80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

estebanus wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

estebanus wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also Doomsday for the list of IT quotes.

" yes people will die, but we will fight your regaurdless. We will fight, we will sacrifice and we will find another way."

That has nothing to do with the IT! If anything, it merely supports destroy!

Quite incorrect, that can easily be used to support IT.

Bulls*t! Just because it supports destroy doesn't mean it supports the IT!

You are slowly turning into the thread's personal troll, you know that? Calm the hell down.

Even though the quote does not outright support IT, we are collecting quotes that support destroy. That said, quotes from people other than Shepard hold more weight, IMO, because Shepard is also the one who is wondering if the Illusive Man is right, at some point. 

Idd say quotes from Shepard himself before ME3 are more valuable as it shows a shift in character, a doubt or thought clearly not there before going from a sentence like that. Where is that determination he showed facing Harbinger (and just about any other person allied to the Reapers) when he is facing the Catalyst? That is an interesting thought which supports IT.

[CmdrShep80]

JMDekker2 wrote...

I agree with rifneno on this one. Garrus is the ultimate renegade, with just the right amount of paragon mixed in. Pretty much used him as a guide for most of the smaller decisions in the game.
"At least we killed Lieutenant-Bastard Kai Leng, I just hope we get to do the same for his general. "

huh, strange how BioWare got the paragon/renagade colors mixed up...on wait...where else have we seen that happen?

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 02 novembre 2012 - 02:59 .

[demersel]

Can't start origin at all, was wandering if i'm the only one with this problem.

[CmdrShep80]

a curious thought. Of the squadmates in the pic who are the renegades and who are the paragons? Btw any reason they didn't include Morinth or did I miss something?

[CmdrShep80]

demersel wrote...

Can't start origin at all, was wandering if i'm the only one with this problem.

unrelated- I can't either because I'm not home 

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

estebanus wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

estebanus wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Also Doomsday for the list of IT quotes.

" yes people will die, but we will fight your regaurdless. We will fight, we will sacrifice and we will find another way."

That has nothing to do with the IT! If anything, it merely supports destroy!

Quite incorrect, that can easily be used to support IT.

Bulls*t! Just because it supports destroy doesn't mean it supports the IT!

You are slowly turning into the thread's personal troll, you know that? Calm the hell down.

Even though the quote does not outright support IT, we are collecting quotes that support destroy. That said, quotes from people other than Shepard hold more weight, IMO, because Shepard is also the one who is wondering if the Illusive Man is right, at some point.

I cannot see the point in collecting these quotes. They do nothing but serve your satisfaction of "I made the right choice" and it doesn't matter one bit if IT or literal. I also cannot see how that makes estebanus a troll.

I disagree. IT is entirely based on in-game lore. This lore is derived in large part from the things the characters say. Some of the most IT-justifying stuff is in these quotes. For example, all the heavy anti-control and anti-synthesis foreshadowing in Project Overlord. It tells you all about how wrong it is, how it is an experiment that should not be tried without more information, and how people with good intentions make bad decisions just to spare lives.

Look at these Project Overlord quotes and tell me it doesn't support IT:

Gavin Archer: This is a hybrid intelligence the likes of which I have never seen. I don't know where the man ends and the machine begins.

Shepard: You should have considered that before you started the experiment.
_______________________________________________

Gavin Archer: I'm begging you, don't do anything rash.

Shepard: Rash? Like forcing your brother into an experiment?

Gavin Archer: I know how this must look, but I never intended any harm to come to him. You must believe me
______________________________________________

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves. When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.
_______________________________________________

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties! We could avoid war with the Geth altogether. That was the plan, anyway.
_______________________________________________

Shepard: What went wrong with the experiment?

Gavin Archer: David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

Especially that underlined line. Replace David with Shepard, and you have a reason why Control is a bad idea. Actually, you don't even have to replace it with Shepard. If interfacing with a simple VI is a bad idea, imagine how bad of an idea interfacing with the Reaper AI is.

In short, Overlord explains how someone engages in a gruesome synthesis, in an attempt to control an entire race, in the hopes of avoiding a destructive war.

The man who wants to control machines ends up being enslaved by the machine. This is exactly what IT thinks happens when you pick synthesis or control.

And then there's all the ending foreshadowing, such as Joker saying "good thing we have an unshackled AI around to tell us what reality is."

