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So you see the large letters first?
Fascinating...
Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!
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, juil. 30 2012 07:09
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#41352
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 06:02
spotlessvoid
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Cosmic Gnosis
I think probably the worst thing about the literal/IT division on bsn is that there are two parts to IT. The first one is what IT is known for: That the ending was a hallucination during an indoctrination attempt.
The second part is the discussion on thematic elements and foreshadowing against synthesis and control. This thread has really driven that discussion, and it's just as important to IT as the indoctrination attempt at the end. However, unlike the indoctrination attempt it is not only relevant in IT. Unfortunately make this distinction.
Just about the entire group of users on this thread abhor synthesis for reasons way beyond game content. Control is generally viewed a morally valid but realistically impossible.
We have accumulated a wealth of concrete examples of foreshadowing against both control and synthesis. We probably need to do a better job of providing that information separately. I would not pass up on this information just because you aren't interested in the more speculative hallucination aspects. Those parts are strong, but the foreshadowing of the choices is near irrefutable.
I think probably the worst thing about the literal/IT division on bsn is that there are two parts to IT. The first one is what IT is known for: That the ending was a hallucination during an indoctrination attempt.
The second part is the discussion on thematic elements and foreshadowing against synthesis and control. This thread has really driven that discussion, and it's just as important to IT as the indoctrination attempt at the end. However, unlike the indoctrination attempt it is not only relevant in IT. Unfortunately make this distinction.
Just about the entire group of users on this thread abhor synthesis for reasons way beyond game content. Control is generally viewed a morally valid but realistically impossible.
We have accumulated a wealth of concrete examples of foreshadowing against both control and synthesis. We probably need to do a better job of providing that information separately. I would not pass up on this information just because you aren't interested in the more speculative hallucination aspects. Those parts are strong, but the foreshadowing of the choices is near irrefutable.
#41353
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 06:12
spotlessvoid
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Bill Casey wrote...
So you see the large letters first?
Fascinating...
The distance you hold it from your face makes a big difference. If you zoom in enough that the small letters are at usual reading size and distance, your mind will first try to "read" the letters. The point Blur is making is how I understood it works too. It's a decent way to illustrate it but keep in mind it is works better when letters aren't involved
#41355
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 06:19
Rifneno
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FFZero wrote...
I'm here, sort of. Playing MP right now.
Just to try and get some speculations going, if IT pans out like most of us hope and we get post-breath scene content where the Reapers still need to be beaten how do you see us/Shepard doing it? Long drawn out battle using hit and run tactics or something else?
The only road to destroying the Reapers that I can see is using ships moving at FTL as missiles. A single frigate moving at FTL would utterly annihilate even a capital ship Reaper. The problem is that all current FTL tech is designed by the Reapers and has hardwired "safety measures" to prevent this exact thing from happening. It's about the hardest damn thing in the galaxy to hack... but it is possible to hack, as the smoking ruins on Taetrus can attest to.
Doomsday Device wrote...
If we get anything of the sort (still not counting on it), I suspect that because Harbinger is made from harvested Leviathans, all Reapers are being controlled by Harbinger.
I suspect it will be a 'simple' matter of bringing the full force of Hammer and Sword to bear on Harby. Like taking out the droid control ship in Star Wars.
It would be disappointing if the Reapers left such a crippling flaw in. Harbinger doesn't exactly stay safely behind the front lines. For all it knew, there could've been some **** in London with a fusion bomb and that would've been the end of it. No, if there is a Reaper master control (which I highly doubt) then I expect it's hidden somewhere that we'd have no hope of finding in a million generations, protected by quantum shielded armor, and only giving out its commands via untrackable QEC.
That said, the Reapers are nothing if not patient. Harbinger is the first and greatest Reaper. It's far from unheardof for organic armies to retreat if their commander falls and it's not like we've been following the same leader for a billion years or more. I could definitely see them high-tailing it back to dark space or the galactic core to re-evaulate the situation.
CosmicGnosis wrote...
*Slowly steps into thread*
... Hi, guys. First time I've ever posted in here. Just seeing what's going on. So, I'm a "literalist" because I think the ending is more interesting when you debate the merits of the choices. IT, however, negates all but one choice. I don't think that's very interesting.
Do you guys think IT makes the story more interesting, or do you think the evidence is so overwhelming that even if it isn't as interesting, you still have to accept that IT is real?
I disagree... I think it's far more interesting if they managed to trick half the playerbase (actually probably a lot more) into willingly siding with the incomprehensible horrors we've spend the last 6 years fighting.
