread. Even though we disagree, there is no hostility between us.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 30 octobre 2012 - 04:18 .

[FFZero]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Guys, I was playing multiplayer with my headphones, and I noticed for the first time in London that you can actually hear Reaper horns in the background.

Is that new? Or were they always there? I always heard the sirens, but never any Reaper horns.

I thought it was awesome.

AFAIK they've always been there, I've always heard them anyway.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Guys, I'm off to bed. Would love to find some thoughts on my wall of text above when I wake up tomorrow. =)

Toodles!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

It's possible (no offence to anyone who actually suffers from this) some of these people have Asperger's syndrome. You know, having a literal mind, not being able to make sense of symbolism, having trouble making associations...

A friend of mine IRL has it. Sometimes it's hard to communicate with him. He doesn't understand metaphors, for one.

I do, in fact, have Asperger's Syndrone, so maybe that's why I don't get it.

I'm so sorry, I had no idea.

In any case, I enjoyed the debate I had with you in the other thread. Even though we disagree, there is no hostility between us.

It's okay, you had no way to know & I enjoyed the debate as well. It's interesting to see, or at least try to, other people's viewpoints.

[masster blaster]

I am sorry Revan. Also guys Leviathan also pointed something else out in the end game of ME3. You remember the Prothean orb we found in ME2, well yes we have talked about it, but something just hit me.

Leviathans have been keeping notes on Shepard ever since Nazar died. They knew about what happened to the Collectors, Nazar, and what the Reapers have been doing.

So the thing I am trying to say is that. Leviathans want Shepard, yet as long as the Reapers are after Shepard. They can't have Shepard. Also notice when you are a lone Shepard seems lost, scared, and weak minded.

He/she is not sure about him/herself, and is always wondering about is this war worth it. Yet The friends he/she has made are always telling Shepard that we are doing the right thing, and what ever happence we are their for you.

Yet when your alone with Leviathan your Shepard's willpower is Zero.
Hence the end. Your alone with the Catalyst. Reaper Leader the Master of Indoctrination. Harvester of millions of cycles, and the most hated character in game history.

[Eryri]

FFZero wrote...

I'm here, sort of. Playing MP right now.

Just to try and get some speculations going, if IT pans out like most of us hope and we get post-breath scene content where the Reapers still need to be beaten how do you see us/Shepard doing it? Long drawn out battle using hit and run tactics or something else?

I'm here, thanks to insomnia.

I'd prefer that the Reapers weren't completely wiped out by quick and easy space magic.

Maybe killing Harbinger would disorient the reapers if he's some kind of control nexus? Before the Reapers can re-organise their collective, the Hammer fleet could score a decisive, but incomplete victory and drive them away from Earth. 

We could then have a drawn-out, tactical war where we retake the rest of the galaxy system by system in future installments.

EDIT: I also like the idea Raistlin had, of using the citadel master relay to invade the reaper's base in dark space.

Modifié par Eryri, 30 octobre 2012 - 04:40 .

[CmdrShep80]

I'm here after reading through 15 pages of literal endings and AC3 endings LOL

[CmdrShep80]

and no Bill I didn't click on the AC3 spoiler. I have to wait a whole 19 days after release so I'm going to try to savor the ending in whatever form it is, particularly if I can avoid watching it

EDIT - AC3 for me will be like how ME3 was for new folks coming into the series so we'll see how my play experience goes.  IN the meantime back to ME3 spoilers

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 30 octobre 2012 - 04:44 .

[CosmicGnosis]

*Slowly steps into thread*

... Hi, guys. First time I've ever posted in here. Just seeing what's going on. So, I'm a "literalist" because I think the ending is more interesting when you debate the merits of the choices. IT, however, negates all but one choice. I don't think that's very interesting.

Do you guys think IT makes the story more interesting, or do you think the evidence is so overwhelming that even if it isn't as interesting, you still have to accept that IT is real?

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 30 octobre 2012 - 04:47 .

[Eryri]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Posted this in another thread, might as well share:

It's about the symbolism of the crucible in the endings.