These things definitely support IT.

Some of the things Mordin and Legion say are the best arguments you can make against synthesis, and can be used to explain how we only achieve our own future in destroy, and not in the other endings.

The quotes just need to be properly categorized in ending-foreshadowing, destroy-supporting, 4th wall breaking, etc.

------------------------------------------------------------

As for Estebanus, I understand the point he's making, but it's more about the way he does it. IMO he's more and more just becoming a negative presence in this thread.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 02 novembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I disagree. IT is entirely based on in-game lore. This lore is derived in large part from the things the characters say.

Yes but that doesn't automatically equate to destroy = IT.
Also it doesn't have to be IT for me saying Synthesis is a bad choice. You're mixing up to completely different concepts here. IT is about indoctrination, hence the name, and not about justifying destroy in any case.

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

As for Estebanus, I understand the point he's making, but it's more about the way he does it. IMO he's more and more just becoming a negative presence in this thread.

For saying what you're doing is stupid, which it is, while not even wording it as harsh as I just did? Nice double standards you've going on here.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 02 novembre 2012 - 03:40 .

[Davik Kang]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
I cannot see the point in collecting these quotes. They do nothing but serve your satisfaction of "I made the right choice" and it doesn't matter one bit if IT or literal. I also cannot see how that makes estebanus a troll.

Some of the things Mordin and Legion say are the best arguments you can make against synthesis, and can be used to explain how we only achieve our own future in destroy, and not in the other endings.

The quotes just need to be properly categorized in ending-foreshadowing, destroy-supporting, 4th wall breaking, etc.

------------------------------------------------------------

As for Estebanus, I understand the point he's making, but it's more about the way he does it. IMO he's more and more just becoming a negative presence in this thread.

MegumiAzusa is right on this one imo.  IT is about the ending being a dream and Shepard waking up on Earth.  Compiling lists of quotes which support Destroy, while wilfully ignoring anything that could support the contrary, does nothing other than show that you're only willing to listen to one side of the argument,  Trying to silence Estabanus just furthers the same agenda.  Neither has anything to do with proving IT.  

I read every page in this thread and sometimes it can be great.  But collections of quotes and pictures of people with green or blue eyes seem to be for no purpose other than waving in the faces of people who disagree with you.  It does seem kind of self-serving, and doesn't acknowledge the fact that the basis of IT comes from in-game events suggesting the ending was a dream.  In fact I think this kind of stuff harms IT, cos it makes it look like you're just grasping at anything that makes you think you're right and others are wrong.

[Argolas]

demersel wrote...

Can't start origin at all, was wandering if i'm the only one with this problem.

I actually could not go online a few moments ago, but now it works again.

About Destroy quotes: Why not

If we destroy the reapers, this ends today.

Shepard says this only a few minutes before the final decision.

Just as weird as

You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use.
=>
So The Illusive Man was right after all...

[MegumiAzusa]

Argolas wrote...

demersel wrote...

Can't start origin at all, was wandering if i'm the only one with this problem.

I actually could not go online a few moments ago, but now it works again.

About Destroy quotes: Why not

If we destroy the reapers, this ends today.

Shepard says this only a few minutes before the final decision.

Just as weird as

You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use.
=>
So The Illusive Man was right after all...

The difference is here that it doesn't only support destroy but shows the difference on how Shep is influenced. Random quotes from other people don't show anything of Sheps psyche but purely what that person is thinking.

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I disagree. IT is entirely based on in-game lore. This lore is derived in large part from the things the characters say.

Yes but that doesn't automatically equate to destroy = IT.
Also it doesn't have to be IT for me saying Synthesis is a bad choice. You're mixing up to completely different concepts here. IT is about indoctrination, hence the name, and not about justifying destroy in any case.

You misunderstand. I don't even think destroy = IT.

All your friends and allies supporting destroy and only villains supporting control/synthesis is just one part of IT. When I played the ending the first time, the reason that it made me think it was indoctrination was because TIM advocated control and Saren advocated synthesis, and all my friends had told me to give the Reapers no quarter, no compromise. So, you're being persuaded to think like the indoctrinated do.

So there you go.

Like I said, all that stuff needs to be categorized. I'm not mixing up anything. Different things can support different aspects of IT in different ways.

When Restrider compiled the IT 'evidence', I realized when going over the evidence, that the reason we believe any of that evidence to be meaningful, is because of the things the characters say.

