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[401 Kill]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
Did I ever say I was solely drawin inspiration from Bioware? Matter of fact my favorite series of all time is the Legend of Zelda series and that is not what you would call a story heavy series (though it has its moments).

But fact is that Bioware has created some of the most memorable characters I have experienced in my considerable amount of gaming and I still remember some of their great plot twists, like the Revan reveal with a smile.
I would be a fool not to learn from what was good, just as I should learn from what is bad.
At this moment if IT is false then ME3 is indeed probably the worst ending ever, but if IT is true Bioware has instead pulled of a piece of storytelling impossible in any other media by directly fooling the player into going against values, themes and ideals established over dozens of hours of gaming.
That is something to consider.

And Bioware has done this in most of there games already. How could all of these clues throughout the series amount to nothing?

And Bioware stated that the while the ending was being designed, they had indoctrination in mind, but scrapped the mechanic of the player losing control of Shepard. How could Bioware have never, at least think, about indoctrination as a part of the ending.

It doesn't add up to me. IT does.

Modifié par 401 Kill, 01 novembre 2012 - 10:17 .

[Hrothdane]

Lazengan

if I judged the Theory by it's own merits, it could be used to explain everything from the entire mass effect series starting from when he first meets Sovereign.

"k lul everything from here is just a dream"

and there is no way I could be disproved at all under the mechanics of indoctrination

it's a stupid line of thinking

Slippery slope and Strawman. Nobody is trying to claim that anything before The Beam Run is a hallucination, and the evidence does not support any hallucinations beyond the child on Earth, so extending the hallucination as far back as you suggest could not reasonably happen. You have not established a causal link between accepting that the ending was a hallucination and assuming everything was, but are claiming a link anyways. Textbook example of slippery slope.

[demersel]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
What did i just watch? Whatever it was, it made me laugh.

An illustrative video to Literal VS It debate. 
Made by our own IT member, as far as I know (or at least first found by him)

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lazengan wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Oh God, don't draw any inspiration from Bioware if you want to be a game designer

you are going to be a GAME DESIGNER, not a film director wannabe

At this moment if IT is false then ME3 is indeed probably the worst ending ever, but if IT is true Bioware has instead pulled of a piece of storytelling impossible in any other media by directly fooling the player into going against values, themes and ideals established over dozens of hours of gaming.

That is something to consider.

But they aren't legendary artists whose intention was to pull that off, you just want to believe that 

And you know that from what?

Facts are actually against you as in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark Bioware did pull of a sequence very similar to IT. Essentially you come face to face with a Mindflayer Elder Brain and the screen fades to black.

Your character then seems to awaken in a forest, the characters mentor standing efore him. The mentor explains that it is all over, that you have won and that there is a banquet in your honor and that they are only waiting for you. Should you choose to go with the mentor the screen fades to black and the credits roll, simple as that.

But challenge the mentor, remain steadfast in your belief that something is not right and ultimately you break free from the clutches of the Elder Brains illusion and is able to continue.

Or what about the Revan reveal. Not a midn**** per see, but it has long been harrolded as one of greatests twists of gaming.

So why couldnt they ull this of, why could they not take a concept they explore frequently and take it to the next level?

[Restrider]

Dwailing wrote...

Well, I see estebanus is in a bad mood. I understand your frustration, but still. Anyway, besides IT causing global warming, cancer, and kitten dinners, what else is new?

Edit: Additionally, @the troll, estebanus may not have been telling you to kill yourself. There is at least one other way I can think of to remove one's self from the gene pool.

OMG-- that's even worse.

[Baihu1983]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Baihu:

Some suggest "serve us." I think it's listed as indecipherable Reaper language

That noise is in Leviathan too

Now that you say that i agree does sound like that.

[Davik Kang]

[quote]estebanus wrote...
I'm glad someone else agrees with me that if literal, Control is still a horrible idea. Thats the exact thing I'm worried about with control in the literal endings.
[/quote]Yup. Control poses too big a risk for me. No one should have total and absolute power over the galaxy, least of all an A.I that's only based on a real human being. [/quote]
Pretty sure most people pick Destroy for this reason.

[Lazengan]

byne wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

if I judged the Theory by it's own merits, it could be used to explain everything from the entire mass effect series starting from when he first meets Sovereign.

"k lul everything from here is just a dream"

and there is no way I could be disproved at all under the mechanics of indoctrination

it's a stupid line of thinking

Except none of the known signs of indoctrination start appearing until ME3.

Though since you apparently think my line of thinking is stupid, I really dont see a point in continuing this discussion.

It couldnt be that we just interpreted something differently than you, clearly we're all using IT as a coping mechanism because we cant face reality.

