Ce sujet est ferméspotlessvoid wrote...
Hey Ax. I was just about to post that, then I felt the slightest breeze and thought A Ninja is here
Sure enough.
Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!
Débuté par
byne
, juil. 30 2012 07:09
#43001
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 06:39
AxStapleton
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#43002
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 06:39
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Eryri wrote...
I'm not the first person to say this regarding control, but I think it's worth repeating; it's as though Frodo suddenly decided to wield the One Ring himself, usurp Sauron, take mental control over all the Orcs and then helpfully order them to go and rebuild Minas Tirith.
I think most people's reaction if that had actually happened in LotR would be a mixture of WTF! and Ewww!
It's just that thematically discordant and unsettling. Particularly taking control of the Orcs (/Reapers). Yes they were hideously unsympathetic, but the idea of the hero enslaving them and using them as tools would be repugnant to most people.
More repugnant is that he's taking the action that Tim wanted to take. There's something about doing that after seeing how Tim was behaving and what he was doing all over the galaxy as well as the way he 'improved' his soldiers, that is revolting. IE: if Tim wanted to do it, chances are it was a horrific idea with a horrible outcome (as Hackett points out - Tim has tried too subvert science and it's NEVER worked out for him, which I think is followed or preceeded with "dead reapers is how we win this"). Hmm? I think that's not only support FOR destroy forshadowing how control ends badly given much of what Tim ever did (that we know of - rachni, husks, creepers, etc) ended badly barring brining back Shepard so Shepard could destroy collectors, however, I still speculate that this was connected to Tim wanting to control the reapers because in ME2 he seems to have quite a clear handle on things. "The patterns are there" or something like that was his response to shepard when shepard asks about the reapers connection. Or at least I think that was it. So HE KNEW he was striking out at the reapers. And I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted that collector base from minute one. He had a lot of theories about things (friend/foe system for omega 4, reapers connected to collectors... )
Aren't the collectors supposed to be on Omega DLC? If so, I wonder if that will reveal that Tim was far more involved than would seem in ME2. I always thought he had a different agenda and never trusted him and hated that my choices in conversation implied shepard trusted him, like she would speak to him about certain things when I would have been like "I tell him nothing."
#43003
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 06:43
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MegumiAzusa wrote...
But she does so while having a badass reaper voice. Who wouldn't want that?Rifneno wrote...
IsaacShep wrote...
If it has different core values then of course the nature of the ending changes because Shep-AI shapes it.Davik Kang wrote...
The new AI may have different initial core values, but the nature of the ending sin't really different imo.
Well it's not like Shepbinger starts ranting about immortality and being beyond organic comprehension like Sovereign while referring to itself as "something greater" like Harbinger.
Oh no wait, yes he does.
That would make Sovereign wet itself.
#43004
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 06:47
AxStapleton
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FFZero wrote...
AxStapleton wrote...
starlitegirlx wrote...
Where is this converation about having a family? I've never come across that in game.
Its cut dialogue which got cut out from the final conversation with Anderson.
Here.
I'm not sure whether it was cut or if you have to meet certain parameters, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Shepard can’t have romanced anyone throughout the series to get it. All I know is I’ve never seen it in game, which is a good thing or I would’ve been crying even more at that point.
I'm pretty sure its cut because I haven't seen a single in-game video with this dialogue included. Which wouldn't be too hard to do seeing as you could play through as the default ME3 Shepard and start from there.
#43005
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 06:50
Rifneno
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I've had a Shepard that went through all 3 games without so much as making a pass at anyone and never saw that dialogue. It's either bugged, or it's cut.
#43006
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 06:51
MegumiAzusa
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I guess nothing but a rumor. Had no romance while using the non import Shep and it was just the standard conversation.FFZero wrote...
I'm not sure whether it was cut or if you have to meet certain parameters, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Shepard can’t have romanced anyone throughout the series to get it. All I know is I’ve never seen it in game, which is a good thing or I would’ve been crying even more at that point.
#43007
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 06:57
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AxStapleton wrote...
starlitegirlx wrote...
ZerebusPrime wrote...
The missing link: why a child?
I was thinking about cut version of David Anderson's "you did good" talk. In this conversation, Anderson asks Shepard if he ever thought about starting a family and tells him that not having a family was one of his greatest regrets in life. Here in the IT thread, though, we see Anderson in this sequence not as himself but rather as Shepard's unspoiled "good" side, in which case this conversation should have raised all sorts of red flags. If Shepard's conscience regrets not having a family, then it means that deep down Shepard regrets not having a family. And therein was the kink in his mental armor that the Reapers first seeped through, creating the apparition of the child playing outside Shepard's window. The Reapers then sought to widen the gap by showing the kid get vaporized, and then again and again with successive dreams. Finally, they manage to crack Shepard after his failure on Thessia. After that, we start seeing progressively weirder things in Shepard's waking hours, starting from the Cerberus HQ mission and culminating in the Decision Chamber.