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

As for Estebanus, I understand the point he's making, but it's more about the way he does it. IMO he's more and more just becoming a negative presence in this thread.

For saying what you're doing is stupid, which it is, while not even wording it as harsh as I just did? Nice double standards you've going on here.

I'm not sure I'm following. Nobody said what I did was stupid. We may have some kind of misunderstanding going on here.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 02 novembre 2012 - 03:49 .

[Hrothdane]

The point of the quotes and such is to help underscore WHY the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard and illustrate how players are supposed to know which choice is correct. One of the arguments against IT is that the player has no way of knowing which choice is correct, so we are collecting evidence that it IS clear.

The final choice is a final exam boss, except that it test knowledge of lore instead of game mechanics.

[Argolas]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Argolas wrote...

demersel wrote...

Can't start origin at all, was wandering if i'm the only one with this problem.

I actually could not go online a few moments ago, but now it works again.

About Destroy quotes: Why not

If we destroy the reapers, this ends today.

Shepard says this only a few minutes before the final decision.

Just as weird as

You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use.
=>
So The Illusive Man was right after all...

The difference is here that it doesn't only support destroy but shows the difference on how Shep is influenced. Random quotes from other people don't show anything of Sheps psyche but purely what that person is thinking.

Yes, I was hinting at that with the smiley at the end

EC made it a bit less clear, but the Shepard up there is not the Shepard talking to Illusive Man a few minutes ago. Regardless of Paragon or Renegade, Shepard ALWAYS supports Destroy- until he/she meets reaper kid.

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

When Restrider compiled the IT 'evidence', I realized when going over the evidence, that the reason we believe any of that evidence to be meaningful, is because of the things the characters say.

Speak for yourself here please, there is lots of stuff that is meaningful and relevant without any character ever commenting about. It's a reinforcement but not 'the reason'.

[MegumiAzusa]

Hrothdane wrote...

The point of the quotes and such is to help underscore WHY the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard and illustrate how players are supposed to know which choice is correct. One of the arguments against IT is that the player has no way of knowing which choice is correct, so we are collecting evidence that it IS clear.

The final choice is a final exam boss, except that it test knowledge of lore instead of game mechanics.

If it's literal there is no right choice, only a choices that are supported by different groups of people. That is their point. "Proving" IT by showing which group supports which doesn't help one bit. The only thing you accomplish is to show your bias to destroy by any means.
You first have to establish that it's truly an indoctrination process, which is not based on the choice, but the change in character.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Davik Kang wrote...

MegumiAzusa is right on this one imo.  IT is about the ending being a dream and Shepard waking up on Earth.  Compiling lists of quotes which support Destroy, while wilfully ignoring anything that could support the contrary, does nothing other than show that you're only willing to listen to one side of the argument,  Trying to silence Estabanus just furthers the same agenda.  Neither has anything to do with proving IT.

You misunderstand. A lot of things.

1. I am not silencing Estebanus, I just disapprove of him getting constantly all worked up about things that Masster Blaster says. I don't mind him saying he thinks the quote doesn't support IT, I might even agree with it. I just don't like how he goes about saying it.

Don't pretend to know my intentions, because you don't.

2. I am not willfully ignoring anything, I am one of the first people to point out weak points that are being brought up in favour of IT, and I am always looking for things that seem to contradict it. Like I did recently by bringing up Legion using the Reaper code. (Which was ignored by everyone)

Stop accusing me of things I don't even do. You're so self-righteous, it's not even funny.

3. You misunderstand. The only reason I include destroy supporting quotes is because two of the ending choices are only advocated by indoctrinated villains and the third is the one advocated by all my friends and allies. That's what made me think it was indoctrination when I first played the ending, and it was the same for a lot of others here.

I'm not trying to say what's right and what is wrong, I'm trying to use in-game lore to demonstrate why IT interprets things the way it does.

4. You have made several of these rants in this thread, and every time I make an effort to explain to you why we say or do these things, you ignore it. It's like you don't even check the thread to see if anyone responded to what you said. I've done it several times now, but you'll come on and make the same complaint over and over as if it never happened. I can only guess you just don't read my (and others') replies.

Good grief.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:06 .

