80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Argolas]

Eryri wrote...

Restrider wrote...

snip... and I would say you should also include Synthesis and Control supporting quotes, if they exist.

That's a sensible idea, although I genuinely can't think of many off the top of my head. If we can do a systematic tally of all the pro Destroy, Control and Synthesis quotes in the game - we might get a fairer idea of which choice the writers were favouring, if any.

The only character I remember supporting synthesis in ME3 was that great intellectual giant and philosopher-king Kai Leng. 

Counter Destroy quotes are interesting as well, there are a few of them.

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

[...]But since a lot of people claim that IT is fanfic and not based on ingame events and that it isn't foreshadowed, I cannot understand how a well categorized archive of ingamge quotes can harm this thread?
[...]Furthermore he has more than once explained that he is not going to list each quote with "This proves IT!",[...]

Then at least half of his list doesn't do anything good to his goals, which again is stupid.

Good grief, how many times do I have to explain this?

The 'list' isn't a list yet. I just asked people to submit anything they think is relevant. I've explained several times over that I still need to go over it, see what's relevant and what not, then categorize everything into a more comprehensive whole.

I agree there's a lot of things in the quotes thread that aren't relevant. I realize that . It hasn't been sorted yet. Right now we're still collecting. It's a WIP.

[Humakt83]

Eryri wrote...

Restrider wrote...

snip... and I would say you should also include Synthesis and Control supporting quotes, if they exist.

That's a sensible idea, although I genuinely can't think of many off the top of my head. If we can do a systematic tally of all the pro Destroy, Control and Synthesis quotes in the game - we might get a fairer idea of which choice the writers were favouring, if any.

The only character I can remember supporting synthesis in ME3, was that great intellectual giant and philosopher-king; Kai Leng. 

Saren and TIM have plenty of quotes supporting control and synthesis. Too bad they are antagonists, Reapers' thralls, so anything they say should be of great suspect.

Then there are the Reapers and the Child.

Your friends and allies support destroy, your enemies support control or synthesis.

Modifié par Humakt83, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:21 .

[Restrider]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Then at least half of his list doesn't do anything good to his goals, which again is stupid.

Well, usually you collect data and then work on them to get to a useful result.

Well usually you try to filter meaningful data before you work with them. And quotes simply supporting destroy don't do anything meaningful in this context.

DD is not even at the filtering process, just collecting.
When the cataloging begins, estebanus and you are welcome to sort out all the quotes that appear to be superfluous, but do not try to sabotage DD's efforts and try to look super-smart while nitpicking and questioning everything.

[Restrider]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Some of you are so ridiculous with your look at me I'm so ****ing paragon routine. Some of you try so damned hard to show off your moral superiority that you allow yourselves to get trolled repeatedly, somehow thinking that because you're polite that you aren't feeding in. You people are getting straight owned and you can't even see it. Stop telling others to grow up and look in the mirror.

I usually start to ignore people at some point.
That already happened with a few people in this thread, including Iconoclaste for example, with whom you had your fair share of fun aswell. So don't pretend that you do not get trolled by people.

[MegumiAzusa]

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Then at least half of his list doesn't do anything good to his goals, which again is stupid.

Well, usually you collect data and then work on them to get to a useful result.

Well usually you try to filter meaningful data before you work with them. And quotes simply supporting destroy don't do anything meaningful in this context.

DD is not even at the filtering process, just collecting.
When the cataloging begins, estebanus and you are welcome to sort out all the quotes that appear to be superfluous, but do not try to sabotage DD's efforts and try to look super-smart while nitpicking and questioning everything.

Then I question his methods. That's a seriously bad way to work with a big chunk of data. Again you can just check if data is meaningful when collecting by using certain criteria. You actually already do that by picking specific quotes, but as you can see the criteria used are insufficient.
If you really would want to do it by first collecting then extract the string tables of every ME game and other media and go through it from the top to bottom.

[spotlessvoid]

You missed the entire point. I feed the trolls hand grenades, a lot of people feed em cake for 15+ pages. I know when I'm dealing with a troll. Seems a lot of people here don't. They get all indignant and holier than thou about it too. I'm not justifying myself either.

[Eryri]

Humakt83 wrote...

Saren and TIM have plenty of quotes supporting control and synthesis. Too bad they are antagonists, Reapers' thralls, so anything they say should be of great suspect.

Then there are the Reapers and the Child.

Your friends and allies support destroy, your enemies support control or Synthesis.

Oh I agree, personally. However some people will say that disparaging an idea based on the morality or background of the person espousing it, is an ad Hominem fallacy.