There is nothing to interpret.

The endings were explicitly stated 

If IT was indeed intentional, then for what reason? To make future content for Mass effect? Bioware said they are done with the franchise

To continue their vision of "artistic integrity"? HAH what a joke. 

[byne]

Lazengan wrote...

If IT was indeed intentional, then for what reason? To make future content for Mass effect? Bioware said they are done with the franchise

You do realize they're already announced Mass Effect 4, right?

[BatmanTurian]

FFZero wrote...

Okay that new wallpaper aside from being spoilerific also has a few oddities. Garrus for one, the visor and scar are on the wrong side of his face and Wrex’s scars are missing. Do Bioware even check for consistency now...

edit: Also on the drinking topic, I don’t drink alcohol at all, hate the taste of the stuff.

blue and red opposite. Paragon/renegade. Especially noticable with Garrus and Wrex.

[Lazengan]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Oh God, don't draw any inspiration from Bioware if you want to be a game designer

you are going to be a GAME DESIGNER, not a film director wannabe

At this moment if IT is false then ME3 is indeed probably the worst ending ever, but if IT is true Bioware has instead pulled of a piece of storytelling impossible in any other media by directly fooling the player into going against values, themes and ideals established over dozens of hours of gaming.

That is something to consider.

But they aren't legendary artists whose intention was to pull that off, you just want to believe that 

And you know that from what?

Facts are actually against you as in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark Bioware did pull of a sequence very similar to IT. Essentially you come face to face with a Mindflayer Elder Brain and the screen fades to black.

Your character then seems to awaken in a forest, the characters mentor standing efore him. The mentor explains that it is all over, that you have won and that there is a banquet in your honor and that they are only waiting for you. Should you choose to go with the mentor the screen fades to black and the credits roll, simple as that.

But challenge the mentor, remain steadfast in your belief that something is not right and ultimately you break free from the clutches of the Elder Brains illusion and is able to continue.

Or what about the Revan reveal. Not a midn**** per see, but it has long been harrolded as one of greatests twists of gaming.

So why couldnt they ull this of, why could they not take a concept they explore frequently and take it to the next level?

Those were events in-game, intentional by the creators

IT theory is fan speculated and driven

[Hrothdane]

[quote]Davik Kang wrote...

[quote]estebanus wrote...
I'm glad someone else agrees with me that if literal, Control is still a horrible idea. Thats the exact thing I'm worried about with control in the literal endings.
[/quote]Yup. Control poses too big a risk for me. No one should have total and absolute power over the galaxy, least of all an A.I that's only based on a real human being. [/quote]
Pretty sure most people pick Destroy for this reason.
[/quote]

For me, it's all that plus the fact that Shepard just had a conversation with TIM and said that even if control was possible, we aren't ready.

As a writer, I will not be party to inconsistent characterization.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

byne wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

If IT was indeed intentional, then for what reason? To make future content for Mass effect? Bioware said they are done with the franchise

You do realize they're already announced Mass Effect 4, right?

And they never said they were done with the franchise either. In fact they said there was still much to explore within the Mass Effect universe outside Shepards story.

[estebanus]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

And you know that from what?

Facts are actually against you as in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark Bioware did pull of a sequence very similar to IT. Essentially you come face to face with a Mindflayer Elder Brain and the screen fades to black.

Your character then seems to awaken in a forest, the characters mentor standing efore him. The mentor explains that it is all over, that you have won and that there is a banquet in your honor and that they are only waiting for you. Should you choose to go with the mentor the screen fades to black and the credits roll, simple as that.

But challenge the mentor, remain steadfast in your belief that something is not right and ultimately you break free from the clutches of the Elder Brains illusion and is able to continue.

That is wrong. You get a game-over screen if you choose to follow him, not the credits.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

demersel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
What did i just watch? Whatever it was, it made me laugh.

An illustrative video to Literal VS It debate. 
Made by our own IT member, as far as I know (or at least first found by him)

I assume that Vreenak is IT while Sisko is the literalists.?

[demersel]

The thing is... even if Literal - Destroy is STILL the best choice.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lazengan wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Oh God, don't draw any inspiration from Bioware if you want to be a game designer

you are going to be a GAME DESIGNER, not a film director wannabe

At this moment if IT is false then ME3 is indeed probably the worst ending ever, but if IT is true Bioware has instead pulled of a piece of storytelling impossible in any other media by directly fooling the player into going against values, themes and ideals established over dozens of hours of gaming.

That is something to consider.

But they aren't legendary artists whose intention was to pull that off, you just want to believe that 

And you know that from what?

