80611 réponses à ce sujet

[spotlessvoid]

Nature and Synthetic being in harmony is not the same as them being one.

[jojon2se]

Well, if you willfully engage a troll, then I can't help with either your ulcer or being_a_bit_of_a_troll_yourself.
Point missed, or seen differently?

[masster blaster]

Look can you all stop this. Look I thought it would help, but I guess I was wrong. Dd is actualy doing a great job. Banshee, Blurr,Bill,and a few others would disprove of your actions on DD. I have been making a list of people that hate IT, and will show you all sometime later this or next week, so we can counter these arguments.

So of them are right most are wrong, so be ready.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Davik Kang wrote...


We have exaclty the same opinion on the ending, in terms of why we picked destroy.  It doesn't help to repeatedly quote all these things to affirm your own conclusions.  Collecting quotes that show the ending could be a dream is useful for IT.  Collecting quotes from charcaters saying things like "we came here to Destroy the Reapers" isn't.

In my opinion, it is. Because -for me- (and at least several others in this thread), what made me realize I was being indoctrinated, was the fact that two of the choices were advocated by indoctrinated villains, and the third by my friends and allies.

It's not just about a moral compass. It's about being persuaded to the enemy's side.

It doesnt prove IT, it supports it in the sense that it illustrates why many of us think we're being persuaded to think like the Reapers.

You can disagree, fine. I'm just saying that for me (and others) it was the reason I didn't trust the "catalyst".

Davik Kang wrote...

Tbh calling me self-righteous because I disagree with you about collecting quotes... you wanna get angry, go ahead.   Accusing me of not listening to anybody when I read every single post in this thread... fine.  It seems more likely that you simply don't like me and want to get rid of me because I don't agree with you.  And if that's the general consensus then fine, I'll leave.  No problem.

No, I don't want you gone at all. It's just happened several times that you misunderstood me (and others), and when I make an effort to explain something, it's like you don't read it, because next time you'll post the exact same thing, as if you didn't even read my/our explanations.

I just happened to notice several times that you made some observations about people in this thread, and then you go on to make some sweeping generalizations about IT supporters that do not apply to everyone here.

Sometimes it's like you read something someone posts, and immediately conclude that it's part of 'that IT culture', while you're simply missing context for what they say, or have no idea of people's history in this thread.

To me it is frustrating that you include many of us in your generalizations about IT just because of the behaviour of a few select individuals in this thread.

I'm not mad, I'm just frustrated because it's like it doesn't even matter what I say.

As for posting pictures of people with green eyes, it's just for having a laugh. We have so much srs bsns going on here that we sometimes need to have some fun. Don't take everything too seriously.

What you also need to understand is that back when IT started, we've had to deal with crazy amounts of trolls. Just mindless hate and bashing and people calling us tinfoil crazies for several months straight. You have no idea of the amount of ridicule we've had to endure in the past. I don't personally engage in hostilities against literalists (I always have reasonable debates), but keep that in mind when other people in this thread seem overly defensive when a troll comes around.

It's the haters who created this 'us vs. them' thing, not us. We always just stuck around here to speculate. I despise it just as much as you do, but it seems there's nothing we can do about it except ignoring it.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 02 novembre 2012 - 05:15 .

[spotlessvoid]

jojon2se wrote...

Well, if you willfully engage a troll, then I can't help with either your ulcer or being_a_bit_of_a_troll_yourself.
Point missed, or seen differently?

I don't start flat out ripping into them until I see the thread getting derailed for page after page by them. If people weren't so busy trying to make nice with people obviously trolling then I would be more than happy to ignore them. I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is to tell me to grow up and stop feeding them and then proceed to feed them politely for a hours and hours. At least I'm not acting all high and mighty about it.

[MegumiAzusa]

masster blaster wrote...

I have been making a list of people that hate IT

I just haaaave to see that :3

[masster blaster]

Look can you all stop this. Look I thought it would help, but I guess I was wrong. Dd is actualy doing a great job. Banshee, Blurr,Bill,and a few others would disprove of your actions on DD. I have been making a list of people that hate IT, and will show you all sometime later this or next week, so we can counter these arguments.

So of them are right most are wrong, so be ready.

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...


We have exaclty the same opinion on the ending, in terms of why we picked destroy.  It doesn't help to repeatedly quote all these things to affirm your own conclusions.  Collecting quotes that show the ending could be a dream is useful for IT.  Collecting quotes from charcaters saying things like "we came here to Destroy the Reapers" isn't.

