80611 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrShep80]

@megumi- no I think I missed that one. Could you either put the stills in again, message me them, or refer back to the rough page they were on?

[Andromidius]

RaenImrahl wrote...

I've banned @estebanus for five days for a post in this thread suggesting that another user kill themselves. I am surprised how much controversy still surrounds IT, but that's fine... so long as we remain civil in our discourse. Suggesting that someone shoot themselves is not civil discourse.

Fair enough.  But I hope you'll be banning a number of other people for similar actions.

[BleedingUranium]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

IMHO, IT can be separated from the literal outcomes. IT greatly implies that Destroy high EMS is the right way to go, but... ..........it's equally possible that Shepard's brain is just so much mush after any or all of the endings. Indoctrination is a damaging process. If what we see at the end of the game is a massive indoctrinated hallucination, then none of it bodes well for Shepard. Shepard could "survive" in Destroy high EMS but be left comatose.

EDIT: I was going somewhere with this, but I've missed the mark.  By the time I straighten it out in my head, the thread'll probably be well past this post.  Nevertheless...

From an in-universe perspective, sure it's possible. But from a writing ans story telling standpoint, I find that very hard to believe. I expect we'll see this next.

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You know it supports it. Therefore whatever supports destroy supports IT since only High EMS Destroy is the Breath scene.

That one is so easy to counter: if literal Shep cannot awake because he dissolves in both Control and Synthesis. Hence no indoctrination hence your point is invalid.

Yet in literal Destroy he somehow awekens despite extensive blood loss, injury, burns from harbingers beam, being obliterated into dust by an explosion in his face, and further exposure to vacuum, hence the ending being an indoctrination hallucination. )))

Which was not my point at all. I know all these things, but the point was still that these quotes have no merit.
Also since the EC you can see that the place where Shep is is quite heavily shielded. As the major explosion originates from the Crucible and not the Citadel you cannot tell if it's shielded enough for Shep to survive the blast, but you can see the tower is still standing.

[CmdrShep80]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Why doesn't vendetta recognize Javik?

Ah yes, it's not recognizing him but says stuff to him like "you are Prothean" and "your mission is known to me" or something like that. I'm really convinced you did your homework on what you just said.

lol sorry about that. When you're typing on a phone you spend more time fixing autocorrect then doing homework. I suppose I should be asking is what mission Javik is on that Vendetta knows about but we think it is about destroying reapers?

[Andromidius]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You know it supports it. Therefore whatever supports destroy supports IT since only High EMS Destroy is the Breath scene.

That one is so easy to counter: if literal Shep cannot awake because he dissolves in both Control and Synthesis. Hence no indoctrination hence your point is invalid.

That makes no sense.

Shepard shouldn't be alive in ANY of the endings.  Even if Shep survives in only one, that puts everything into doubt.

And thus we look at the one where Shep can survive - Destroy.  Why would that be?  Because its defiance against the Reapers, and thus its the defiance that's somehow keeping Shepard alive.  But why would defiance do that?  If its all a hallucination, and fighting back against it is the only way to break it.

And thus your point is invalid.

[CmdrShep80]

Speaking of my phone I can't wait till tomorrow I'm finally going to be able to do the Halloween challenge and op jackhammer (they were sneaky adding that). I really thought we'd have one mp challenge this weekend but we get 2. Even though its not intended to, I would love to have a pumpkin in my quarters. Maybe under a future patch where we can buy one

[Davik Kang]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

... ..........it's equally possible that Shepard's brain is just so much mush after any or all of the endings. Indoctrination is a damaging process. If what we see at the end of the game is a massive indoctrinated hallucination, then none of it bodes well for Shepard. Shepard could "survive" in Destroy high EMS but be left comatose.

This point gets made a lot but I think it misses the mark.  I've thought about it a lot because it directly affects my own interpretation of the ending.

We are told that thralls subjected to rapid indoctrination suffer fast and irreprable brain damage, but that is contingent on the indoctrination attempt actually suceeding.  Remember that such methods involve more physical manipulation of the brain, and ensuing damage is a natural consequence.

But the attempted indoctrination of Shepard is different in two key respects:  Firstly. that if you choose Destroy at least (and arguably in other circumstances), the attempt has failed.  So Shepard is subjected to an attempt but is not actually indoctrinated.  Secondly, that the realisation of this attempt comes in the form of a conversation with an apparent antagonist, implying that the actual indoctrination, however it is taking place 'in reality', is actually a fairly subtle attempt at manipulation, rather than a bombardment of damaging mind control techniques.  Whether this is a result of the attempt being soft in nature, or more a result of Shepard's realtively high resistance to the technique, doesn't really matter.

So the codex info about short-term indoctrination victims becoming near-brain dead as a result doesn't necessarily apply in Shepard's case, and it is perfectlly possible that she survived such devastating effects without contradicting the game lore.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 03 novembre 2012 - 03:00 .