It is about not following the path the Reapers have laid out for us. By using Reaper technology, we develop exactly the way they want us to. It's all to facilitate the harvest.

When you destroy the Collector base, Legion compliments you for refusing everything the Reapers are offering us; true unity, understanding, transcendence. He says that by refusing the Reapers' gifts, we can achieve our own future, and that's what it is all about.

But it's also about the quick and easy (power hungry) path. By using technology that we do not fully understand, we think we can do things more easily, but because of our lack of understanding, we are at great risk. We are literally not ready to use that which we do not understand.

In Overlord, they are conducting an experiment. They are hooking up a person to a VI (only a VI, note), but they do not understand what will happen. They want to use it to control an entire people in order to avoid a bloody war. Now, wanting to mind control an entire people is of course a morally wrong means of achieving peace. It sounds good at first glance, a victory without casualties. But the end justifies the wrong means.

It is a common theme that the means will then backfire. It is a common theme in literature and cinema. Just look at Star Wars.

Anakin Skywalker wants to save his wife from death. Good intentions. In order to do so, he joins the dark side. (Which Yoda says is the quick and easy path, but once you start down that path, it will forever dominate your destiny.) In short: the end justifies the means. But the means are backfiring, because by joining the dark side, he causes his wife so much grief that she dies.

Anakin wants to save his wife, but because of the quick and easy path, he ends up killing her.
Same goes for Archer. He who wants to control the machines, ends up being controlled by the machine.

It's not anti-tech. It's not anti-synthetic. It's about not choosing the quick and easy (space magic! no casualties!) path. And certainly not the Reaper path.

The quick and easy path is symbolized by the Crucible itself. We do not know how it works, but we are following the path others have laid out for us (probably the Reapers themselves), hoping that it will be a quick and easy way to get rid of the Reapers. We are not ready to use it. We do not understand it. We do not know what will happen. And we should not conduct the experiment with the entire galaxy at risk.

By using it (like we do in control and synthesis), we doom ourselves. We follow the Reaper path. By blowing it up (like we do in destroy), we are achieving our own future, symbolically speaking.

That's a very good analysis.

Other examples in popular culture I can think of are Jurassic Park and LotR. In JP, Jeff Goldblum's character criticises Ingen's use of technological power because "it didn't require any discipline to attain it."

And of course in LotR Gandalf and Galadriel both refuse to weild the power of the ring to acheive a quick and easy victory, because they know the price will be their souls.

[masster blaster]

Oh and you know what's funny. Shepard thinks this whole thing is a war, but brat is like " No it's a Harvest "

I will say this. Look there is no War, and there is no harvest. There is only...The iradiaction if all life. Harbinger is the beginning Shepard is the end. Harbinger is Shepard's darker side. While Shepard is Harbingers lighter side.

Also isn't it funny that the child knows what the Crucible already does yet it can't make it happened because it needs Shepard to do it for him.

Honest it just told use what was going to happen like it forsaw what we were going to ask. Honestly it hated Destroy, and I wonder why. It's not the it could just tell the Reapers to blow up the Crucible because it doesn't want to die.

Think about it he tells us that the cycle will start all over. All it's work would be gone, and I know for a fact that this AI/ Harbinger wouldn't let Shepard make the choose Destroy, unless it couldn't comprihend Shepard's willpower.

The more assets you get. The more hope Shepard has, and the more of a threat he/she is to the Reapers.

[masster blaster]

Gnosis IT is awsome yet people believe in facts not theorys. Yet our theory is pretty much have been speculating on the endings of ME3 for about 8 months. Also we debate about the merits of the themes of ME, and well if your a literalist then okay. We have literalist friends that believe in the endings, yet they like IT, and wish it were true.    okay this krogan needs some zzzz. night everyone and its good to be back. e.

Modifié par masster blaster, 30 octobre 2012 - 04:54 .

[Eryri]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

*Slowly steps into thread*

... Hi, guys. First time I've ever posted in here. Just seeing what's going on. So, I'm a "literalist" because I think the ending is more interesting when you debate the merits of the choices. IT, however, negates all but one choice. I don't think that's very interesting.