Facts are actually against you as in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark Bioware did pull of a sequence very similar to IT. Essentially you come face to face with a Mindflayer Elder Brain and the screen fades to black.

Your character then seems to awaken in a forest, the characters mentor standing efore him. The mentor explains that it is all over, that you have won and that there is a banquet in your honor and that they are only waiting for you. Should you choose to go with the mentor the screen fades to black and the credits roll, simple as that.

But challenge the mentor, remain steadfast in your belief that something is not right and ultimately you break free from the clutches of the Elder Brains illusion and is able to continue.

Or what about the Revan reveal. Not a midn**** per see, but it has long been harrolded as one of greatests twists of gaming.

So why couldnt they ull this of, why could they not take a concept they explore frequently and take it to the next level?

Those were events in-game, intentional by the creators

IT theory is fan speculated and driven

IT builds exclusively upon in game events from throughout all 3 games using the lore and themes as its building blocks. Every piece of evidence and the enormous pile gathered is taken directly from the game itself. Like how Shepard experiences just about every single known symptom of Indoctrination throughout ME3.

[Lazengan]

byne wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

If IT was indeed intentional, then for what reason? To make future content for Mass effect? Bioware said they are done with the franchise

You do realize they're already announced Mass Effect 4, right?

damn didnt see that

soooo what. The IT theory is to leave you all speculating until the next release?

If Bioware plays on with the IT theory in ME4, it would not be an intentional goal 10 years in the making.

You cannot seriously think they had planned this all along since the begining, or even at the begining of mass effect 3 development

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

estebanus wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

And you know that from what?

Facts are actually against you as in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark Bioware did pull of a sequence very similar to IT. Essentially you come face to face with a Mindflayer Elder Brain and the screen fades to black.

Your character then seems to awaken in a forest, the characters mentor standing efore him. The mentor explains that it is all over, that you have won and that there is a banquet in your honor and that they are only waiting for you. Should you choose to go with the mentor the screen fades to black and the credits roll, simple as that.

But challenge the mentor, remain steadfast in your belief that something is not right and ultimately you break free from the clutches of the Elder Brains illusion and is able to continue.

That is wrong. You get a game-over screen if you choose to follow him, not the credits.

Oh I heard it was credits, oh well still dosent change the meaning of the scene,

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Lazengan wrote...

byne wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

If IT was indeed intentional, then for what reason? To make future content for Mass effect? Bioware said they are done with the franchise

You do realize they're already announced Mass Effect 4, right?

damn didnt see that

soooo what. The IT theory is to leave you all speculating until the next release?

If Bioware plays on with the IT theory in ME4, it would not be an intentional goal 10 years in the making.

You cannot seriously think they had planned this all along since the begining, or even at the begining of mass effect 3 development

Considering how well the pieces fit together, yes thaat is exactly what we can believe.

[401 Kill]

"Struggle if you wish Shepard. Your Mind will be mine."

[demersel]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

You cannot seriously think they had planned this all along since the begining, or even at the begining of mass effect 3 development

Considering how well the pieces fit together, yes thaat is exactly what we can believe.

+1. You don't make things like that in fiction by accident. 

[masster blaster]

Hanar

Control Shepard: Eternal. Infinite. Immortal.
Sovereign: We are eternal.
Sovereign: We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite.

Control Shepard: The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.
Sovereign: My kind transcends your very understanding.

Control Shepard: Through his death I was created. Through my birth, his thoughts are freed.
Harbinger (ME2 cut dialogue): You must die, so that we may live.
Harbinger (ME2 cut dialogue): This vision is your future. You fight your own rebirth.

Control Shepard: The man I was knew that he could only achieve this by becoming something greater.
Harbinger: You have the attention of those infinitely your greater.

TIM:They are just trying to Control US. Think about it. If they wanted all organic life Destroyed, they could do it...

TIM: I know them Shepard. I know how they think."

Shepard: The Reapers have it right. Your Indoctrinated.Your doing just what they want.

TIM: "And I can say the same to you. Wasting your time, on a war that can not be won."

Shepard " At LEAST I am fighting."

TIM: Never question my ability to fight. I've been fighting the Reapers longer than you can imagine."

TIM: Shepard there are choices coming that you're not equipped to make."

major foreshadowing, and Equipped to make, but what does he mean equipped to make?

Shepard says:At least I'll be making them as a human being, your just some Reaper puppet."

TIM:You wouldn't listen to me"

TIM: Are YOU going to Control the Reapers."
That's right.He tells Shepard are you going to Control the Reapers.

TIM: I am the Pinnacle of our species

Harbinger "we are the principle of Evolution."