Or, from a more literal point of view, it could have simply implied that Anderson had been seeing visions of children, too, which would point towards his own indoctrination.
Where is this converation about having a family? I've never come across that in game.
Its cut dialogue which got cut out from the final conversation with Anderson.
Here.
Given all the other cutscenes they had, cutting that one, which is pretty moving is suspicious to me. Why cut a conversation about being a parent right before the starbrat appears? Very suspicious. What are the thoughts as to why it was cut? I think it was cut to not misconstrue indoctrination nightmares as dreams about something shepard wanted. Also, to not make the ending about the catalyst being about a child shepard wanted rather one that tormented him/her in nightmares for not saving him from the vents and shuttle crash.
#43008
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 06:58
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Rifneno wrote...
I've had a Shepard that went through all 3 games without so much as making a pass at anyone and never saw that dialogue. It's either bugged, or it's cut.
My first playthoughs I never romanced and never saw it.
#43009
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 07:07
hiraeth
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starlitegirlx wrote...
AxStapleton wrote...
starlitegirlx wrote...
ZerebusPrime wrote...
The missing link: why a child?
I was thinking about cut version of David Anderson's "you did good" talk. In this conversation, Anderson asks Shepard if he ever thought about starting a family and tells him that not having a family was one of his greatest regrets in life. Here in the IT thread, though, we see Anderson in this sequence not as himself but rather as Shepard's unspoiled "good" side, in which case this conversation should have raised all sorts of red flags. If Shepard's conscience regrets not having a family, then it means that deep down Shepard regrets not having a family. And therein was the kink in his mental armor that the Reapers first seeped through, creating the apparition of the child playing outside Shepard's window. The Reapers then sought to widen the gap by showing the kid get vaporized, and then again and again with successive dreams. Finally, they manage to crack Shepard after his failure on Thessia. After that, we start seeing progressively weirder things in Shepard's waking hours, starting from the Cerberus HQ mission and culminating in the Decision Chamber.
Or, from a more literal point of view, it could have simply implied that Anderson had been seeing visions of children, too, which would point towards his own indoctrination.
Where is this converation about having a family? I've never come across that in game.
Its cut dialogue which got cut out from the final conversation with Anderson.
Here.
Given all the other cutscenes they had, cutting that one, which is pretty moving is suspicious to me. Why cut a conversation about being a parent right before the starbrat appears? Very suspicious. What are the thoughts as to why it was cut? I think it was cut to not misconstrue indoctrination nightmares as dreams about something shepard wanted. Also, to not make the ending about the catalyst being about a child shepard wanted rather one that tormented him/her in nightmares for not saving him from the vents and shuttle crash.
Yeah...it's possible that, for some people, seeing Starchild right after that dialogue *might* have made them be more sympathetic toward the Starchild ("oh I can't hate you, you're just a child...a child is what I've always wanted but never got, so I can't destroy/hate you" or some version of that). Personally, I would have still called bulls*** on the whole thing, mostly because Starchild still takes a manipulative tone during his conversation, but I can see how others might have reacted differently.
So is it possible that BW didn't *want* us to be overly-sympathetic toward Starchild?
#43010
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 07:07
Eryri
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starlitegirlx wrote...
AxStapleton wrote...
starlitegirlx wrote...
ZerebusPrime wrote...
The missing link: why a child?
I was thinking about cut version of David Anderson's "you did good" talk. In this conversation, Anderson asks Shepard if he ever thought about starting a family and tells him that not having a family was one of his greatest regrets in life. Here in the IT thread, though, we see Anderson in this sequence not as himself but rather as Shepard's unspoiled "good" side, in which case this conversation should have raised all sorts of red flags. If Shepard's conscience regrets not having a family, then it means that deep down Shepard regrets not having a family. And therein was the kink in his mental armor that the Reapers first seeped through, creating the apparition of the child playing outside Shepard's window. The Reapers then sought to widen the gap by showing the kid get vaporized, and then again and again with successive dreams. Finally, they manage to crack Shepard after his failure on Thessia. After that, we start seeing progressively weirder things in Shepard's waking hours, starting from the Cerberus HQ mission and culminating in the Decision Chamber.
Or, from a more literal point of view, it could have simply implied that Anderson had been seeing visions of children, too, which would point towards his own indoctrination.
Where is this converation about having a family? I've never come across that in game.
Its cut dialogue which got cut out from the final conversation with Anderson.
Here.
Given all the other cutscenes they had, cutting that one, which is pretty moving is suspicious to me. Why cut a conversation about being a parent right before the starbrat appears? Very suspicious. What are the thoughts as to why it was cut? I think it was cut to not misconstrue indoctrination nightmares as dreams about something shepard wanted. Also, to not make the ending about the catalyst being about a child shepard wanted rather one that tormented him/her in nightmares for not saving him from the vents and shuttle crash.
