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[BatmanTurian]

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You know, I hate to get preachy, but honestly we get enough flack from other people outside this thread. We don't need to be attacking each other over things that are minor. If you believe those things are not important and you are in the minority, it's probably better just to say your piece and then let it go.

I support DD and Restrider's efforts, though I don't have much to add. They and others, like Parabolee and Hellishfied, etc. have done a lot to help us sift through and organize data. Instead of arguing over how to do it, we should at least collect the information and then organize it as we see fit. Not doing it at all undermines the purpose of showing that IT has a grounding in the narrative. Also, anything that supports Destroy does support IT. They can be separated, but there is no breath scene and no breaking the process of Indoctrination without High EMS Destroy. So no offense Megumi and Estebanus, but you guys are out of line and just plain wrong. To specify, that statement is not an attack on the two of you, but simply a logical conclusion.

Yes well, I disagree and think that you're wrong. Look, almost all 3 games heavily foreshadow that you have to destroy the reapers, but it was never in any context with indoctrination, as far as I recall. If a quote is there to support the IT then It'd have to be something that can be compared to indoctrination in some way. Shepard saying to Harbinger that they'll fight the reapers till the end does not validate the theory.

I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong. High EMS Destroy is the ending where Shepard wakes up from Starbabby's dream-state formed during the process of indoctrination while Shepard is unconcious. Therefore, anything that supports Destroy is valid for IT. Period. The fact that we have to argue about this astounds me.

[Rifneno]

demersel wrote...

Rifneno - the only difference is that i don't care for the second one's topic at all. And I did know that all the economic "experts" really don't know anything - even south park covered that in the episode Margaritaville.

Jesus, South Park is still on the air?

[BatmanTurian]

Davik Kang wrote...

demersel wrote...
So i read this article in Forbes - it really boggles me, how can such a thing be an actual article in an actual journal, and quite famous one at that.... It really is the level of justifieng rumblings of a BSN user. Like the thing you can read in here in Synthesis thread. Or Refuse support thread.... This is a really depressing thing....

Well here's an opposite view

MyChemicalBromance wrote...
http://badassdigest....-mass-effect-3/

It is pro-Synthesis though, and doesn't mention the indoctrination point.  It is more complimentary of the way ME handles the nihilistic themes of the story.  Still, I like the way he's willing to embrace the work as it is without having to justify it using interpretations of the in-game events.

About the quote collection argument... I'm not the best person to be trying to play peacemaker after my earlier rant... will just say that everybody in here will inevitably disagree on the relative merits/usefulness of any given quote, or any other piece of in-game evidence, with regard to IT... but collecting these things really can only be a productive exercise, and if it is categorised according to what ideas are supported, it will be a pretty useful source for everybody, regardless of what they're trying to provide evidence for...

...in other words, opinions will differ on what is useful, but this doesn't matter... the collection of quotes is an exercise in finding factual data, and not in arguing over its validity... those arguments can come later, at an appropriate time... at this stage the process can only be productive really...

Agreed. Perhaps we disagree on their relevance, but a collection of knowledge is a productive venture that is better than talking about multiplayer, Red vs Blue, and general Literalist shenanigans.

[BansheeOwnage]

BatmanTurian wrote...

I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong. High EMS Destroy is the ending where Shepard wakes up from Starbabby's dream-state formed during the process of indoctrination while Shepard is unconcious. Therefore, anything that supports Destroy is valid for IT. Period. The fact that we have to argue about this astounds me.

The thing is, it doesn't matter anyway, because destroy is the only non-indoctrinated choice before the end anyway. Therefore, supporting destroy supports IT. This particular topic has nothing to do with any hallucination.

But you should both probably disengage before someone dies.

[demersel]

Rifneno wrote..
Jesus, South Park is still on the air?

As a matter of fact - yes, but the episode I was reffering to is from like three or four years ago.

 www.southparkstudios.com/clips/222638/bailout#searchterm=margaritaville

Modifié par demersel, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:35 .

[estebanus]

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You know, I hate to get preachy, but honestly we get enough flack from other people outside this thread. We don't need to be attacking each other over things that are minor. If you believe those things are not important and you are in the minority, it's probably better just to say your piece and then let it go.

I support DD and Restrider's efforts, though I don't have much to add. They and others, like Parabolee and Hellishfied, etc. have done a lot to help us sift through and organize data. Instead of arguing over how to do it, we should at least collect the information and then organize it as we see fit. Not doing it at all undermines the purpose of showing that IT has a grounding in the narrative. Also, anything that supports Destroy does support IT. They can be separated, but there is no breath scene and no breaking the process of Indoctrination without High EMS Destroy. So no offense Megumi and Estebanus, but you guys are out of line and just plain wrong. To specify, that statement is not an attack on the two of you, but simply a logical conclusion.

