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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#41576
Guest_starlitegirlx_*

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spotlessvoid wrote...

So starlite and I were playing MP last night and the guy we were playing with was thoughtful, intelligent and seemed like a really nice person. He said he chose synthesis every play through. He seemed pretty unaware though of the foreshadowing and thematic elements despite seeming quite astute. Which got me thinking.
We really need to present our case (DD's quotes are a fantastic start) for this separately than IT. Don't get me wrong, as Simon and Doomsday pointed out to me months ago, the themes and actual hallucination are the bedrock of IT. But the themes stand on their own as nearly irrefutable. I think people would be more receptive to the thematic aspect if we also presented it independent of IT as reference for others


I'm beginning to think behind the preference could be a strong need for a utopian kind of existence. I forget what Epyon said as to why he liked it or if he said anything, but from him I realized that a lot of the control/synthesis likers just want an ending that they enjoy and find something in that to them is good. They might see unity in synthesis rather than what we see. Or they might see some sort of really idealistic evolution. I've always loved Data on Star Trek - TNG, so if that were very prevalent in my mind at the time I made the choice, I would be thinking about how things go awry with his twin who has emotions and how emotions can be a huge source of destruction. I might be thinking no more disease. Friendly Reapers working in harmony and doing good in the galaxy. Maybe thinking of legion and the primes that choose to stand with organics despite that organics tried to annhiliate them. If we were to ignore the reasons why we loathe synthesis, we would see the presentation of synthesis makes it very alluring but only if you are ignoring the down side of it.

To us synthesis is insane or horrific,, but perhaps we are just as guilty of close mindedness by not looking at the reasoning as to why people choose it. To some, there's a psychological connection to it and a reasoning that just skips over or doesn't even acknowledge Saren as an example or the loss of all organic life. They aren't thinking of that side of the coin which is where we are focused. They are thinking of how it could be beneficial without seeing the downside. This is actually quite interesting because it's what people do everyday in different kinds of decision making. Seeing one side only. Not analyzing the pros and cons. And back to indoctriation with this line of thinking - indoctrination tends to present things in the best possible light so you will take that side. It also plays on your fears and uses them as a back up reason as to why the indoctrianted choice or belief is going to avoid all those things you fear or don't like or want. I can think of dozens of commercials that use these tactics just to get you to buy a product. And that's just to buy a product as opposed to the myriad of much more important decisions you make in life.

Perhaps it is equally about the psychological processes that cause one to stand behind a choice as it is a lack of ability to see or understand the symbolism and other evidence IN GAME.

Modifié par starlitegirlx, 30 octobre 2012 - 08:25 .


#41577
Jusseb

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Well guys it's almost November and then, before you know it, Omega stands before our doorsteps.

I'm expecting much, maybe to much. But i can't wait.

#41578
Eryri

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Davik Kang wrote...

I missed the comment - lucky for me I guess.  

And I know lots of people want the IT reveal - and you don't need to be unsophisticated to want that (I know you were joking, but still, I'm not saying I've got better taste or something).  


No, sorry Davik, the snarky comment was just the first one you quoted. It wasn't the one directed towards you. I just thought better of adding to the "us vs control and synthesis supporters" hostility of which I am sometimes guilty. Sorry for the confusion. 

Modifié par Eryri, 30 octobre 2012 - 08:55 .


#41579
Big_Boss9

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In completely unrelated news, Disney is acquiring Lucasfilm and planning to release Star Wars: Episode 7 in 2015. :blink:

#41580
KitaShepard

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 I am so glad a discussion about the IT still persists to this day. I was a late bloomer to being exposed to the ending of ME3 so I thought I might be going through it all by myself. I have been enjoying reading everyone input and brilliant ideas! 