According to the Final Hours Interviews, Mac Walters wrote this extra dialogue and was keen to include it, but was over-ruled by Casey Hudson.
The reason they gave in the interviews was that the scene was running on too long. Maybe they were also worried that some people with Renegade Sheps would think it was out of character? I think the cut dialogue is very moving myself.
@ZerebusPrime - those are very good points that hadn't occured to me.
Modifié par Eryri, 03 novembre 2012 - 07:38 .
#43011
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 07:13
Eryri
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MassEffectFShep wrote...
Yeah...it's possible that, for some people, seeing Starchild right after that dialogue *might* have made them be more sympathetic toward the Starchild ("oh I can't hate you, you're just a child...a child is what I've always wanted but never got, so I can't destroy/hate you" or some version of that). Personally, I would have still called bulls*** on the whole thing, mostly because Starchild still takes a manipulative tone during his conversation, but I can see how others might have reacted differently.
So is it possible that BW didn't *want* us to be overly-sympathetic toward Starchild?
Interesting. Maybe it was the reverse? They were worried that if they laid on the sentimentality too thick, people would smell a rat, and no one would fall for their real-life indoctrination trap?
#43012
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 07:15
hiraeth
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Eryri wrote...
MassEffectFShep wrote...
Yeah...it's possible that, for some people, seeing Starchild right after that dialogue *might* have made them be more sympathetic toward the Starchild ("oh I can't hate you, you're just a child...a child is what I've always wanted but never got, so I can't destroy/hate you" or some version of that). Personally, I would have still called bulls*** on the whole thing, mostly because Starchild still takes a manipulative tone during his conversation, but I can see how others might have reacted differently.
So is it possible that BW didn't *want* us to be overly-sympathetic toward Starchild?
Interesting. Maybe it was the reverse? They were worried that if they laid on the sentimentality too thick, people would smell a rat, and no one would fall for their real-life indoctrination trap?
yeah, makes sense too
#43013
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 07:52
jojon2se
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Other than it being less snappy, I feel that it would take away, somewhat, from the other: mentor-figure-pretty-much-adopting-Shepard-there-on-the-spot, sentimentality thing, which still leaves the things from the longer version, on Anderson's part, implied.
-That's without any regard to Anderson as an avatar for a part of Shepard's mind and all that, of course.
-That's without any regard to Anderson as an avatar for a part of Shepard's mind and all that, of course.
#43014
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 08:32
BatmanTurian
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ZerebusPrime wrote...
The missing link: why a child?
I was thinking about cut version of David Anderson's "you did good" talk. In this conversation, Anderson asks Shepard if he ever thought about starting a family and tells him that not having a family was one of his greatest regrets in life. Here in the IT thread, though, we see Anderson in this sequence not as himself but rather as Shepard's unspoiled "good" side, in which case this conversation should have raised all sorts of red flags. If Shepard's conscience regrets not having a family, then it means that deep down Shepard regrets not having a family. And therein was the kink in his mental armor that the Reapers first seeped through, creating the apparition of the child playing outside Shepard's window. The Reapers then sought to widen the gap by showing the kid get vaporized, and then again and again with successive dreams. Finally, they manage to crack Shepard after his failure on Thessia. After that, we start seeing progressively weirder things in Shepard's waking hours, starting from the Cerberus HQ mission and culminating in the Decision Chamber.
Or, from a more literal point of view, it could have simply implied that Anderson had been seeing visions of children, too, which would point towards his own indoctrination.
Holy crap, why didn't I think of this? Great catch!
#43016
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 08:40
BansheeOwnage
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Whoa you're right! Ridiculous!BatmanTurian wrote...
ZerebusPrime wrote...
The missing link: why a child?
I was thinking about cut version of David Anderson's "you did good" talk. In this conversation, Anderson asks Shepard if he ever thought about starting a family and tells him that not having a family was one of his greatest regrets in life. Here in the IT thread, though, we see Anderson in this sequence not as himself but rather as Shepard's unspoiled "good" side, in which case this conversation should have raised all sorts of red flags. If Shepard's conscience regrets not having a family, then it means that deep down Shepard regrets not having a family. And therein was the kink in his mental armor that the Reapers first seeped through, creating the apparition of the child playing outside Shepard's window. The Reapers then sought to widen the gap by showing the kid get vaporized, and then again and again with successive dreams. Finally, they manage to crack Shepard after his failure on Thessia. After that, we start seeing progressively weirder things in Shepard's waking hours, starting from the Cerberus HQ mission and culminating in the Decision Chamber.
Or, from a more literal point of view, it could have simply implied that Anderson had been seeing visions of children, too, which would point towards his own indoctrination.