In real life they would be correct. However, this is a work of fiction so I don't believe those rules apply.  Here I think we can judge the writer's position on an issue from who they use as it's spokesperson within the game. 

[MegumiAzusa]

Eryri wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Saren and TIM have plenty of quotes supporting control and synthesis. Too bad they are antagonists, Reapers' thralls, so anything they say should be of great suspect.

Then there are the Reapers and the Child.

Your friends and allies support destroy, your enemies support control or Synthesis.

Oh I agree, personally. However some people will say that disparaging an idea based on the morality or background of the person espousing it, is an ad Hominem fallacy.

In real life they would be correct. However, this is a work of fiction so I don't believe those rules apply.  Here I think we can judge the writer's position on an issue from who they use as it's spokesperson within the game.

Which would result in lots of bland characters. Good characters always have shades on them. That is why Garrus and Wrex are such good characters, they stand for a good cause but don't conform to rules either. The same goes for TIM in ME2 and other media. In Evolution and at the end when he shoots himself even for Saren.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:32 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Then at least half of his list doesn't do anything good to his goals, which again is stupid.

Well, usually you collect data and then work on them to get to a useful result.

Well usually you try to filter meaningful data before you work with them. And quotes simply supporting destroy don't do anything meaningful in this context.

I can't exactly edit out stuff that other people posted now, can I?

I've repeatedly explained from the very beginning how I was going to do it.

And I've already explained how I am not just collecting stuff that supports destroy.

Again: the main reason that made me realize the ending was an indoctrination attempt when I first played the ending was that two of the choices were advocated by indoctrinated villains, and the third was advocated by all my friends and allies. It was the same for at least several others in this thread.

That was all I could go on when I was in the decision chamber. I couldn't exactly make my decision by analyzing the breath scene before I ever saw it, now could I? Or analyzing the infrasound, or what have you.

And no, that doesn't prove IT. But nothing proves IT. Things can only support it at best.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[spotlessvoid]

If you disapprove of how Doomsday is handling it then make your own list. I fully support the effort he's putting in to getting it done.

[Home run MF]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Restrider wrote...

snip... and I would say you should also include Synthesis and Control supporting quotes, if they exist.

That's a sensible idea, although I genuinely can't think of many off the top of my head. If we can do a systematic tally of all the pro Destroy, Control and Synthesis quotes in the game - we might get a fairer idea of which choice the writers were favouring, if any.

The only character I can remember supporting synthesis in ME3, was that great intellectual giant and philosopher-king; Kai Leng. 

Again, also from the top of my head.

Also remember how Mordin comments about technology stagnating art? It's the complete contradiction to this statement.

What Liara is describing is synergy not synthesis.

[Davik Kang]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Don't pretend to know my intentions, because you don't.

Stop accusing me of things I don't even do. You're so self-righteous, it's not even funny.

Right...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
You have made several of these rants in this thread, and every time I make an effort to explain to you why we say or do these things, you ignore it. It's like you don't even check the thread to see if anyone responded to what you said. I've done it several times now, but you'll come on and make the same complaint over and over as if it never happened. I can only guess you just don't read my (and others') replies.

I don't ignore anything.  You're just repeating a point that I made ages ago back at me.  How is this post a "complaint", and how is it something I've stated before?  You don't need pictures of people with green eyes to show why Synthesis is bad.  Furthermore, you didn't actually answer any of the things I said in my post.

We have exaclty the same opinion on the ending, in terms of why we picked destroy.  It doesn't help to repeatedly quote all these things to affirm your own conclusions.  Collecting quotes that show the ending could be a dream is useful for IT.  Collecting quotes from charcaters saying things like "we came here to Destroy the Reapers" isn't.

Tbh calling me self-righteous because I disagree with you about collecting quotes... you wanna get angry, go ahead.   Accusing me of not listening to anybody when I read every single post in this thread... fine.  It seems more likely that you simply don't like me and want to get rid of me because I don't agree with you.  And if that's the general consensus then fine, I'll leave.  No problem.

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Then at least half of his list doesn't do anything good to his goals, which again is stupid.

Well, usually you collect data and then work on them to get to a useful result.

Well usually you try to filter meaningful data before you work with them. And quotes simply supporting destroy don't do anything meaningful in this context.

I can't exactly edit out stuff that other people posted now, can I?

I've repeatedly explained from the very beginning how I was going to do it.

And I've already explained how I am not just collecting stuff that supports destroy.

Again: the main reason that made me realize the ending was an indoctrination attempt when I first played the ending was that two of the choices were advocated by indoctrinated villains, and the third was advocated by all my friends and allies. It was the same for at least several others in this thread.