[demersel]

Megumi, really? The explosion originates from the crucible sure, but after the energy shoot's out of the citadel it's presidium ring gets engulfed in a gian fireball. And shepard is closer to the middle than presidium ring. he's at the bottom of the tower, which is in the very middle of it.

[ZerebusPrime]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

IMHO, IT can be separated from the literal outcomes. IT greatly implies that Destroy high EMS is the right way to go, but... ..........it's equally possible that Shepard's brain is just so much mush after any or all of the endings. Indoctrination is a damaging process. If what we see at the end of the game is a massive indoctrinated hallucination, then none of it bodes well for Shepard. Shepard could "survive" in Destroy high EMS but be left comatose.

EDIT: I was going somewhere with this, but I've missed the mark.  By the time I straighten it out in my head, the thread'll probably be well past this post.  Nevertheless...

I guess what I was trying to say is that your final decision might not actually matter all that much.  To me Indoctrination Theory simply states that Shepard is being indoctrinated across the whole of ME3 (possibly a bit in ME2, as well) and that the ending is at least 60% in his head (legal standard, kind of like how bread can't contain bug parts past a certain percentage of its volume) via hallucination, hypnosis, or both.  Regardless of your choice at the end, if what we see in the ending is an illusion then we don't know what happens to Shepard's physical body (breath scene is good, but his mind could still be so much chopped up spaghetti after the mental confrontation with the childlike embodiment of all Reapers).

That said, I can't support Destroy as the sole right decision anymore because the process of Refusal very much sounds like resisting indoctrination even if we can't get the breath scene that way.  As such, I remain split between Destroy and Refuse.

Control and Synthesis are still crazy, though.

Modifié par ZerebusPrime, 03 novembre 2012 - 03:06 .

[demersel]

Andromidius wrote...

That makes no sense.

Shepard shouldn't be alive in ANY of the endings.  Even if Shep survives in only one, that puts everything into doubt.

And thus we look at the one where Shep can survive - Destroy.  Why would that be?  Because its defiance against the Reapers, and thus its the defiance that's somehow keeping Shepard alive.  But why would defiance do that?  If its all a hallucination, and fighting back against it is the only way to break it.

And thus your point is invalid.

This. Thank you for putting it together that well. 

If literal - Shepard should not survive any of the endings. 

[CmdrShep80]

Andromidius wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You know it supports it. Therefore whatever supports destroy supports IT since only High EMS Destroy is the Breath scene.

That one is so easy to counter: if literal Shep cannot awake because he dissolves in both Control and Synthesis. Hence no indoctrination hence your point is invalid.

That makes no sense.

Shepard shouldn't be alive in ANY of the endings.  Even if Shep survives in only one, that puts everything into doubt.

And thus we look at the one where Shep can survive - Destroy.  Why would that be?  Because its defiance against the Reapers, and thus its the defiance that's somehow keeping Shepard alive.  But why would defiance do that?  If its all a hallucination, and fighting back against it is the only way to break it.

And thus your point is invalid.

I think Shepard can survive in all 3 endings but with a drastically altered change based on Bioware saying save your save games. Bet it'll alter how the next game and/or some future dlc plays out. Oh and thus all your points are valid 

[CmdrShep80]

Oops to add, he survives because I'm on the it was a hallucination sequence versus it really happened sequence

Edit - autocorrect fix lol

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 03 novembre 2012 - 03:01 .

[spotlessvoid]

Andromidius wrote...

RaenImrahl wrote...

I've banned @estebanus for five days for a post in this thread suggesting that another user kill themselves. I am surprised how much controversy still surrounds IT, but that's fine... so long as we remain civil in our discourse. Suggesting that someone shoot themselves is not civil discourse.

Fair enough.  But I hope you'll be banning a number of other people for similar actions.

Things get heated in here, and I'm certainly guilty of being pretty blunt, even vulgar, to blatant trolls. But that one went way too far, and honestly- it makes us all look like crazy people.

[Davik Kang]

demersel wrote...
If literal - Shepard should not survive any of the endings. 

Depends how literal... 

[ZerebusPrime]

Davik Kang wrote...

*snip - long term vs. short term indoctrination codex information noted and acknowledged - snip*

I'd agree that Shepard is experiencing the slow form of indoctrination throughout most of ME3.  However, I disagree that what we see at the end is a result of slow, subtle indoctrination.  I disagree because of the giant bug zapping beam in downtown London and the PDA referencing how people who go to "that place" come back changed.  I firmly believe that Shepard ran straight into a concentrated indoctrination killzone of sorts.

[CmdrShep80]

@spot - you apologize usually right after. Estebanus has been having a few tough days it seemed and sometimes would just keep going and going even if we say stop.

@masster I forgot to thank you for all those quotes some 15 pages back. Helpful to see again

[spotlessvoid]

Davik Kang wrote...

demersel wrote...
If literal - Shepard should not survive any of the endings. 

Depends how literal... 