Holy crap, why didn't I think of this? Great catch!
#43017
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 08:40
Andromidius
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Thing is, didn't Anderson have children? I'm pretty sure they are mentioned in passing.
Which makes the whole conversation completely out of wack.
Which makes the whole conversation completely out of wack.
#43018
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 08:43
BansheeOwnage
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Yes, exactly. Which, like most things related to the ending, means either Bioware absolutely failed hardcore or Anderson is part of Shepard's subconscious.Andromidius wrote...
Thing is, didn't Anderson have children? I'm pretty sure they are mentioned in passing.
Which makes the whole conversation completely out of wack.
#43019
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 08:44
BansheeOwnage
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I just noticed Anderson says 
#43020
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 08:47
Andromidius
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BansheeOwnage wrote...
Yes, exactly. Which, like most things related to the ending, means either Bioware absolutely failed hardcore or Anderson is part of Shepard's subconscious.Andromidius wrote...
Thing is, didn't Anderson have children? I'm pretty sure they are mentioned in passing.
Which makes the whole conversation completely out of wack.
http://masseffect.wi..._David_Anderson
It mentioned two men in the personal message, from his wife. From the language used, they are likely his sons.
Either Anderson isn't really there and its a construct of Shepard's mind, or its all real but Anderson and Shepard are sharing memories - a sign of indoctrination.
#43021
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 08:52
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BansheeOwnage wrote...
Yes, exactly. Which, like most things related to the ending, means either Bioware absolutely failed hardcore or Anderson is part of Shepard's subconscious.Andromidius wrote...
Thing is, didn't Anderson have children? I'm pretty sure they are mentioned in passing.
Which makes the whole conversation completely out of wack.
The gunshot on Shepard establishes subconscious/indoctrination attempt, doesn't it? I always thought that it much was clear.
The child part of the discussion being, to me, seems like it might have been cut because it would change the meaning or relevance of the nightmares as indoctrination attempts or the slow indoctrination process. The discussion would have people using it as proof that Shepard was wishing he/she had a child and that haunted him/her the same way they call it PTSD even though it's pretty clear that it's not.
#43022
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 08:53
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LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Of course they're not done yet. They've already announced the next one. There is still infinite possibility in the MEU.SwobyJ wrote...
That's really cool!
And @ spot: I don't find Destroy to sound so 'triumphant'. It feels still subdued and wistful, however in its military way.
All the music for the original endings and the EC have screamed to me: "We're not done yet."
Agreed, but what I meant was that 'we're not done yet with Shepard'.
This is NO 'From the Wreckage' track, that's for sure.
But then again, I have to remind myself that my idea of a several-to-15 hour expansion is not even remotely confirmed.
Everyone, remember that old screenshot of ME3 that showed the Galaxy Map with Illium saying "Conflict Zone"?
#43023
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 08:54
gunslinger_ruiz
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Andromidius wrote...
BansheeOwnage wrote...
Yes, exactly. Which, like most things related to the ending, means either Bioware absolutely failed hardcore or Anderson is part of Shepard's subconscious.Andromidius wrote...
Thing is, didn't Anderson have children? I'm pretty sure they are mentioned in passing.
Which makes the whole conversation completely out of wack.
http://masseffect.wi..._David_Anderson
It mentioned two men in the personal message, from his wife. From the language used, they are likely his sons.
Either Anderson isn't really there and its a construct of Shepard's mind, or its all real but Anderson and Shepard are sharing memories - a sign of indoctrination.
Hmm...
In the first book, Revelation, when Anderson gets a message from his Divorce lawyer it's menitoned they don't have any children. Something about the lawyer being relieved there was no custody battle, just read it last week I'll see if I can find the page.
Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 03 novembre 2012 - 08:55 .
#43024
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 08:55
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
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Andromidius wrote...
BansheeOwnage wrote...
Yes, exactly. Which, like most things related to the ending, means either Bioware absolutely failed hardcore or Anderson is part of Shepard's subconscious.Andromidius wrote...
Thing is, didn't Anderson have children? I'm pretty sure they are mentioned in passing.
Which makes the whole conversation completely out of wack.
http://masseffect.wi..._David_Anderson
It mentioned two men in the personal message, from his wife. From the language used, they are likely his sons.
Either Anderson isn't really there and its a construct of Shepard's mind, or its all real but Anderson and Shepard are sharing memories - a sign of indoctrination.
Considering the great lengths they've gone taken to keep the IT as unnoticable as possible, I'm guessing they removed it because odds are that it would trigger people to say WTF?! which would have completely nullified the endings and the whole attempt to indoctrinate an entire audience.
#43025
Posté 03 novembre 2012 - 08:55
Dwailing
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Wow, that thing with Anderson is... wow. I never thought about looking at that conversation that way. BTW, has anyone actually been able to confirm whether it really IS available with absolutely no romances?