[Restrider]

I can understand it, when people complain about random walls of quotes that seem unrelated. But since a lot of people claim that IT is fanfic and not based on ingame events and that it isn't foreshadowed, I cannot understand how a well categorized archive of ingamge quotes can harm this thread?
Since DD even outsourced his archive into a thread in the IT group, you cannot say that he is spamming this thread with rather unrelated quotes.
Furthermore he has more than once explained that he is not going to list each quote with "This proves IT!", but he is going to thoroughly examine the quotes and catalog them (and I would say you should also include Synthesis and Control supporting quotes, if they exist).

Long story short: I don't really get the negativity DD is getting for his undertaking. Especially when it seems that his biggest critics didn't even fully understand what he wants to do (as stated above, not "THIS PROVES IT!" archive).

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

When Restrider compiled the IT 'evidence', I realized when going over the evidence, that the reason we believe any of that evidence to be meaningful, is because of the things the characters say.

Speak for yourself here please, there is lots of stuff that is meaningful and relevant without any character ever commenting about. It's a reinforcement but not 'the reason'.

I didn't mean to speak for everybody, and I guess 'reason' is a poor choice of words. I completely agree with what you say. You just misunderstand my intentions.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Restrider wrote...

I can understand it, when people complain about random walls of quotes that seem unrelated. But since a lot of people claim that IT is fanfic and not based on ingame events and that it isn't foreshadowed, I cannot understand how a well categorized archive of ingamge quotes can harm this thread?
Since DD even outsourced his archive into a thread in the IT group, you cannot say that he is spamming this thread with rather unrelated quotes.
Furthermore he has more than once explained that he is not going to list each quote with "This proves IT!", but he is going to thoroughly examine the quotes and catalog them (and I would say you should also include Synthesis and Control supporting quotes, if they exist).

Long story short: I don't really get the negativity DD is getting for his undertaking. Especially when it seems that his biggest critics didn't even fully understand what he wants to do (as stated above, not "THIS PROVES IT!" archive).

Thanks Restrider. At least someone is getting it.

[MegumiAzusa]

Restrider wrote...

[...]But since a lot of people claim that IT is fanfic and not based on ingame events and that it isn't foreshadowed, I cannot understand how a well categorized archive of ingamge quotes can harm this thread?
[...]Furthermore he has more than once explained that he is not going to list each quote with "This proves IT!",[...]

Then at least half of his list doesn't do anything good to his goals, which again is stupid.

In ME1 Liara comments about how marvelous it is how technology and organic stuff is combined in the Citadel. Pro Synthesis, always getting ignored.
I rest my case.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:11 .

[Restrider]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Then at least half of his list doesn't do anything good to his goals, which again is stupid.

Well, usually you collect data and then work on them to get to a useful result.

[MegumiAzusa]

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Then at least half of his list doesn't do anything good to his goals, which again is stupid.

Well, usually you collect data and then work on them to get to a useful result.

Well usually you try to filter meaningful data before you work with them. And quotes simply supporting destroy don't do anything meaningful in this context.

[Eryri]

Restrider wrote...

snip... and I would say you should also include Synthesis and Control supporting quotes, if they exist.

That's a sensible idea, although I genuinely can't think of many off the top of my head. If we can do a systematic tally of all the pro Destroy, Control and Synthesis quotes in the game - we might get a fairer idea of which choice the writers were favouring, if any.

The only character I can remember supporting synthesis in ME3, was that great intellectual giant and philosopher-king; Kai Leng. 

Modifié par Eryri, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:15 .

[spotlessvoid]

Some of you are so ridiculous with your look at me I'm so ****ing paragon routine. Some of you try so damned hard to show off your moral superiority that you allow yourselves to get trolled repeatedly, somehow thinking that because you're polite that you aren't feeding in. You people are getting straight owned and you can't even see it. Stop telling others to grow up and look in the mirror.

[MegumiAzusa]

Eryri wrote...

Restrider wrote...

snip... and I would say you should also include Synthesis and Control supporting quotes, if they exist.

That's a sensible idea, although I genuinely can't think of many off the top of my head. If we can do a systematic tally of all the pro Destroy, Control and Synthesis quotes in the game - we might get a fairer idea of which choice the writers were favouring, if any.

The only character I can remember supporting synthesis in ME3, was that great intellectual giant and philosopher-king; Kai Leng. 

Again, also from the top of my head.

Also remember how Mordin comments about technology stagnating art? It's the complete contradiction to this statement.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:18 .