In my opinion, it is. Because -for me- (and at least several others in this thread), what made me realize I was being indoctrinated, was the fact that two of the choices were advocated by indoctrinated villains, and the third by my friends and allies.

Which is suggesting that it is really the case, but in another post you say you cannot prove if it's indoctrination or not, which is contradicting itself.

[MegumiAzusa]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

IT supports(more or less solely) the destruction of the Reapers and so does Destroy.
I fail to see why a separation needs to be made when the goals are the same.

If you do the right thing for the wrong reasons your work gets corrupted.

It already happened over and over that people come to "conclusions" that are just [insert bad word here] because they got mixed up with lots of not relevant stuff.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 02 novembre 2012 - 05:23 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Restrider wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Then at least half of his list doesn't do anything good to his goals, which again is stupid.

Well, usually you collect data and then work on them to get to a useful result.

Well usually you try to filter meaningful data before you work with them. And quotes simply supporting destroy don't do anything meaningful in this context.

DD is not even at the filtering process, just collecting.
When the cataloging begins, estebanus and you are welcome to sort out all the quotes that appear to be superfluous, but do not try to sabotage DD's efforts and try to look super-smart while nitpicking and questioning everything.

Then I question his methods. That's a seriously bad way to work with a big chunk of data. Again you can just check if data is meaningful when collecting by using certain criteria. You actually already do that by picking specific quotes, but as you can see the criteria used are insufficient.
If you really would want to do it by first collecting then extract the string tables of every ME game and other media and go through it from the top to bottom.

Look, if I had the time or the resources to do such an undertaking, that would be a perfect way of doing it. Thing is, I don't.

I just think there's a wealth of information in the dialogue in the sense of foreshadowing and what not. I think a good collection of in-game quotes would nicely compliment the IT backbone.

Yes, every submission should be held to scrutiny and it will, and yes, we will look at things that contradict it. But it's just a fun community undertaking for now. One that involves everybody who feels like contributing.

I have no ambition to make this my personal glory project. I thought it
would make for a nice community effort to involve everybody and see what
we can come up with.

I'm sorry you don't like it.

I didn't say I don't like it, I don't like the method. I saw more then enough projects that are similar on other communities and they were either never finished or only halfhearted. Also it's one of the things schools teach you how not to do stuff

Trust me, I realize that very well. As much as I would like this to be a first class science project, I don't have the time to approach it like that. It's a community effort now. At some point we will comb through it, make it into something solid and we will add more and more as we find stuff.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 02 novembre 2012 - 05:21 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...


We have exaclty the same opinion on the ending, in terms of why we picked destroy.  It doesn't help to repeatedly quote all these things to affirm your own conclusions.  Collecting quotes that show the ending could be a dream is useful for IT.  Collecting quotes from charcaters saying things like "we came here to Destroy the Reapers" isn't.

In my opinion, it is. Because -for me- (and at least several others in this thread), what made me realize I was being indoctrinated, was the fact that two of the choices were advocated by indoctrinated villains, and the third by my friends and allies.

Which is suggesting that it is really the case, but in another post you say you cannot prove if it's indoctrination or not, which is contradicting itself.

There is a difference between things being conclusive proof, and things supporting a certain way of thinking. Is it really that hard to see?

Destroy supporting quotes help illustrate IT. They don't prove it. Nothing does. All in all, IT is just a wealth of in-game lore, clues and foreshadowing that seems to indicate a certain intent on the part of the writers. So far, at least.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 02 novembre 2012 - 05:26 .

[Davik Kang]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
No, I don't want you gone at all. It's just happened several times that you misunderstood me (and others), and when I make an effort to explain something, it's like you don't read it, because next time you'll post the exact same thing, as if you didn't even read my/our explanations.

I just happened to notice several times that you made some observations about people in this thread, and then you go on to make some sweeping generalizations about IT supporters that do not apply to everyone here.

Sometimes it's like you read something someone posts, and immediately conclude that it's part of 'that IT culture', while you're simply missing context for what they say, or have no idea of people's history in this thread.

To me it is frustrating that you include many of us in your generalizations about IT just because of the behaviour of a few select individuals in this thread.

I'm not mad, I'm just frustrated because it's like it doesn't even matter what I say.

