80611 réponses à ce sujet

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

That makes no sense.

Shepard shouldn't be alive in ANY of the endings.  Even if Shep survives in only one, that puts everything into doubt.

And thus we look at the one where Shep can survive - Destroy.  Why would that be?  Because its defiance against the Reapers, and thus its the defiance that's somehow keeping Shepard alive.  But why would defiance do that?  If its all a hallucination, and fighting back against it is the only way to break it.

And thus your point is invalid.

This. Thank you for putting it together that well. 

If literal - Shepard should not survive any of the endings.

You cannot know that with certainty, as established above, thus your point is still invalid.

[demersel]

It is very simple:
we're told by the same source what the choices would do.
it can either all be truth, or it can all be a lie.
Control is shown to do exaclty what we were told it would do.
Synthesis is shown to do exactly what we were told it would do.
Destroy is shown to do exaclty what we were told it would do. And yet in the end it turns out that it doesn't do what were told it would do in some respect. And in a most crucial detail really.
So, either we doubt all the choicese, or we don't doubt any.
If we doubt the choices - then we have to assume that the cinematics we see after the choices are made and the slide shows - are not real but dreams, showing us what we want to see. If we assume that we might as well assume that all the ending sequence is a dream. (hence shepard is not on the citadel to begin with)
Then there is the matter of normandy pickup scen which is simply unreal - that suggests that it may not be only the ending sequence but in fact much moree complicated and extensive illusion. And for now it is really difficult to tell what is real and what is not.

[MegumiAzusa]

ZerebusPrime wrote...
I'd agree that Shepard is experiencing the slow form of indoctrination throughout most of ME3.  However, I disagree that what we see at the end is a result of slow, subtle indoctrination.  I disagree because of the giant bug zapping beam in downtown London and the PDA referencing how people who go to "that place" come back changed.  I firmly believe that Shepard ran straight into a concentrated indoctrination killzone of sorts.

There is nothing on that datapad that suggests the structure mentioned is the beam.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 03 novembre 2012 - 03:42 .

[CmdrShep80]

@megumi - which section of the game are the sequences from?

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

It is very simple:
we're told by the same source what the choices would do.
it can either all be truth, or it can all be a lie.
Control is shown to do exaclty what we were told it would do.
Synthesis is shown to do exactly what we were told it would do.
Destroy is shown to do exaclty what we were told it would do. And yet in the end it turns out that it doesn't do what were told it would do in some respect. And in a most crucial detail really.
So, either we doubt all the choicese, or we don't doubt any.
If we doubt the choices - then we have to assume that the cinematics we see after the choices are made and the slide shows - are not real but dreams, showing us what we want to see. If we assume that we might as well assume that all the ending sequence is a dream. (hence shepard is not on the citadel to begin with)
Then there is the matter of normandy pickup scen which is simply unreal - that suggests that it may not be only the ending sequence but in fact much moree complicated and extensive illusion. And for now it is really difficult to tell what is real and what is not.

We are not told Control would be destructive, yet it is on low EMS.

[ZerebusPrime]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

*snip - long term vs. short term indoctrination codex information noted and acknowledged - snip*

I'd agree that Shepard is experiencing the slow form of indoctrination throughout most of ME3.  However, I disagree that what we see at the end is a result of slow, subtle indoctrination.  I disagree because of the giant bug zapping beam in downtown London and the PDA referencing how people who go to "that place" come back changed.  I firmly believe that Shepard ran straight into a concentrated indoctrination killzone of sorts.

i know we went over this but the Reapers weren't desperate so why push the issue on Shepard?  Maybe they know what the crucible really does (in a literal sense) in a IT sense they needed to find out from Shepard's mind what was being planned so they could stop it. I'm thinking the subvert a high ranking official that could end the resistance ( I won't say war since Reapers think in terms IOC harvests)

I'd agree that the Reapers aren't desperate, but it seems to me that they exploit every single possible advantage they can get their giant metal pointer fingers on.  They have numerical superiority, but they bother to devide the Alliance through Cerberus, they subvert the Batarian leadership, they seek to at least prolong the Geth-Quarian conflict, they use unnecessary psychological tactics against the Turian Hegemony... the list goes on (still not sure what that one Reaper was doing on Tuchanka, though).

[MegumiAzusa]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

@megumi - which section of the game are the sequences from?

iirc when you see how to open the pod, could also be when Javik touches you. Can't remember exactly. Got to get my complete playthrough going again at some point

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 03 novembre 2012 - 03:22 .

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Megumi, really? The explosion originates from the crucible sure, but after the energy shoot's out of the citadel it's presidium ring gets engulfed in a gian fireball. And shepard is closer to the middle than presidium ring. he's at the bottom of the tower, which is in the very middle of it.

Thus I said you cannot know how shielded the area is. You can only assume if it's enough or not.

ok, so the area is perfectly shielded  - that means that you're in a perfectly contained  area WITH the explosion. The explosion originates from your location. and it being shielded is even worse for you. 