I don't even see much interesting about the face value interpretation. All three options are utterly disgusting morally if taken literally, and they fly in the face of the literary themes of the series. And synthesis... well. The series has always been great about keeping to real science or at least scientific theories, and synthesis is the most asinine thing I've ever seen. Leaves have printed circuitry on them? C'mon. Disney wouldn't do something that eye rollingly over the top and they write stories about magic pumpkin carriages.
#41356
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 06:21
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inko1nsiderate wrote...
So I'm not a proponent of IT by any means, and I apologize if people have already said this before but I've been thinking about IT and the EC. I have no idea what the state of current IT thought is, so pardon me if I say something that doesn't fit in with the ongoing conversation.
A lot of people seem to think it weakens IT, but I'd disagree. I think it strengthens it, or at worst doesn't do anything to it.
Why? The symbolism of the end choice work and the resulting cinematics.
Before the weird dream like bit Shepard pauses in the line of fire of Harbinger. A quick roll and Shepard probably could dodge enough out of the way to survive. Go left, or go right, and Shepard lives. Then we have the final choice:
Left side is control, right side is destroy, middle is jumping into the beam and dying.
So really, the choice represents Shepard dodging or not. And this is reflected in the final cutscenes. If you choose control, Shepard survives but is indoctrinated. Symbolically her body is burnt away, but this is all happening inside her head so it represents indoctrination. The final cutscene literally shows Shepard's visage inside a Reaper. Shepard is gooified and is literally in a Reaper if she is indoctrinated. The video doesn't show any lies, only misrepresentations. Shepard's dialogue is her indoctrinated envisioning of what is really happening. The Reapers loom around the cities that are being rebuilt, but in reality these cities exist inside the Reapers themselves. It is like the matrix, but the minds contained within a Reaper are all indoctrinated (hence the Reapers helping them, yet no sign of violence against Reapers).
A similar thing happens for Synthesis, only Shepard was just vaporized and everyone else is indoctrinated. EDI narrates because she was re-purposed by the Reapers, sort of like the Geth but not quite, and the green circuitry and the unification of machine and man is EDI's 'version' of indoctrination. It is what she wanted, and so it is the vision that lets the Reapers control her. While she is an AI, she was a fully thinking AI, and so unlike the Geth the Reapers' control of her is more like indoctrination than hacking a machine.
And then finally we have Destroy. Shepard dodges the beam, is hurt from the explosion, but lives to fight another day as she has not been indoctrinated. The scenes in the slide show and Hackett's voice over are Shepard's will fighting to wake up and get back into the fight (and a bit of Hackett actually talking over the radio).
Anyway, it seems to fit pretty nicely into IT. Particularly because the choices visually mirror the 3 choices Shepard has to get out of the way of Harbinger's blast right before the 'dream sequence' starts.
Like I said, I don't believe IT, I don't follow this thread, and so I apologize if what I'm saying is trivial, has been said a million times, or is incredibly stupid and useless to the current state of IT thinking.
That's actually a very interesting take on it! Thanks
#41357
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 06:23
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DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Posted this in another thread, might as well share:
It's about the symbolism of the crucible in the endings.
It is about not following the path the Reapers have laid out for us. By using Reaper technology, we develop exactly the way they want us to. It's all to facilitate the harvest.
When you destroy the Collector base, Legion compliments you for refusing everything the Reapers are offering us; true unity, understanding, transcendence. He says that by refusing the Reapers' gifts, we can achieve our own future, and that's what it is all about.
But it's also about the quick and easy (power hungry) path. By using technology that we do not fully understand, we think we can do things more easily, but because of our lack of understanding, we are at great risk. We are literally not ready to use that which we do not understand.
In Overlord, they are conducting an experiment. They are hooking up a person to a VI (only a VI, note), but they do not understand what will happen. They want to use it to control an entire people in order to avoid a bloody war. Now, wanting to mind control an entire people is of course a morally wrong means of achieving peace. It sounds good at first glance, a victory without casualties. But the end justifies the wrong means.
It is a common theme that the means will then backfire. It is a common theme in literature and cinema. Just look at Star Wars.
Anakin Skywalker wants to save his wife from death. Good intentions. In order to do so, he joins the dark side. (Which Yoda says is the quick and easy path, but once you start down that path, it will forever dominate your destiny.) In short: the end justifies the means. But the means are backfiring, because by joining the dark side, he causes his wife so much grief that she dies.
Anakin wants to save his wife, but because of the quick and easy path, he ends up killing her.
Same goes for Archer. He who wants to control the machines, ends up being controlled by the machine.