As for posting pictures of people with green eyes, it's just for having a laugh. We have so much srs bsns going on here that we sometimes need to have some fun. Don't take everything too seriously.

What you also need to understand is that back when IT started, we've had to deal with crazy amounts of trolls. Just mindless hate and bashing and people calling us tinfoil crazies for several months straight. You have no idea of the amount of ridicule we've had to endure in the past. I don't personally engage in hostilities against literalists (I always have reasonable debates), but keep that in mind when other people in this thread seem overly defensive when a troll comes around.

It's the haters who created this 'us vs. them' thing, not us. We always just stuck around here to speculate. I despise it just as much as you do, but it seems there's nothing we can do about it except ignoring it.

Yes.  You're right.  I'm sorry.  Criticising your efforts was completely pointless, and no more contributory to this thread than the average troll post.

Compiling the list of quotes is useful.  Once you filter them, as you already said you will, you'll be able to break them down into useful sub-sections which support various elements of the arguments you're making, in terms of IT, supporting Destroy, and other general logical conclusions which help us understand the game as a whole.

I have no excuse.  I get annoyed when I come to these forums.  Taking it out on members of this thread who aren't being remotely dumb or impolite was a ridiculous thing to do.  It seems I am completely vulnerable to becoming an angry troll without even realising it.

Again, I'm sorry.  Good luck with the project.  Even if different members disagree on its usefulness, it doesn't negatively impact anything said or done by anyone else in this thread, or anywhere else for that matter.  Utimately, you'll have more pools to readily access evidence in promoting IT.  Relative usefulness can and should be discussed at a later time, and different members will have different opinions.  But it's clearly better than the evidence not being collected in the first place.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 02 novembre 2012 - 05:25 .

[smokingotter1]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

snip*

And no, that doesn't prove IT. But nothing proves IT. Things can only support it at best.

Or again to paraphrase Vendetta Indoctrination cannot be observed but it can be inferred. And there is a ton of evidence to suggest a strong inference. Just because the writers don't SPELL it out doesn't mean there isn't a right answer.

I mean if X+3=5... it's not like X can be anything. The writers gave us enough story telling tools for us to make a strong enough case that the ending is indeed indoctrination.

Also if you guys are collecting quotes about destroy this should save you a ton of time.

Edit:

Also another useful thing about the quotes supporting all choices (although 95% probably support destroy) is that they provide a useful point of reference. If the ending is indoctrination and Shepard is being affected than at a certain even he/she becomes an unreliable resource.

The end choice is up to the player to objectively make the decision for Shepard who's character has been compromised. This is the same Shepard that sacrificed a entire Batarian colony just to slow the reapers down. The player (you) are not given a choice. Now tell me again what choice Cmdr Shepard (not you, Shepard) would make?

Modifié par smokingotter1, 02 novembre 2012 - 05:30 .

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Trust me, I realize that very well. As much as I would like this to be a first class science project, I don't have the time to approach it like that. It's a community effort now. At some point we will comb through it, make it into something solid and we will add more and more as we find stuff.

As said, I observed it more then enough times that such projects just fail. There is maybe a 10% chance you succeed in the end and I still wouldn't bet on it to be non sloppy. That's just how such things usually turn out.
As an example look at the choose wisely stuff, nice concept but from the first episode on they promised to deliver new stuff or stuff that is rarely spoken about. After both episodes they said "that stuff comes in the next episode". Not to mention most of the stuff they comment about isn't even complete.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Davik Kang wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
No, I don't want you gone at all. It's just happened several times that you misunderstood me (and others), and when I make an effort to explain something, it's like you don't read it, because next time you'll post the exact same thing, as if you didn't even read my/our explanations.

I just happened to notice several times that you made some observations about people in this thread, and then you go on to make some sweeping generalizations about IT supporters that do not apply to everyone here.

Sometimes it's like you read something someone posts, and immediately conclude that it's part of 'that IT culture', while you're simply missing context for what they say, or have no idea of people's history in this thread.

To me it is frustrating that you include many of us in your generalizations about IT just because of the behaviour of a few select individuals in this thread.

I'm not mad, I'm just frustrated because it's like it doesn't even matter what I say.

As for posting pictures of people with green eyes, it's just for having a laugh. We have so much srs bsns going on here that we sometimes need to have some fun. Don't take everything too seriously.