I figured you guys have evolved way past this point, but I'm sorry, I still cannot get past how crazy, drug inducing, weird some of the 'symbols' are after Shepard gets hit with the laser.
  • 2D piles of ME1 Kaiden/Ashley themed armor with shaved heads,
  • TIM suddenly having the power to control the movement of another persons body who, Anderson, is so obviously not indoctrinated because he's fighting back, and
  • Shepard suddenly having the wound Anderson recieved when he got shot! 
Those are just the big ones among the bunch of weird things going on. ( Oh!, just beat the game to see the EC for my Shepard, Harbinger totally says something as he's shooting Shepard with the beam! I wont for sure say it's 'Serve Us" but it sure as hell sounds like it.) 

I wish so badly that they'd just have a damn Q&A to answer some fo these questions about the crazy 'props' they put in if it doesn't have to do with IT.

#41581
spotlessvoid

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starlitegirl....

I see what you're doing, but having a good personal motive for liking something doesn't make it right. Synthesis, if one values freedom of choice in the individual, is wrong. That singular reason is the inescapable truth of the horror that is synthesis. The annihilation of the very existence of organic life is a close second.

#41582
Ginissss

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star wars 7 very excited 2015 thats avengers justice league and now this damn thats awesome. Am i one of the only ones that loved the prequels and thought revenge of the sith was the best one?

#41583
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Ginissss wrote...

star wars 7 very excited 2015 thats avengers justice league and now this damn thats awesome. Am i one of the only ones that loved the prequels and thought revenge of the sith was the best one?


I liked Revenge of the Sith and I dont hold any paticular dislike towards the prequels, just not as good as the Original for me.

But Disney in charge of ep VII makes me very, very nervous.

#41584
Dwailing

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Ginissss wrote...

star wars 7 very excited 2015 thats avengers justice league and now this damn thats awesome. Am i one of the only ones that loved the prequels and thought revenge of the sith was the best one?


I liked Revenge of the Sith and I dont hold any paticular dislike towards the prequels, just not as good as the Original for me.

But Disney in charge of ep VII makes me very, very nervous.


Disney being in charge of Episode VII doesn't concern me.  They own Marvel, and the Avengers was fine (Or so I've heard, I still need to see it.).

#41585
Ginissss

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Dwailing wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Ginissss wrote...

star wars 7 very excited 2015 thats avengers justice league and now this damn thats awesome. Am i one of the only ones that loved the prequels and thought revenge of the sith was the best one?


I liked Revenge of the Sith and I dont hold any paticular dislike towards the prequels, just not as good as the Original for me.

But Disney in charge of ep VII makes me very, very nervous.


Disney being in charge of Episode VII doesn't concern me.  They own Marvel, and the Avengers was fine (Or so I've heard, I still need to see it.).

dwailing i was just about to type that lol and avengers was the best superhero movie besides the nolan batmans i think you would like it

#41586
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Dwailing wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Ginissss wrote...

star wars 7 very excited 2015 thats avengers justice league and now this damn thats awesome. Am i one of the only ones that loved the prequels and thought revenge of the sith was the best one?


I liked Revenge of the Sith and I dont hold any paticular dislike towards the prequels, just not as good as the Original for me.

But Disney in charge of ep VII makes me very, very nervous.


Disney being in charge of Episode VII doesn't concern me.  They own Marvel, and the Avengers was fine (Or so I've heard, I still need to see it.).


True enough, but still...ah I just hope they out some competent people on making this.

#41587
BleedingUranium

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Ginissss wrote...

star wars 7 very excited 2015 thats avengers justice league and now this damn thats awesome. Am i one of the only ones that loved the prequels and thought revenge of the sith was the best one?


I liked Revenge of the Sith and I dont hold any paticular dislike towards the prequels, just not as good as the Original for me.

But Disney in charge of ep VII makes me very, very nervous.


Disney being in charge of Episode VII doesn't concern me.  They own Marvel, and the Avengers was fine (Or so I've heard, I still need to see it.).


True enough, but still...ah I just hope they out some competent people on making this.


The Avengers was amazing! I've always loved stories that revolve around a team, one of the reasons I love Mass Effect. Disney also did the Pirates Of The Caribbean series, and others that I didn't expect the Disney label to be on.