Shepard: " You start being selfish, dreaming about power, and we will all pay the price." That was to TIM at the end of ME2

Saren:" .....We Organics are driven by
emotion instead of logic, and we will fight even though we can not win,
but if we work with the Reapers. Make our self useful. Think how many
lives can be spared.

Shepard:You are afraid Sovereign is Controlling you. You
are afraid he is Controlling your thoughts.

Saren:" I've studied the
affect of Indoctrination. The more Control Sovereign exerts, The less
capable the subject becomes......Sovereign needs me to find the Conduit.
my mind is still my own for now.The transformation between ally to servant can be unsettling. I will not let that happen to me"

Shepard:Sovereign is manipulating you, and you don"t even now it.

Saren: " NO Sovereign needs me. If I find the Conduit
I HAVE BEEN PROMISED TO
BE FREE FROM THE INEVITABLE.THIS IS MY ONLY HOPE"

Catalyst says the cycle will end in Synthesis, and the Reapers will stop. if taken literaly.

Saren: " My
way is the ONLY WAY any of us will survive. I am forging an alliance
between us and the Reapers between ORGANICS AN MACHINES, and in doing so
I WILL SAVE more LIVES than ever existed.

EDI: If the Normandy were captured, my fate would be similar to the
indoctrinated. My code would be rewritten. I would become loyal to the
Reapers. I would rather become non-functional than help them.
Shepard: We won't let that happen to you, EDI.

Um Synthesis anyone.

EDI:
You may have no choice. If you perish first, I want you to know I will
never be a part of the Reaper forces. The Reapers must be defeated. Not
because they threaten death, but because the threat of death makes us
die inside. It is the right of sapients to live freely and securely.
That is worth non-functionality.

Modifié par masster blaster, 01 novembre 2012 - 10:43 .

[Andromidius]

Lazengan wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

IT theory sucks

Explain why, without resorting to whether or not it's Bioware's intent or what the ramifications are/could be, but on it's own as a literary interpretation.

It's a coping mechanism 

Incorrect.  Hating Bioware is a coping mechanism.  Saying its bad writing is a copying mechanism.  Having a go at people who aren't angry at Bioware and calling them names is a copying mechanism.

Sorry, you were saying?  Oh yeah.  You're wrong.

[Lazengan]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Oh God, don't draw any inspiration from Bioware if you want to be a game designer

you are going to be a GAME DESIGNER, not a film director wannabe

At this moment if IT is false then ME3 is indeed probably the worst ending ever, but if IT is true Bioware has instead pulled of a piece of storytelling impossible in any other media by directly fooling the player into going against values, themes and ideals established over dozens of hours of gaming.

That is something to consider.

But they aren't legendary artists whose intention was to pull that off, you just want to believe that 

And you know that from what?

Facts are actually against you as in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark Bioware did pull of a sequence very similar to IT. Essentially you come face to face with a Mindflayer Elder Brain and the screen fades to black.

Your character then seems to awaken in a forest, the characters mentor standing efore him. The mentor explains that it is all over, that you have won and that there is a banquet in your honor and that they are only waiting for you. Should you choose to go with the mentor the screen fades to black and the credits roll, simple as that.

But challenge the mentor, remain steadfast in your belief that something is not right and ultimately you break free from the clutches of the Elder Brains illusion and is able to continue.

Or what about the Revan reveal. Not a midn**** per see, but it has long been harrolded as one of greatests twists of gaming.

So why couldnt they ull this of, why could they not take a concept they explore frequently and take it to the next level?

Those were events in-game, intentional by the creators

IT theory is fan speculated and driven

IT builds exclusively upon in game events from throughout all 3 games using the lore and themes as its building blocks. Every piece of evidence and the enormous pile gathered is taken directly from the game itself. Like how Shepard experiences just about every single known symptom of Indoctrination throughout ME3.

Yes

and everything that happened in the titanic led up to the final event, in which Rose "dreams" of the titanic sinking, and she continues dreaming until she is old

BUT THEN SHE WAKES UP AS her 18 year old self, the titanic arrives to New York, and she lives with jack happily ever after. 

THE PROOF IS EVERYWHERE, THE SHIP ISNT REAL, the WATER's REFLECTION is POOR, PEOPLE LOOK LIKE ILLUSIONS hngggggggg-

^ 

does this sound like an intentional ploy by James Cameron or a bad fanfic written by someone who wanted Jack to live


The indoctrination theory may make sense in context, but For Bioware to pull something legendary where it begins to break fourth wall, is impossible in their current state. They are not those kind of writers and never have been.

When I see IT theorists begin to nitpick small things like reflections and apperances.... 

Look a Reaper is crashing into another reaper but nothing is happening This is an ILLUSION, Shepard is being INDOCTRINATED