That was all I could go on when I was in the decision chamber. I
couldn't exactly make my decision by analyzing the breath scene before I
ever saw it, now could I? Or analyzing the infrasound, or what have you.

And no, that doesn't prove IT. But nothing proves IT. Things can only support it at best.

Which is a naive way of doing things, as I said...
Also I can give you an example of how my first time was: I didn't even think about what the others said, okay it was 6am after playing all night, but there were lots of things that seemed strange. And the most glaring things were how the blood covered edges were gone (which has also only be mentioned once, and it was said it might have been removed because it might have interfered with the indoctrination tendrils, notice the "might have"s here) the appearance of TIM, the platform, and especially "So the Illusive Man was right after all". And that is just everything in the last 20 minutes while playing the game for the first time, and doesn't need any other characters commenting on anything.

[Eryri]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Which would result in lots of bland characters. Good characters always have shades on them. That is why Garrus and Wrex are such good characters, they stand for a good cause but don't conform to rules either. The same goes for TIM in ME2 and other media. In Evolution and at the end when he shoots himself even for Saren.

I agree about the shades of grey. Garrus and Wrex are fascinating characters.

On the other hand, Kai Leng doesn't really have any shades. He's a very one-dimensional bad guy. Do you think he might have been written that way on purpose, to make it absolutely clear that he was in the wrong? Or am I giving Bioware too much credit? - even when they make a dumb character they're being clever.

[MegumiAzusa]

Home run MF wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Restrider wrote...

snip... and I would say you should also include Synthesis and Control supporting quotes, if they exist.

That's a sensible idea, although I genuinely can't think of many off the top of my head. If we can do a systematic tally of all the pro Destroy, Control and Synthesis quotes in the game - we might get a fairer idea of which choice the writers were favouring, if any.

The only character I can remember supporting synthesis in ME3, was that great intellectual giant and philosopher-king; Kai Leng. 

Again, also from the top of my head.

Also remember how Mordin comments about technology stagnating art? It's the complete contradiction to this statement.

What Liara is describing is synergy not synthesis.

Which would be the next step if it's an evolving system.

[AresKeith]

Eryri wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Which would result in lots of bland characters. Good characters always have shades on them. That is why Garrus and Wrex are such good characters, they stand for a good cause but don't conform to rules either. The same goes for TIM in ME2 and other media. In Evolution and at the end when he shoots himself even for Saren.

I agree about the shades of grey. Garrus and Wrex are fascinating characters.

On the other hand, Kai Leng doesn't really have any shades. He's a very one-dimensional bad guy. Do you think he might have been written that way on purpose, to make it absolutely clear that he was in the wrong? Or am I giving Bioware too much credit? - even when they make a dumb character they're being clever.

Well I heard Mac Walters wrote Kai Leng in ME3, and Kai Leng from Retribution was a way better villain/ Anti-Shepard

[jojon2se]

spotlessvoid wrote...
...
I feed the trolls hand grenades, a lot of people feed em cake for 15+ pages.
...

Be mindful that handgrenades are just as tasty to a troll, as cake.

[MegumiAzusa]

Eryri wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Which would result in lots of bland characters. Good characters always have shades on them. That is why Garrus and Wrex are such good characters, they stand for a good cause but don't conform to rules either. The same goes for TIM in ME2 and other media. In Evolution and at the end when he shoots himself even for Saren.

I agree about the shades of grey. Garrus and Wrex are fascinating characters.

On the other hand, Kai Leng doesn't really have any shades. He's a very one-dimensional bad guy. Do you think he might have been written that way on purpose, to make it absolutely clear that he was in the wrong? Or am I giving Bioware too much credit? - even when they make a dumb character they're being clever.

Most people say Vega is a bland character because they don't talk much with him after the first two times, still he is one with more shades then for example Tali. I don't see how it wouldn't be on purpose how KL turned out to be.
Though a huge problem with Vega is he doesn't have that many lines, and a good portion is missing because of what I think is a big bug in how the conversations work which they couldn't fix.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 02 novembre 2012 - 04:47 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Then at least half of his list doesn't do anything good to his goals, which again is stupid.

Well, usually you collect data and then work on them to get to a useful result.

Well usually you try to filter meaningful data before you work with them. And quotes simply supporting destroy don't do anything meaningful in this context.

DD is not even at the filtering process, just collecting.
When the cataloging begins, estebanus and you are welcome to sort out all the quotes that appear to be superfluous, but do not try to sabotage DD's efforts and try to look super-smart while nitpicking and questioning everything.