Modifié par demersel, 03 novembre 2012 - 03:24 .

[MegumiAzusa]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You cannot know that with certainty, as established above, thus your point is still invalid.

To reiterate: denying things that are shown (shielded area, tower still intact afterwards) but saying you are open minded is a double standard.

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

We are not told Control would be destructive, yet it is on low EMS.

only further proves my point. 

[ZerebusPrime]

MegumiAzusa wrote...


There is nothing on that datapad that suggests the structure mentioned is the beam.

Storywise, it makes little sense to have the datapad mention "that place" and then have us not go to said location.  It's an unconfirmed implication, but a strong implication nonetheless.

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

Megumi, really? The explosion originates from the crucible sure, but after the energy shoot's out of the citadel it's presidium ring gets engulfed in a gian fireball. And shepard is closer to the middle than presidium ring. he's at the bottom of the tower, which is in the very middle of it.

Thus I said you cannot know how shielded the area is. You can only assume if it's enough or not.

ok, so the area is perfectly shielded  - that means that you're in a perfectly contained  area WITH the explosion. The explosion originates from your location. and it being shielded is even worse for you.

No, you can clearly see how the beam spreads around the base of the tower. Thus Shepard is shielded from the explosion.

[Davik Kang]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...
Depends how literal... 

Most of the people from this thread I've spoken with would be at least ok with a hallucination on the citadel. It has it's plot holes, but anything that puts control and especially synthesis as Reaper traps would be acceptable to me. Far from perfect, but acceptable

A ok, I didn't actually know that.  Nonetheless I have avoided constantly bringing up my differences with IT, and will continue to do so, as it would just create unnecessary friction.  Don't have such aversion to the occasional plug though

demersel wrote...
The literal literal. 

1 - Shepard is in the midlde of huge explosion in space, while being nealry dead already. 
2 - the beam that Shepard activated and that has affected entire galaxy, should have killed shepard, by disabling all of his implants, if we belive what we hear it does. If we don't - than it's not literal anymore. 

1 doesn't fit with what I think anyway cos I think the last bit is just a full-on hallucination, but 2... I had an argument with TTG about this, though regarding the synthetic implants, we agree that the highest-level EMS rating allows the Crucible to sufficiently target tech accurately enough that it does not cause sufficiently serious damage to such tech so as to kill Shepard as a consequence.  Could go into more detail, but it's probably best to avoid going into all that here unless it's relevant to IT somehow.

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

We are not told Control would be destructive, yet it is on low EMS.

only further proves my point.

lol you just made a point of how destory is not what the Guardian says and therefor its special and now it furthers your point if that is removed. Grats on being not good at logical thinking.

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You cannot know that with certainty, as established above, thus your point is still invalid.

To reiterate: denying things that are shown (shielded area, tower still intact afterwards) but saying you are open minded is a double standard.

I'm not denying the possibility of the shielded area, or possibly being still intact - whatever - it makes zero difference. Shepard can't servive that. That is not debatable. There is nothing to be open minded about. 

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

We are not told Control would be destructive, yet it is on low EMS.

only further proves my point.

lol you just made a point of how destory is not what the Guardian says and therefor its special and now it furthers your point if that is removed. Grats on being not good at logical thinking.

actually no, because in low ems scenario none of the options are what the Guardian says they are. - which only proves the point - we cannot trust what he says. 

[Davik Kang]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
There is nothing on that datapad that suggests the structure mentioned is the beam.

Er... nothing I've said here has anything to do with the datapad or the beam...

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

You cannot know that with certainty, as established above, thus your point is still invalid.

To reiterate: denying things that are shown (shielded area, tower still intact afterwards) but saying you are open minded is a double standard.

I'm not denying the possibility of the shielded area, or possibly being still intact - whatever - it makes zero difference. Shepard can't servive that. That is not debatable. There is nothing to be open minded about.

How can you contradict yourself and still think everything is not debatable? Shielded area = Shepard could survive.

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

No, you can clearly see how the beam spreads around the base of the tower. Thus Shepard is shielded from the explosion.

But shepard is not in the tower. He's on the side of the tower. So i really don't understand wat does it have to do with the tower at all? The explosion originates from the point where shepard is. There is clearly no force field between him and the crucible installation. 

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

We are not told Control would be destructive, yet it is on low EMS.

only further proves my point.

lol you just made a point of how destory is not what the Guardian says and therefor its special and now it furthers your point if that is removed. Grats on being not good at logical thinking.

actually no, because in low ems scenario none of the options are what the Guardian says they are. - which only proves the point - we cannot trust what he says.

No the Guardian just leaves out details. The way the endings are described is fine. You are trying to grasp at a new point here while your original one was invalidated.

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

How can you contradict yourself and still think everything is not debatable? Shielded area = Shepard could survive.