Most of the people from this thread I've spoken with would be at least ok with a hallucination on the citadel. It has it's plot holes, but anything that puts control and especially synthesis as Reaper traps would be acceptable to me. Far from perfect, but acceptable

[Humakt83]

"Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels."

A good counsel; anyone would be wise to follow it.

Modifié par Humakt83, 03 novembre 2012 - 03:09 .

[demersel]

Davik Kang wrote...

demersel wrote...
If literal - Shepard should not survive any of the endings. 

Depends how literal... 

The literal literal. 

1 - Shepard is in the midlde of huge explosion in space, while being nealry dead already. 
2 - the beam that Shepard activated and that has affected entire galaxy, should have killed shepard, by disabling all of his implants, if we belive what we hear it does. If we don't - than it's not literal anymore. 

[MegumiAzusa]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

@megumi- no I think I missed that one. Could you either put the stills in again, message me them, or refer back to the rough page they were on?

There are 2 sequences repeated over and over and another longer one that combines them and has some other images too. The first sequence is the most interesting:
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/000.jpg
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/001.jpg
then branches into either
http://thundermods.n...E/Seq0/002a.jpg
or
http://thundermods.n...E/Seq0/002b.jpg
then rejoins
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/003.jpg
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/004.jpg
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/005.jpg
branch
http://thundermods.n...E/Seq0/006a.jpg
or
http://thundermods.n...E/Seq0/006b.jpg
rejoins
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/007.jpg
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/008.jpg
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/009.jpg
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/010.jpg
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/011.jpg
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/012.jpg
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/013.jpg
http://thundermods.n...ME/Seq0/014.jpg
branch
http://thundermods.n...E/Seq0/015a.jpg
or
http://thundermods.n...E/Seq0/015b.jpg

The interesting thing here being seeing Javik always followed by a Reaper, really always, and as you can see it also distorts him at one point in the sequence. Even if sometimes the sequence is only a part of the full sequence (there are sometimes 2-3 images only).

[CmdrShep80]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

*snip - long term vs. short term indoctrination codex information noted and acknowledged - snip*

I'd agree that Shepard is experiencing the slow form of indoctrination throughout most of ME3.  However, I disagree that what we see at the end is a result of slow, subtle indoctrination.  I disagree because of the giant bug zapping beam in downtown London and the PDA referencing how people who go to "that place" come back changed.  I firmly believe that Shepard ran straight into a concentrated indoctrination killzone of sorts.

i know we went over this but the Reapers weren't desperate so why push the issue on Shepard?  Maybe they know what the crucible really does (in a literal sense) in a IT sense they needed to find out from Shepard's mind what was being planned so they could stop it. I'm thinking the subvert a high ranking official that could end the resistance ( I won't say war since Reapers think in terms IOC harvests)

[CmdrShep80]

^. IOC=of

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

Megumi, really? The explosion originates from the crucible sure, but after the energy shoot's out of the citadel it's presidium ring gets engulfed in a gian fireball. And shepard is closer to the middle than presidium ring. he's at the bottom of the tower, which is in the very middle of it.

Thus I said you cannot know how shielded the area is. You can only assume if it's enough or not.

[Davik Kang]

ZerebusPrime wrote...
I'd agree that Shepard is experiencing the slow form of indoctrination throughout most of ME3.  However, I disagree that what we see at the end is a result of slow, subtle indoctrination.  I disagree because of the giant bug zapping beam in downtown London and the PDA referencing how people who go to "that place" come back changed.  I firmly believe that Shepard ran straight into a concentrated indoctrination killzone of sorts.

Ah damn I didn't explain my point well enough then.  No no, I'm not claiming that the indoctrination attempt is a slow one.  There are arguments that this is happening throughout ME3 and some are compelling, but that's not what I was getting at.

Imo the final attempt at indoctrinating Shepard IS a short-term, last ditch attempt.  A panic button on the Reapers' part if you like.

I was trying to highlight two things -
1. It failed
2. It didn't have any serious effects during the attempt.

This distinguishes it from the codex description.  To make the discussion easier I'll post it:

"Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable.  Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. "

I highlight 'manipulation' because this is suggestive that the lasting effects of indoctrination could be contingent on the Reaper successfully controlling the thrall.  While mental resistance lasts, the thrall could be able to recover from the indoctrination attempt.  The Codex is not clear as to whether merely the attempt at short-term indoctrination can cause brain damage, or whether such consequences depend on the success of the indoctrination.  

So, though I can't prove that Shepard will remain unaffected (or at least relatively healthy - I'm sure there will be at least some short term side-effects), I can at least demonstrate that it is not certain that Shepard would be rendered mindless by the attempt.

EDIT: the Codex entry above also suggests that even a successfully indoctrinated thrall could last for days or even weeks before mental decay would render them mentally non-functional.  Even the attempt on Shepard lasts no more than a few hours, even if time is slowed down for some reason, or interrupted by periods of unconsciousness, during the endgame.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 03 novembre 2012 - 03:18 .