TL;DR: Star Wars VII will not be like The Lion King.

#41588
Hanako Ikezawa

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BleedingUranium wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Ginissss wrote...

star wars 7 very excited 2015 thats avengers justice league and now this damn thats awesome. Am i one of the only ones that loved the prequels and thought revenge of the sith was the best one?


I liked Revenge of the Sith and I dont hold any paticular dislike towards the prequels, just not as good as the Original for me.

But Disney in charge of ep VII makes me very, very nervous.


Disney being in charge of Episode VII doesn't concern me.  They own Marvel, and the Avengers was fine (Or so I've heard, I still need to see it.).


True enough, but still...ah I just hope they out some competent people on making this.


The Avengers was amazing! I've always loved stories that revolve around a team, one of the reasons I love Mass Effect. Disney also did the Pirates Of The Caribbean series, and others that I didn't expect the Disney label to be on.

TL;DR: Star Wars VII will not be like The Lion King.

This is great news. I'm curious where they'll go with it. Grand Admiral Thrawn, perhaps? Or the Yuuzhan Vong? So many possibilities, I can't wait.Posted Image

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 30 octobre 2012 - 09:37 .


#41589
estebanus

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w-w-wait... Star Wars: Episode VII?! Is this legit?

#41590
masster blaster

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masster blaster wrote...

You know looking at the Conduit on Earth something just hit me. The
three large structures out side of the beam, look like Reaper Capital
ships. It's a trap. You see when the Shepard,Anderson,Coats, and your
two squad mates are stub baling around when the transportation they are in
get's taken out. That's where it starts.The Hallucination/ IT start.

The
screen goes pitch black right, yet Harbinger just randomly drops from
the sky and is guarding the beam. Harbinger is in Shepard mind right
now, and Harbinger is shooting Shepard's willpower in his/her mind. The
soldiers are Shepard's minor willpower, and your squad mates are the
core. If you notice when they get hurt, Shepard panics because
Harbinger struck a nerve of Shepard's willpower.

Hence your guns
are gone because your mind is forgetting that your fighting to get to the
beam. Now if you have low ems your Shepard's willpower is weak, and
Harbinger doesn't care if he breaks Shepard at all. He may get mad in
refuse but he doesn't give a care about Shepard's willpower squad mates.


Now
when Shepard get's knocked out. He/she actually lost 1/2 of his/her
willpower. Hence Shepard is messed up. The soldiers you see lying dead
is Shepard's willpower gone. The conduit is the gate way to Shepard
mind. Also when you see Harbinger leave, he actually is getting ready to
fully enter Shepard's mind for real.

Now as Shepard get's up he is fighting the already Indoctrinated part of his/her mind. The three Husk, and Marauder.

After
Shepard wins, Shepard opens the gate way to part of his mind. His/her memory's. When you arrive on the Citadel and see the dead body's, this is
the corrupted part of Shepard's mind, and all the body's are Shepard's
willpower. Everything you see looks so familiar to you because Harbinger
created all of this for Shepard.

Now when you find Anderson, here is the moment of truth.
Anderson
is Shepard's Last line of deference. TIM is the already corrupted part of
Shepard. Now when all is done, you make peace with your self Anderson.
He can't go on but he is always with Shepard.

Yet when Anderson
dies Shepard will power breaks, and starts to bleed out. Okay when
Shepard opens the Citadel he is opening his/her mind for the Reapers.
The crucible is the Reapers mind on Shepard. The Citadel is Shepard's
brain. Now this is where Harbinger comes in again. After readying and
preparing for everything Shepard will ask, he takes the form of a child.

Now
when Shepard picks Destroy, his willpower comes back. Every shot he/she
takes a part of him/her comes back. The gun is Shepard's willpower, and
it's Destroying the Reapers hold on Shepard.

That's why the brat
goes bye bye because it leaves/ is forced out of Shepard mind. Now as we
see everyone fighting we began to see Shepard's mind fighting the good
fight. Yet when we get to the two soldiers.