Do you guys think IT makes the story more interesting, or do you think the evidence is so overwhelming that even if it isn't as interesting, you still have to accept that IT is real?

Hi, welcome to the thread! Always good to have a new viewpoint.

In answer to your question - with me it's a little of both. The endings are full of dream-like qualities that seem deliberate, although only Bioware knows if they are. But I also find the concept intriguing, not least because it makes the Reapers even more menacing and powerful. 

Not only are they skyscraper sized behemoths armed with lasers, they're also machiavellian manipulators who can capriciously play with the minds of lesser beings.

Plus IT is about the only way I can think of to continue Shepard's story into the future. I'd like to see post breath scene content where Shep truly triumphs over Harbinger and is reunited with his friends and LI.

Modifié par Eryri, 30 octobre 2012 - 04:59 .

[CmdrShep80]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

*Slowly steps into thread*

... Hi, guys. First time I've ever posted in here. Just seeing what's going on. So, I'm a "literalist" because I think the ending is more interesting when you debate the merits of the choices. IT, however, negates all but one choice. I don't think that's very interesting.

Do you guys think IT makes the story more interesting, or do you think the evidence is so overwhelming that even if it isn't as interesting, you still have to accept that IT is real?

Welcome!  I do think that IT makes the overall story more interesting.  I find that there are mysteries around every corner and if you're good, you can connect the dots that give you an interesting picture.  I don't think that IT negates the othe 3 choices.  I do think people are entitled to the choices they make really.  Though what happens the more you explore IT, the more you start to wonder about the choice you made and what it might do for you.  I originally started out picking Synthesis but in my attempt to argue about the kid and the choices, I realized a line the kid said, "You will not lose more than you've already lost."  The kid said this under destroy.  That and the vids in the signature really helped bring an easier light onto IT.  I am now going to try to aim for the destroy breath scene (it may sound as if I'm negating the other options, I'm not, I am just finding the destroy breath scene to be a bit more appealing for a variety of reasons that I didn't notice before).  I haven't played it yet though.  I'm waiting on the dlcs first.  Beats replaing it over and over you know.  Though I might go for it after Omega

[Dwailing]

I just watched the AC3 ending. I have no problem with it. And at least we KNOW there will be more.

[CosmicGnosis]

So as far back as ME1, I accepted the Reapers as valid sapient beings. I also considered the possibility that we wouldn't be able to beat them, and that a mutual peace would probably be the most likely way to end the harvest. I wasn't sure what the details would be, but I figured that the story would go in this direction. It wasn't like Saren, though. Basically, we would somehow convince the Reapers to end the harvest.

Was I indoctrinated all the way back in ME1?

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 30 octobre 2012 - 05:33 .

[Eryri]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

So as far back as ME1, I accepted the Reapers as valid sapient beings. I also considered the possibility that we wouldn't be able to beat them, and that a mutual peace would probably be the most likely way to end the harvest. I wasn't sure what the details would be, but I figured that the story would go in this direction. It wasn't like Saren, though. Basically, we would somehow convince the Reapers to end the harvest.

Was I indoctrinated all the way back in ME1?

Hmm. Were you at any time suffering from headaches or ringing in the ears? 

[BleedingUranium]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

It's possible (no offence to anyone who actually suffers from this) some of these people have Asperger's syndrome. You know, having a literal mind, not being able to make sense of symbolism, having trouble making associations...

A friend of mine IRL has it. Sometimes it's hard to communicate with him. He doesn't understand metaphors, for one.

I do, in fact, have Asperger's Syndrone, so maybe that's why I don't get it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember something about one of the effects of Asperger's being that you tend to see elements of things, and less the whole. I remember it being explained by a picture like this (best I could find).

Ignore the blue, look at the green two. While most people would see an large "F" and "T", then notice they're made out of small "T"s and "F"s, someone with Asperger's would do this in reverse; first noticing a bunch of small "T"s and "F"s, then after that notice they form a large "F" and "T".

Like I said, I might be totally wrong and misremembering things, but this could partially explain why you specifically have trouble putting pieces together as opposed to looking at each one separately. Just an idea.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 30 octobre 2012 - 05:50 .