It's not anti-tech. It's not anti-synthetic. It's about not choosing the quick and easy (space magic! no casualties!) path. And certainly not the Reaper path.
The quick and easy path is symbolized by the Crucible itself. We do not know how it works, but we are following the path others have laid out for us (probably the Reapers themselves), hoping that it will be a quick and easy way to get rid of the Reapers. We are not ready to use it. We do not understand it. We do not know what will happen. And we should not conduct the experiment with the entire galaxy at risk.
By using it (like we do in control and synthesis), we doom ourselves. We follow the Reaper path. By blowing it up (like we do in destroy), we are achieving our own future, symbolically speaking.
Control is the Dark Side.
Synthesis is the Dumb Side.
I sincerely hope my boyfriend doesn't pick Synthesis like I first did
He chose to keep the Collector Base because "I think it'll be really useful. I don't want to destroy it, I want to see what's in there."
#41358
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 06:29
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CosmicGnosis wrote...
*Slowly steps into thread*
... Hi, guys. First time I've ever posted in here. Just seeing what's going on. So, I'm a "literalist" because I think the ending is more interesting when you debate the merits of the choices. IT, however, negates all but one choice. I don't think that's very interesting.
Do you guys think IT makes the story more interesting, or do you think the evidence is so overwhelming that even if it isn't as interesting, you still have to accept that IT is real?
I consider all three endings as possible ways to continue the story in IT in interesting ways, if Bioware wills it..
I just see Control as the Dark Side, so you're corrupt by this point,
And Synthesis as the Dumb Side, so you're a mind slave by this point.
The Shep_Lives breathe video could, for all we know, be just more of an Easter Egg to show that Shepard CAN survive in all endings potentially, not just he DOES survive in only Destroy, especially if the Crucible is more representative of Shepard's mental state and resistance, instead of mortal condition.
#41359
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 06:33
Hanako Ikezawa
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That's one way to describe that symptom, but you're right. I saw the little letters first, then saw they made big letters.BleedingUranium wrote...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember something about one of the effects of Asperger's being that you tend to see elements of things, and less the whole. I remember it being explained by a picture like this (best I could find).LDS Darth Revan wrote...
I do, in fact, have Asperger's Syndrone, so maybe that's why I don't get it.DoomsdayDevice wrote...
It's possible (no offence to anyone who actually suffers from this) some of these people have Asperger's syndrome. You know, having a literal mind, not being able to make sense of symbolism, having trouble making associations...
A friend of mine IRL has it. Sometimes it's hard to communicate with him. He doesn't understand metaphors, for one.
Ignore the blue, look at the green two. While most people would see an large "F" and "T", then notice they're made out of small "T"s and "F"s, someone with Asperger's would do this in reverse; first noticing a bunch of small "T"s and "F"s, then after that notice they form a large "F" and "T".
Like I said, I might be totally wrong and misremembering things, but this could partially explain why you specifically have trouble putting pieces together as opposed to looking at each one separately. Just an idea.
#41360
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 06:34
Rifneno
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Speaking of the Collector Base, that's one thing that really gives me hope the hallucination started before London. Did you see the explosion from that base? It made the Tsar bomb like a firecracker. And the human Reaper was pretty much at ground zero. But not only did apparently the entire thing survive, but if you kept the base then you get its "brain", or its "heart" if you destroyed it? Lolwut. That's an allegory, plain and simple. Some subtle symbolism they might work in to be really happening, but that? I've got a hard time swallowing that turn of events was real.
It's also where Shepard starts encountered "converted" teammates if he did anything terribad (left Grissom to Cerberus, sold Legion to Cerberus, or killed Samara and let the space succubus loose). Those encounters always seemed more to me like Shepard's conscience (rightfully) ****-slapping him for his atrocious decisions than anything else. In 3 games we've never had to kill a former ally for a bad decision we made, but in the last 20 minutes of the game it happens THREE TIMES? You smell that? Smells fishy to me.
It's also where Shepard starts encountered "converted" teammates if he did anything terribad (left Grissom to Cerberus, sold Legion to Cerberus, or killed Samara and let the space succubus loose). Those encounters always seemed more to me like Shepard's conscience (rightfully) ****-slapping him for his atrocious decisions than anything else. In 3 games we've never had to kill a former ally for a bad decision we made, but in the last 20 minutes of the game it happens THREE TIMES? You smell that? Smells fishy to me.
#41361
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 06:34
Hanako Ikezawa
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You saw the little letters first too?Bill Casey wrote...
So you see the large letters first?
Fascinating...
#41362
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 06:41
inko1nsiderate
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LDS Darth Revan wrote...