The person on the
ground is Shepard, and the guy that is helping the soldier up is us.
That picture with Shepard, and the other person reaching down to help
Shepard makes sense.

That is why if you have low ems your
Shepard's symbolic helmet is shown. Yes it's in high ems, or is it. I
mean for Destroy. Anyways if you pick Control the Reaper gain a huge
foothold on Shepard. The people/ Shepard's willpower is not effected,
yet it is.

When the soldiers get overrun by husk in Control, the
wave passes over them, and the Reaper troops stop attack. That's
because the Reapers don't need to continue to Indoctrinated Shepard
because they have him.

Now in Synthesis Shepard is giving up the fight/surrenders to the Reapers. Also soldiers are loosing, and know one is cheering.

Now
the galaxy is Shepard's body, and the relays are Shepard's lymphatic
system, or lyimdic system. Destroy kicks the Reapers out of his/her
head. Control it does, but the Reaper secretly have Shepard under their
thumb. Synthesis Shepard is forever theirs.

And last the
Normandy/ the crew is Shepard's last uninfected part of his/her mind.
Hence they are running from the Indoctrination beam in Synthesis, and
Control.

Yet for Destroy they are running because of what the
Catalyst said about it, and if your ems isn't high enough to get the
breath scene, well...the fight was to much and Shepard died.


Modifié par masster blaster, 30 octobre 2012 - 10:21 .


#41591
401 Kill

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estebanus wrote...

w-w-wait... Star Wars: Episode VII?! Is this legit?

Yes.

Shocking isn't it?:o

Modifié par 401 Kill, 30 octobre 2012 - 10:17 .


#41592
masster blaster

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401 Kill wrote...

estebanus wrote...

w-w-wait... Star Wars: Episode VII?! Is this legit?

Yes.

Shocking isn't it?:o


Nooooooooooooooooooooo!:blink: Why did it have to be Disney
to do Star Wars:crying:

#41593
401 Kill

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masster blaster wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

estebanus wrote..
w-w-wait... Star Wars: Episode VII?! Is this legit?

Yes.

Shocking isn't it?:o


Nooooooooooooooooooooo!:blink: Why did it have to be Disney
to do Star Wars:crying:

They have many great movies. I would like to see how this turns out, though I must admit, I hope they don't overdue the series.

#41594
estebanus

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401 Kill wrote...

estebanus wrote...

w-w-wait... Star Wars: Episode VII?! Is this legit?

Yes.

Shocking isn't it?:o

*Ultimate nerdgasm*

Holy crap, this is awesome!

#41595
401 Kill

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Omega is less than a month away! I think I am waaaay too much exited for it... But it will be great! Cerberus motives will be revealed/elaborated on! Maybe even the Crucible! I hope there will be plenty of content to discuss.

N7 day is also around the corner!

#41596
Restrider

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starlitegirlx wrote...
I'm beginning to think behind the preference could be a strong need for a utopian kind of existence. I forget what Epyon said as to why he liked it or if he said anything, but from him I realized that a lot of the control/synthesis likers just want an ending that they enjoy and find something in that to them is good. They might see unity in synthesis rather than what we see. Or they might see some sort of really idealistic evolution. I've always loved Data on Star Trek - TNG, so if that were very prevalent in my mind at the time I made the choice, I would be thinking about how things go awry with his twin who has emotions and how emotions can be a huge source of destruction. I might be thinking no more disease. Friendly Reapers working in harmony and doing good in the galaxy. Maybe thinking of legion and the primes that choose to stand with organics despite that organics tried to annhiliate them. If we were to ignore the reasons why we loathe synthesis, we would see the presentation of synthesis makes it very alluring but only if you are ignoring the down side of it.