Then I question his methods. That's a seriously bad way to work with a big chunk of data. Again you can just check if data is meaningful when collecting by using certain criteria. You actually already do that by picking specific quotes, but as you can see the criteria used are insufficient.
If you really would want to do it by first collecting then extract the string tables of every ME game and other media and go through it from the top to bottom.

Look, if I had the time or the resources to do such an undertaking, that would be a perfect way of doing it. Thing is, I don't.

I just think there's a wealth of information in the dialogue in the sense of foreshadowing and what not. I think a good collection of in-game quotes would nicely compliment the IT backbone.

Yes, every submission should be held to scrutiny and it will, and yes, we will look at things that contradict it. But it's just a fun community undertaking for now. One that involves everybody who feels like contributing.

I have no ambition to make this my personal glory project. I thought it would make for a nice community effort to involve everybody and see what we can come up with.

I'm sorry you don't like it.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 02 novembre 2012 - 05:17 .

[Humakt83]

Eryri wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Saren and TIM have plenty of quotes supporting control and synthesis. Too bad they are antagonists, Reapers' thralls, so anything they say should be of great suspect.

Then there are the Reapers and the Child.

Your friends and allies support destroy, your enemies support control or Synthesis.

Oh I agree, personally. However some people will say that disparaging an idea based on the morality or background of the person espousing it, is an ad Hominem fallacy.

In real life they would be correct. However, this is a work of fiction so I don't believe those rules apply.  Here I think we can judge the writer's position on an issue from who they use as it's spokesperson within the game. 

You should note that it is not really the "synthesis" and "control" that should be the main concern, but the way those goals are pursued: the Reapers. Or to be more precise, the Reaper technology.

That is the main reason why both Synthesis and Control at the end should be avoided. They are represented by a being who even identifies itself as the commander of the Reapers. In both cases, the Reapers will remain in existence.

I shouldn't need to tell anyone why siding with the Reapers is a terrible idea.

Destroy, is IMO, the only ending where there is even a glimmer of hope.

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Then at least half of his list doesn't do anything good to his goals, which again is stupid.

Well, usually you collect data and then work on them to get to a useful result.

Well usually you try to filter meaningful data before you work with them. And quotes simply supporting destroy don't do anything meaningful in this context.

DD is not even at the filtering process, just collecting.
When the cataloging begins, estebanus and you are welcome to sort out all the quotes that appear to be superfluous, but do not try to sabotage DD's efforts and try to look super-smart while nitpicking and questioning everything.

Then I question his methods. That's a seriously bad way to work with a big chunk of data. Again you can just check if data is meaningful when collecting by using certain criteria. You actually already do that by picking specific quotes, but as you can see the criteria used are insufficient.
If you really would want to do it by first collecting then extract the string tables of every ME game and other media and go through it from the top to bottom.

Look, if I had the time or the resources to do such an undertaking, that would be a perfect way of doing it. Thing is, I don't.

I just think there's a wealth of information in the dialogue in the sense of foreshadowing and what not. I think a good collection of in-game quotes would nicely compliment the IT backbone.

Yes, every submission should be held to scrutiny and it will, and yes, we will look at things that contradict it. But it's just a fun community undertaking for now. One that involves everybody who feels like contributing.

I have no ambition to make this my personal glory project. I thought it
would make for a nice community effort to involve everybody and see what
we can come up with.

I'm sorry you don't like it.

I didn't say I don't like it, I don't like the method. I saw more then enough projects that are similar on other communities and they were either never finished or only halfhearted. Also it's one of the things schools teach you how not to do stuff

[Home run MF]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...


Again, also from the top of my head.

Also remember how Mordin comments about technology stagnating art? It's the complete contradiction to this statement.

What Liara is describing is synergy not synthesis.

Which would be the next step if it's an evolving system.

Quite the leap of logic you're making there.

[spotlessvoid]

jojon2se wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...
...
I feed the trolls hand grenades, a lot of people feed em cake for 15+ pages.
...

Be mindful that handgrenades are just as tasty to a troll, as cake.

Again, missing the point. I KNOW! I'm saying I'm not acting like I'm not feedimg them and getting all indignant. And depending on the troll that's not true.

[MegumiAzusa]

Home run MF wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...


Again, also from the top of my head.

Also remember how Mordin comments about technology stagnating art? It's the complete contradiction to this statement.

What Liara is describing is synergy not synthesis.

Which would be the next step if it's an evolving system.

Quite the leap of logic you're making there.

I cannot see how logic is part of it.
It's just the progression
you first have two systems
then have two systems working better together
then you have two systems adding to each other while no system could run by it's own as they are one at that point.

Also depending on which high level abstraction Liara is looking at it it is already synthesis.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 02 novembre 2012 - 05:07 .