Yes well, I disagree and think that you're wrong. Look, almost all 3 games heavily foreshadow that you have to destroy the reapers, but it was never in any context with indoctrination, as far as I recall. If a quote is there to support the IT then It'd have to be something that can be compared to indoctrination in some way. Shepard saying to Harbinger that they'll fight the reapers till the end does not validate the theory.

I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong. High EMS Destroy is the ending where Shepard wakes up from Starbabby's dream-state formed during the process of indoctrination while Shepard is unconcious. Therefore, anything that supports Destroy is valid for IT. Period. The fact that we have to argue about this astounds me.

"I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong." Good for you. So apparently, destroy is only valid because it supports the IT.

[BansheeOwnage]

BleedingUranium wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Discuss! (Ny Day Art in case anyone missed it.)

There are a lot of things I don't know what to make of.

TIM is alone but has the Collector Base and Omega.

Saren is alone but has Relays and Citadel (Reapers).

Shepard has 18 people to support him.

Each squadmate pairs up nicely with the one opposite (not the pics), except there's no opposite to Mordin. Also, Garrus and Wrex are Shepard's bros.

Great catch on the opposites. Makes sense now.

[BansheeOwnage]

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[/quote]"I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong." Good for you. So apparently, destroy is only valid because it supports the IT.


[/quote]
When did he say that? I think most people here would say destroy is the best outcome in literal and IT.

[CmdrShep80]

SwobyJ wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

*snips so I can type on my phone better*

happened to me but then I'm a completionist. I will talk to everyone till dialog repeats again. This is the same for NPCs. It's how people can easily miss some of the great conversations in Huerta Memorial among other places

Yeah I'm doing my completionist playthrough (just did the Tuchanka Bomb mission) and I can tell this is gonna take a while

yep. So BioWare says each game is 70+ hours, that's for people who rush and to market a game so it doesn't look like Xenoblade Chronicles (which btw I spent 40 hours on just colony 9 the refugee camp and the start of colony 6 ). When you don't rush you ccan really spend tons of hours on each area. What I did in ME 1 was land on alien planets and look at the landscapes. I enjoyed just spending a few minutes taking in the landscapes. One thing I missed in 2 and 3 was a few more areas we could just "take it all in"

[estebanus]

[quote]BansheeOwnage wrote...

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[/quote]"I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong." Good for you. So apparently, destroy is only valid because it supports the IT.


[/quote]
When did he say that? I think most people here would say destroy is the best outcome in literal and IT.[/quote]

That's exactly what he's implying. All the quotes favouring destroy actually favor the IT, which would mean that without the IT, destroy apparently is invalid.

Modifié par estebanus, 03 novembre 2012 - 12:41 .

[BatmanTurian]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong. High EMS Destroy is the ending where Shepard wakes up from Starbabby's dream-state formed during the process of indoctrination while Shepard is unconcious. Therefore, anything that supports Destroy is valid for IT. Period. The fact that we have to argue about this astounds me.

The thing is, it doesn't matter anyway, because destroy is the only non-indoctrinated choice before the end anyway. Therefore, supporting destroy supports IT. This particular topic has nothing to do with any hallucination.

But you should both probably disengage before someone dies.

And then there's that, yeah. Even in a literal interpretation, the other two choices are Reaper paths.

[401 Kill]

Regaurding that picture, Eyri made a great point that TIM and Saren could be the "devils" on Shepard's shoulder...

[BatmanTurian]

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You know, I hate to get preachy, but honestly we get enough flack from other people outside this thread. We don't need to be attacking each other over things that are minor. If you believe those things are not important and you are in the minority, it's probably better just to say your piece and then let it go.

I support DD and Restrider's efforts, though I don't have much to add. They and others, like Parabolee and Hellishfied, etc. have done a lot to help us sift through and organize data. Instead of arguing over how to do it, we should at least collect the information and then organize it as we see fit. Not doing it at all undermines the purpose of showing that IT has a grounding in the narrative. Also, anything that supports Destroy does support IT. They can be separated, but there is no breath scene and no breaking the process of Indoctrination without High EMS Destroy. So no offense Megumi and Estebanus, but you guys are out of line and just plain wrong. To specify, that statement is not an attack on the two of you, but simply a logical conclusion.