You saw the little letters first too?Bill Casey wrote...
So you see the large letters first?
Fascinating...
People see the large letter first? I don't believe it.
#41363
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 07:04
Guest_SwobyJ_*
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inko1nsiderate wrote...
LDS Darth Revan wrote...
You saw the little letters first too?Bill Casey wrote...
So you see the large letters first?
Fascinating...
People see the large letter first? I don't believe it.
I saw the large letter first.
#41364
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 07:38
BansheeOwnage
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Sometimes different people come up with the same ideas... It's possible to be original but not unique at the same time.BatmanTurian wrote...
BansheeOwnage wrote...
I think I said something like that once...BatmanTurian wrote...
plfranke wrote...
While he shouldn't blindly repeat things other people have said, I disagree with your assertion that the only people who hate me3 endings or racists are only happening because people are blindly following the pack. Many people rationalize their hate towards me3 and their discriminations.BansheeOwnage wrote...
MassterBlaster...masster blaster wrote...
Sorry I was only trying to quote what people have been saying. I haven't seen it, but that's what people are saying.
That's exactly how blind hate for ME3's ending instead of an in-depth analysis got started. That's how racism spreads. That's why countless other bad things happen. People don't think for themselves, experience something, and make their own conclusions. Please,
please -
don't blindly repeat things other people have said.
But many more people just follow the herd. People are stupid. Individuals are not.
@Frank Sorry, I didn't mean for those to be all related. They're unrelated, but sometimes their root issues are similar. And yes, people can hate the ME3 ending for good reasons. But I was just talking about the pack.
I can't find who the original person you quoted it from is but it's been around for a while.
#41365
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 07:41
BansheeOwnage
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Hmmm. I definitely saw the little letters first. Huh. Bedtime.Bill Casey wrote...
So you see the large letters first?
Fascinating...
#41366
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 07:45
BleedingUranium
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SwobyJ wrote...
inko1nsiderate wrote...
LDS Darth Revan wrote...
You saw the little letters first too?Bill Casey wrote...
So you see the large letters first?
Fascinating...
People see the large letter first? I don't believe it.
I saw the large letter first.
This may not have been the best picture. I know the concept is true, but I grabbed what I could from Google Images, so this might not be made for this kind of psychological analysis. The concept is sound, but don't read into this particular picture to much. It's basically whole vs parts.
EDIT: Example. Just because you can all read the smallest letters on your computer screens doesn't mean you all have 20/15 vision. It's not in a setting where it's a valid test. No one go making any self-diagnoses based on my pictures
Modifié par BleedingUranium, 30 octobre 2012 - 07:49 .
#41367
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 08:41
excelon
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LDS Darth Revan wrote...
You saw the little letters first too?Bill Casey wrote...
So you see the large letters first?
Fascinating...
Hey I have a question: my cousin has Asperger's too and she doesn't really make all that much eye contact. I just got to ask why is it so hard to make eye contact? Everytime I talk to her it seems like she's hiding something or is lying to me. I think it's because of the Asperger's Idk. Just wondering sorry.
Modifié par excelon, 30 octobre 2012 - 08:41 .
#41368
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 08:57
Eryri
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SwobyJ wrote...
inko1nsiderate wrote...
LDS Darth Revan wrote...
You saw the little letters first too?Bill Casey wrote...
So you see the large letters first?
Fascinating...
People see the large letter first? I don't believe it.
I saw the large letter first.
I saw the big letters first too. Actually my brain sort of filled in a letter 'I' that wasn't there, so I initially read it as the word "Fit" for a second.
Modifié par Eryri, 30 octobre 2012 - 09:23 .
#41369
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 09:07
FFZero
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excelon wrote...
LDS Darth Revan wrote...
You saw the little letters first too?Bill Casey wrote...
So you see the large letters first?
Fascinating...
Hey I have a question: my cousin has Asperger's too and she doesn't really make all that much eye contact. I just got to ask why is it so hard to make eye contact? Everytime I talk to her it seems like she's hiding something or is lying to me. I think it's because of the Asperger's Idk. Just wondering sorry.
I know the question is directed at Revan but I believe I know the answer. People with Aspergers syndrome are in general socially awkward and can find certain social behaviours difficult, particularly nonverbal behaviors such as eye contact. A friend of mine has Aspergers syndrome and he’s the same, very rarely makes/keeps eye contact and generally comes off as rather awkward in conversations.
#41370
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 09:12
Hanako Ikezawa
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That is because of her Asperger's, yes. FFZero answered it very nicely.FFZero wrote...
excelon wrote...