To us synthesis is insane or horrific,, but perhaps we are just as guilty of close mindedness by not looking at the reasoning as to why people choose it. To some, there's a psychological connection to it and a reasoning that just skips over or doesn't even acknowledge Saren as an example or the loss of all organic life. They aren't thinking of that side of the coin which is where we are focused. They are thinking of how it could be beneficial without seeing the downside. This is actually quite interesting because it's what people do everyday in different kinds of decision making. Seeing one side only. Not analyzing the pros and cons. And back to indoctriation with this line of thinking - indoctrination tends to present things in the best possible light so you will take that side. It also plays on your fears and uses them as a back up reason as to why the indoctrianted choice or belief is going to avoid all those things you fear or don't like or want. I can think of dozens of commercials that use these tactics just to get you to buy a product. And that's just to buy a product as opposed to the myriad of much more important decisions you make in life.

Perhaps it is equally about the psychological processes that cause one to stand behind a choice as it is a lack of ability to see or understand the symbolism and other evidence IN GAME.


Well said, sir.
The concept of Synthesis (ignoring the way it happens in the endings) itself is not bad and not good. I would see it as an addition of organic life with synthetic components to the point were a true union happens. I think that it won't be too unlikely that it will happen some time in the future. In that, I even share the opinion of the Guardian that it may be inevitable in the long run.

Now, what are the downsides of Synthesis in ME3?
First of all, it requires our death and it is presented by an entity that is - for a fact - aligned to the Reapers, who are known for their twisted understanding of Synthesis.
Secondly, we force it on everyone without their consent. You may say the same about Control and Destroy, but in Control (if it were really happening as described in a literal POV) we only enslave the Reapers and could eventually help undo some of the wrongs that were committed in the war. Destroy would wipe out - eventually - the Geth and EDI, who both showed more than once that they are willing to risk non-functionality to end the war.

What I've listed above are counter arguments for the Synthesis offered by the Guardian where you do not necessarily have to assume some kind of IT. That's also why Synthesis is the least liked ending of all (there were a few polls in the BSN about that).

Long story short: The concept of Synthesis itself may not be bad nor good, but considering the circumstances of Synthesis in the ending of ME3 it is bad for several reasons.

#41597
AresKeith

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But.... Its Disney

#41598
Restrider

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Big_Boss9 wrote...

In completely unrelated news, Disney is acquiring Lucasfilm and planning to release Star Wars: Episode 7 in 2015. :blink:

What the...?
You serious?

#41599
Restrider

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KitaShepard wrote...

 I am so glad a discussion about the IT still persists to this day. I was a late bloomer to being exposed to the ending of ME3 so I thought I might be going through it all by myself. I have been enjoying reading everyone input and brilliant ideas! 

I figured you guys have evolved way past this point, but I'm sorry, I still cannot get past how crazy, drug inducing, weird some of the 'symbols' are after Shepard gets hit with the laser.

  • 2D piles of ME1 Kaiden/Ashley themed armor with shaved heads,
  • TIM suddenly having the power to control the movement of another persons body who, Anderson, is so obviously not indoctrinated because he's fighting back, and
  • Shepard suddenly having the wound Anderson recieved when he got shot! 
Those are just the big ones among the bunch of weird things going on. ( Oh!, just beat the game to see the EC for my Shepard, Harbinger totally says something as he's shooting Shepard with the beam! I wont for sure say it's 'Serve Us" but it sure as hell sounds like it.) 

I wish so badly that they'd just have a damn Q&A to answer some fo these questions about the crazy 'props' they put in if it doesn't have to do with IT.

If you want a - kind of - brief overview that supports the idea of IT, then check out the "IT's Top Ten"-list in my signature.
Oh, and welcome in the thread. Always good to have new faces around. No offense to the old faces...

#41600
MaximizedAction

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masster blaster wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

estebanus wrote...

w-w-wait... Star Wars: Episode VII?! Is this legit?

Yes.

Shocking isn't it?:o


Nooooooooooooooooooooo!:blink: Why did it have to be Disney
to do Star Wars:crying:


Hey, they might do something genuinly cool with it..like Tron Legacy (and I don't find the prequel scripts were that much better).

edit: nooo, top of page and off-topic. :whistle:

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 30 octobre 2012 - 10:40 .