Yes well, I disagree and think that you're wrong. Look, almost all 3 games heavily foreshadow that you have to destroy the reapers, but it was never in any context with indoctrination, as far as I recall. If a quote is there to support the IT then It'd have to be something that can be compared to indoctrination in some way. Shepard saying to Harbinger that they'll fight the reapers till the end does not validate the theory.

I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong. High EMS Destroy is the ending where Shepard wakes up from Starbabby's dream-state formed during the process of indoctrination while Shepard is unconcious. Therefore, anything that supports Destroy is valid for IT. Period. The fact that we have to argue about this astounds me.

"I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong." Good for you. So apparently, destroy is only valid because it supports the IT.

No, it was valid for me before I even discovered IT. It's what Shepard is meant to do, it's what all of his allies want him to do, it's what trillions of lives murdered and harvested demand as justice and karma for taking their lives. The other two choices are the goals of madmen who were clearly pawns of the enemy and therefore goals of the enemy.

[BansheeOwnage]

BatmanTurian wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong. High EMS Destroy is the ending where Shepard wakes up from Starbabby's dream-state formed during the process of indoctrination while Shepard is unconcious. Therefore, anything that supports Destroy is valid for IT. Period. The fact that we have to argue about this astounds me.

The thing is, it doesn't matter anyway, because destroy is the only non-indoctrinated choice before the end anyway. Therefore, supporting destroy supports IT. This particular topic has nothing to do with any hallucination.

But you should both probably disengage before someone dies.

And then there's that, yeah. Even in a literal interpretation, the other two choices are Reaper paths.

Hence the IT-con Deception theory. I actually came up with that theory, but decided not to share it because it doesn't make any sense. Better than the literal version though. My point is: you don't need a hallucination for the indoctrination.

[BansheeOwnage]

401 Kill wrote...

Regaurding that picture, Eyri made a great point that TIM and Saren could be the "devils" on Shepard's shoulder...

That's a good idea.

[BansheeOwnage]

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[quote]BansheeOwnage wrote...

[quote]estebanus wrote...

[/quote]"I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong." Good for you. So apparently, destroy is only valid because it supports the IT.


[/quote]
When did he say that? I think most people here would say destroy is the best outcome in literal and IT.[/quote]

That's exactly what he's implying. All the quotes favouring destroy actually favor the IT, which would mean that without the IT, destroy apparently is invalid.
[/quote]
Saying all the destroy quotes favour IT =/= saying destroy is invalid without IT.

I'm sorry, I just have no idea where you got that from.

[estebanus]

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You know, I hate to get preachy, but honestly we get enough flack from other people outside this thread. We don't need to be attacking each other over things that are minor. If you believe those things are not important and you are in the minority, it's probably better just to say your piece and then let it go.

I support DD and Restrider's efforts, though I don't have much to add. They and others, like Parabolee and Hellishfied, etc. have done a lot to help us sift through and organize data. Instead of arguing over how to do it, we should at least collect the information and then organize it as we see fit. Not doing it at all undermines the purpose of showing that IT has a grounding in the narrative. Also, anything that supports Destroy does support IT. They can be separated, but there is no breath scene and no breaking the process of Indoctrination without High EMS Destroy. So no offense Megumi and Estebanus, but you guys are out of line and just plain wrong. To specify, that statement is not an attack on the two of you, but simply a logical conclusion.

Yes well, I disagree and think that you're wrong. Look, almost all 3 games heavily foreshadow that you have to destroy the reapers, but it was never in any context with indoctrination, as far as I recall. If a quote is there to support the IT then It'd have to be something that can be compared to indoctrination in some way. Shepard saying to Harbinger that they'll fight the reapers till the end does not validate the theory.

I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong. High EMS Destroy is the ending where Shepard wakes up from Starbabby's dream-state formed during the process of indoctrination while Shepard is unconcious. Therefore, anything that supports Destroy is valid for IT. Period. The fact that we have to argue about this astounds me.

"I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong." Good for you. So apparently, destroy is only valid because it supports the IT.

No, it was valid for me before I even discovered IT. It's what Shepard is meant to do, it's what all of his allies want him to do, it's what trillions of lives murdered and harvested demand as justice and karma for taking their lives. The other two choices are the goals of madmen who were clearly pawns of the enemy and therefore goals of the enemy.

Exactly. Meaning that it supports the choice in itself, not a theory revolving about the choice.

[BatmanTurian]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong. High EMS Destroy is the ending where Shepard wakes up from Starbabby's dream-state formed during the process of indoctrination while Shepard is unconcious. Therefore, anything that supports Destroy is valid for IT. Period. The fact that we have to argue about this astounds me.