LDS Darth Revan wrote...
You saw the little letters first too?Bill Casey wrote...
So you see the large letters first?
Fascinating...
Hey I have a question: my cousin has Asperger's too and she doesn't really make all that much eye contact. I just got to ask why is it so hard to make eye contact? Everytime I talk to her it seems like she's hiding something or is lying to me. I think it's because of the Asperger's Idk. Just wondering sorry.
I know the question is directed at Revan but I believe I know the answer. People with Aspergers syndrome are in general socially awkward and can find certain social behaviours difficult, particularly nonverbal behaviors such as eye contact. A friend of mine has Aspergers syndrome and he’s the same, very rarely makes/keeps eye contact and generally comes off as rather awkward in conversations.
Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 30 octobre 2012 - 09:20 .
#41371
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 09:26
demersel
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I saw the little letters first. Does it mean that there is something wrong with me?
#41372
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 09:27
BleedingUranium
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demersel wrote...
I saw the little letters first. Does it mean that there is something wrong with me?
Lol no, see my post after that.
#41373
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 09:29
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
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I just noticed that there are some interesting 'achievements' that might be worth noting for IT purposes if you look under the 'achievements' tab in the MP. (go to profile>games>click on Mass Effect 3) which gives you all your MP info.
If you click on the achievements tab, at the very bottom there are locked achievements, apparently 57 of them. I have done the Eden Prime one so I guess this may be intended to unlock with the next DLC which is OMEGA and perhaps other ones. What is interesting is that some of them may not pertain to anything currently in ME3. Ones that really stand out to me are:
- investigate a sinister conspiracy (does not fit any current DLC as far as I know)
- learn more about prothean empire (From Ashes DLC?)
- rescue a civilian from reaper forces (Leviathan - rescuing ann bryson)
- uncover an ancient secret (leviathan/ Is leviathan an ancient secret? This is one I'm not sure about...)
- use clues to pinpoint the exact location of an objective (Leviathan had the clues and search part)
Granted, I haven't played the game in full since downloading the the maps so some of these might change if I were to play the game but they are listed under locked so I'm not sure if they will or if they are connected to Omega DLC and unlock when you get it and play it. I'm just wondering about them and if anyone has unlocked any of them yet. Also, I'm wondering about everyone's take on what they represent.
Thoughts?
If you click on the achievements tab, at the very bottom there are locked achievements, apparently 57 of them. I have done the Eden Prime one so I guess this may be intended to unlock with the next DLC which is OMEGA and perhaps other ones. What is interesting is that some of them may not pertain to anything currently in ME3. Ones that really stand out to me are:
- investigate a sinister conspiracy (does not fit any current DLC as far as I know)
- learn more about prothean empire (From Ashes DLC?)
- rescue a civilian from reaper forces (Leviathan - rescuing ann bryson)
- uncover an ancient secret (leviathan/ Is leviathan an ancient secret? This is one I'm not sure about...)
- use clues to pinpoint the exact location of an objective (Leviathan had the clues and search part)
Granted, I haven't played the game in full since downloading the the maps so some of these might change if I were to play the game but they are listed under locked so I'm not sure if they will or if they are connected to Omega DLC and unlock when you get it and play it. I'm just wondering about them and if anyone has unlocked any of them yet. Also, I'm wondering about everyone's take on what they represent.
Thoughts?
Modifié par starlitegirlx, 30 octobre 2012 - 09:34 .
#41374
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 09:29
excelon
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FFZero wrote...
excelon wrote...
LDS Darth Revan wrote...
You saw the little letters first too?Bill Casey wrote...
So you see the large letters first?
Fascinating...
Hey I have a question: my cousin has Asperger's too and she doesn't really make all that much eye contact. I just got to ask why is it so hard to make eye contact? Everytime I talk to her it seems like she's hiding something or is lying to me. I think it's because of the Asperger's Idk. Just wondering sorry.
I know the question is directed at Revan but I believe I know the answer. People with Aspergers syndrome are in general socially awkward and can find certain social behaviours difficult, particularly nonverbal behaviors such as eye contact. A friend of mine has Aspergers syndrome and he’s the same, very rarely makes/keeps eye contact and generally comes off as rather awkward in conversations.
KK thanks I also notice she makes wierd faces like one second she'll be staring wide eyed in the distance then all of a sudden jolt back to reality it's kind of funny lol. Anways I think it's very unique and it's what makes her, her.
#41375
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 30 octobre 2012 - 09:30
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oops
Modifié par starlitegirlx, 30 octobre 2012 - 09:30 .