What you also need to understand is that back when IT started, we've had to deal with crazy amounts of trolls. Just mindless hate and bashing and people calling us tinfoil crazies for several months straight. You have no idea of the amount of ridicule we've had to endure in the past. I don't personally engage in hostilities against literalists (I always have reasonable debates), but keep that in mind when other people in this thread seem overly defensive when a troll comes around.

It's the haters who created this 'us vs. them' thing, not us. We always just stuck around here to speculate. I despise it just as much as you do, but it seems there's nothing we can do about it except ignoring it.

Yes.  You're right.  I'm sorry.  Criticising your efforts was completely pointless, and no more contributory to this thread than the average troll post.

Compiling the list of quotes is useful.  Once you filter them, as you already said you will, you'll be able to break them down into useful sub-sections which support various elements of the arguments you're making, in terms of IT, supporting Destroy, and other general logical conclusions which help us understand the game as a whole.

I have no excuse.  I get annoyed when I come to these forums.  Taking it out on members of this thread who aren't being remotely dumb or impolite was a ridiculous thing to do.  It seems I am completely vulnerable to becoming an angry troll without even realising it.

Again, I'm sorry.  Good luck with the project.  Even if different members disagree on its usefulness, it doesn't negatively impact anything said or done by anyone else in this thread, or anywhere else for that matter.  Utimately, you'll have more pools to readily access evidence in promoting IT.  Relative usefulness can and should be discussed at a later time, and different members will have different opinions.  But it's clearly better than the evidence not being collected in the first place.

It's okay, I understand. I am sorry too for snapping at you like that. I guess we're all only human. It just seemed like everyone was ganging up on me. My apologies.

[Dwailing]

Well, I see things are a bit... heated right now. I find myself sympathizing more with DD on this one. I think the list is a good idea. Would it be nice if it could be done in, shall we say, and more systematic and thorough way? Yes. But does DD have the technology and time to DO it in said way? No.

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...


We have exaclty the same opinion on the ending, in terms of why we picked destroy.  It doesn't help to repeatedly quote all these things to affirm your own conclusions.  Collecting quotes that show the ending could be a dream is useful for IT.  Collecting quotes from charcaters saying things like "we came here to Destroy the Reapers" isn't.

In my opinion, it is. Because -for me- (and at least several others in this thread), what made me realize I was being indoctrinated, was the fact that two of the choices were advocated by indoctrinated villains, and the third by my friends and allies.

Which is suggesting that it is really the case, but in another post you say you cannot prove if it's indoctrination or not, which is contradicting itself.

There is a difference between things being conclusive proof, and things supporting a certain way of thinking. Is it really that hard to see?

Destroy supporting quotes help illustrate IT. They don't prove it. Nothing does. All in all, IT is just a wealth of in-game lore, clues and foreshadowing that seems to indicate a certain intent on the part of the writers. So far, at least.

No they don't illustrate IT. They would only if that very same person later on would tell you "hey actually you should try to control them, why so much hate?".
All these quotes only illustrate one thing: this group of people think the Reapers should be destroyed. There is nothing about indoctrination in there to even remotely "illustrate" it.

[spotlessvoid]

Bethesda...

It's important, not for ITs sake, but because foreshadowing against control and synthesis is relevant to all interpretations. It's as much a part of IT as the hallucination, but it's useful to also present it separately

Doomsday is fully aware of the difference between foreshadowing of the it hallucination and foreshadowing against control and synthesis. I know this for a fact because it's he and Simon Says that made a point to differentiate the two quite a while back. I specifically remember because the three of us got into a lengthy discussion on the difference between the hallucination narrative device and the pro destroy thematic elements.

[MegumiAzusa]

Davik Kang wrote...
But it's clearly better than the evidence not being collected in the first place.

I cannot understand the use of the word "evidence".

[BleedingUranium]

I'll sum this us simply; there are two prerequisites for understanding IT:

-An understanding of the characters, lore, and themes of the Mass Effect Universe.

-A belief that Bioware has good enough writers and story tellers to create something as elaborate and in-depth as IT.


If you don't have the former, you'll never understand what IT is, or why it's important and makes sense. If you don't have the latter, you won't believe IT is what actually happened.

Doomsday is trying to compile a list that helps with the former. If you fully understand those things, the logical place it takes you is that the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate you at the end. So, while the quotes don't directly support IT, they are what makes the universe and themes, and that is the most important supporting aspect of IT.