The thing is, it doesn't matter anyway, because destroy is the only non-indoctrinated choice before the end anyway. Therefore, supporting destroy supports IT. This particular topic has nothing to do with any hallucination.

But you should both probably disengage before someone dies.

And then there's that, yeah. Even in a literal interpretation, the other two choices are Reaper paths.

Hence the IT-con Deception theory. I actually came up with that theory, but decided not to share it because it doesn't make any sense. Better than the literal version though. My point is: you don't need a hallucination for the indoctrination.

Right, but this is the hallucination thread last time I checked.

[BansheeOwnage]

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

No, it was valid for me before I even discovered IT. It's what Shepard is meant to do, it's what all of his allies want him to do, it's what trillions of lives murdered and harvested demand as justice and karma for taking their lives. The other two choices are the goals of madmen who were clearly pawns of the enemy and therefore goals of the enemy.

Exactly. Meaning that it supports the choice in itself, not a theory revolving about the choice.

What? It can do 2 things at once! What the hell Estebanus?  Drink some coffee, or go to bed. You seem tired or something.

[BatmanTurian]

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You know, I hate to get preachy, but honestly we get enough flack from other people outside this thread. We don't need to be attacking each other over things that are minor. If you believe those things are not important and you are in the minority, it's probably better just to say your piece and then let it go.

I support DD and Restrider's efforts, though I don't have much to add. They and others, like Parabolee and Hellishfied, etc. have done a lot to help us sift through and organize data. Instead of arguing over how to do it, we should at least collect the information and then organize it as we see fit. Not doing it at all undermines the purpose of showing that IT has a grounding in the narrative. Also, anything that supports Destroy does support IT. They can be separated, but there is no breath scene and no breaking the process of Indoctrination without High EMS Destroy. So no offense Megumi and Estebanus, but you guys are out of line and just plain wrong. To specify, that statement is not an attack on the two of you, but simply a logical conclusion.

Yes well, I disagree and think that you're wrong. Look, almost all 3 games heavily foreshadow that you have to destroy the reapers, but it was never in any context with indoctrination, as far as I recall. If a quote is there to support the IT then It'd have to be something that can be compared to indoctrination in some way. Shepard saying to Harbinger that they'll fight the reapers till the end does not validate the theory.

I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong. High EMS Destroy is the ending where Shepard wakes up from Starbabby's dream-state formed during the process of indoctrination while Shepard is unconcious. Therefore, anything that supports Destroy is valid for IT. Period. The fact that we have to argue about this astounds me.

"I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong." Good for you. So apparently, destroy is only valid because it supports the IT.

No, it was valid for me before I even discovered IT. It's what Shepard is meant to do, it's what all of his allies want him to do, it's what trillions of lives murdered and harvested demand as justice and karma for taking their lives. The other two choices are the goals of madmen who were clearly pawns of the enemy and therefore goals of the enemy.

Exactly. Meaning that it supports the choice in itself, not a theory revolving about the choice.

no, it supports BOTH.

[BansheeOwnage]

BatmanTurian wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

I don't care that you disagree because you're wrong. High EMS Destroy is the ending where Shepard wakes up from Starbabby's dream-state formed during the process of indoctrination while Shepard is unconcious. Therefore, anything that supports Destroy is valid for IT. Period. The fact that we have to argue about this astounds me.

The thing is, it doesn't matter anyway, because destroy is the only non-indoctrinated choice before the end anyway. Therefore, supporting destroy supports IT. This particular topic has nothing to do with any hallucination.

But you should both probably disengage before someone dies.

And then there's that, yeah. Even in a literal interpretation, the other two choices are Reaper paths.

Hence the IT-con Deception theory. I actually came up with that theory, but decided not to share it because it doesn't make any sense. Better than the literal version though. My point is: you don't need a hallucination for the indoctrination.

Right, but this is the hallucination thread last time I checked.

I know. I'm just saying those are still reaper paths (and indoctrination) if it was literal.

[estebanus]

You know what? Believe whatever the f*ck you want. Let's just agree to disagree.

[BatmanTurian]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

I know. I'm just saying those are still reaper paths (and indoctrination) if it was literal.

gotcha

[BansheeOwnage]

estebanus wrote...

You know what? Believe whatever the f*ck you want. Let's just agree to disagree.

Yeah, that's a good idea, which is why I suggested it earlier.

[BatmanTurian]

estebanus wrote...

You know what? Believe whatever the f*ck you want. Let's just agree to disagree.

Not even sure why we're arguing about it. You've been here the same amount of time I have. What I have said is logical and congruent with IT. You should know this stuff like the back of your hand, and yet you argue against it.