Shielded from what? From the space outside? ok. But the thing that explodes is with shepard in this shilded area. 
this shielded/not shielded is pure speculation anyway - post a pic where you can see this shield. 

And i'm not grasping at anything. 
What does destruction of things in low ems control has to do with anything?  The gaurdian tell's you you're gonna control the reapers - you control the reapers. 
The guardian tells you you can fuse all organic life with synthetic life - and you do. 
The guardian tells you you can wipe out all synthetic life including the geth - and it somehow wipes the reapers too - the are not synthetic - they are the synthesis of tech and organic - and so are you - the guardian tells you the the crucible will not differentiate - but yet in high ems you somehow survive. 

Modifié par demersel, 03 novembre 2012 - 03:41 .

[MegumiAzusa]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

No, you can clearly see how the beam spreads around the base of the tower. Thus Shepard is shielded from the explosion.

But shepard is not in the tower. He's on the side of the tower. So i really don't understand wat does it have to do with the tower at all? The explosion originates from the point where shepard is. There is clearly no force field between him and the crucible installation.

As you can see the energy is ablated around the base of the tower, thus there is a shield between Shep and the explosion.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 03 novembre 2012 - 03:37 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Davik Kang wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
There is nothing on that datapad that suggests the structure mentioned is the beam.

Er... nothing I've said here has anything to do with the datapad or the beam...

Sorry wanted only to quote the post you've quoted, forgot to remove your part

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...


As you can see the energy is ablated around the base of the tower, thus there is a shield between Shep and the explosion.

Where is that shield between Shepard and explosion? I don't see anything where shep is supposed to be, and shep is in the middle of that explosion. Where i'm supposed to be lookig? Because in the place where i am looking thinkg look not that good for shepard. 

[ZerebusPrime]

Davik Kang wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...
I'd agree that Shepard is experiencing the slow form of indoctrination throughout most of ME3.  However, I disagree that what we see at the end is a result of slow, subtle indoctrination.  I disagree because of the giant bug zapping beam in downtown London and the PDA referencing how people who go to "that place" come back changed.  I firmly believe that Shepard ran straight into a concentrated indoctrination killzone of sorts.

Ah damn I didn't explain my point well enough then.  No no, I'm not claiming that the indoctrination attempt is a slow one.  There are arguments that this is happening throughout ME3 and some are compelling, but that's not what I was getting at.

Imo the final attempt at indoctrinating Shepard IS a short-term, last ditch attempt.  A panic button on the Reapers' part if you like.

I was trying to highlight two things -
1. It failed
2. It didn't have any serious effects during the attempt.

This distinguishes it from the codex description.  To make the discussion easier I'll post it:

"Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable.  Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. "

I highlight 'manipulation' because this is suggestive that the lasting effects of indoctrination could be contingent on the Reaper successfully controlling the thrall.  While mental resistance lasts, the thrall could be able to recover from the indoctrination attempt.  The Codex is not clear as to whether merely the attempt at short-term indoctrination can cause brain damage, or whether such consequences depend on the success of the indoctrination.  

So, though I can't prove that Shepard will remain unaffected (or at least relatively healthy - I'm sure there will be at least some short term side-effects), I can at least demonstrate that it is not certain that Shepard would be rendered mindless by the attempt.

EDIT: the Codex entry above also suggests that even a successfully indoctrinated thrall could last for days or even weeks before mental decay would render them mentally non-functional.  Even the attempt on Shepard lasts no more than a few hours, even if time is slowed down for some reason, or interrupted by periods of unconsciousness, during the endgame.

Ok, I hate to do this because I hate it when people do this to me.  It's just so much legalese ruleslawyering, but here we go: I take issue with how you are reading the word "manipulate".  A quick google definition search brings up...

Handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner: "he manipulated the dials"

I can try to adjust the temperature of my house by manipulating the thermostat, but the temperature in the house is a function of more than just the air conditioning; insulation, heat from appliances, and the outdoor temperature have a large say in what the indoor temperature is.  Likewise, the Reapers can manipulate the lymbic system without successfully controlling the owner of said system.  As long as the lymbic system is being manipulated, however, damage is being done.  Ergo, I do not agree that the damage done is contingent upon successful control.  Furthermore, while rapid indoctrination is known to cause deterioration in a timespan measured in days or weeks, there is nothing to say that the Reapers couldn't turn the dial up ten thousand percent and cook Shepard's head like I would fry an egg.  Why would they do this?  I don't know, but there it is.

Regarding other points, the indoctrination seems to have succeeded for many players (go talk to the Synthesis crowd <_<) and we only assume that Destroy makes it a failure (and I sure hope it does).  As for serious after-effects... well, the game ended at a rather nerve racking cliffhanger from an IT point of view.  It remains to be seen just how much damage has or has not been done.  Shepard's brain may have implants allowing it to reconstruct itself or otherwise keep "Shepard" intact somehow, but that's purely conjecture.