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[BansheeOwnage]

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Jade's puzzle theory + IT may be how it's all actually going down.

I hope so. They're in no way incompatible, and the PT is pretty much confirmed to a point. IT is super-likely too.

I'm just glad Halo 4 comes out in 2 days. It's always been my fallback game. That's where my name comes from, after all. I mean, I always end up going back to Halo after playing other games. It is very consistent. I know Halo 4 will have a good ending. And 2 of my favourite characters (Femshep, Harbinger) are in it!

I like Halo, but I think the story got ridiculous when it turned out that 100,000 years ago, humans were just as advanced as the Forerunners and were allied with the Prophets. 

Yeah, I agree that's really weird. But I never even read those books, so I'll see what happens in 2 days.

[BatmanTurian]

SwobyJ wrote...

So what?

Bioware is known to only rarely give true 'game over' endings to your choices in Mass Effect.

All the endings, on higher EMS, are ones of hope. It might be Shepard's downfall in some cases, but it does mean that he never loses hope, at all, compared to every other indoctrinated person we've met.

It's up to you whether to sympathize with Cerberus, or mostly reject them but use their resources. It's up to you whether to be attached to a character enough to romance them, or to ignore that entirely.

It's up to you how much you want to destroy the Reapers. The seeds of this story ARE there, even if the top layer of the narrative is the message of 'destroy the Reapers'.

I'm by no means advocating Control or Synthesis as the StarBrat presents them.

I'm only saying that Synthesis IS inevitable (and already happening in the ME universe)... but NOT by the Reapers' terms. (this might explain Jessica's comment too btw...) The Reapers create Husks, not individuals.

And Control IS technically possible, but the biggest risk any one could ever make. (aka it will lead to ruination, and no good results)

So Bioware is just laying out the choices and going: "Ok, so you think you understand our story? Here's your test (your crucible)."

"We wouldn't know how to write that story." <--- I get it now Bioware, finally.

I must admit, you are quite thorough.

[byne]

BatmanTurian wrote...

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Jade's puzzle theory + IT may be how it's all actually going down.

I hope so. They're in no way incompatible, and the PT is pretty much confirmed to a point. IT is super-likely too.

I'm just glad Halo 4 comes out in 2 days. It's always been my fallback game. That's where my name comes from, after all. I mean, I always end up going back to Halo after playing other games. It is very consistent. I know Halo 4 will have a good ending. And 2 of my favourite characters (Femshep, Harbinger) are in it!

I like Halo, but I think the story got ridiculous when it turned out that 100,000 years ago, humans were just as advanced as the Forerunners and were allied with the Prophets. 

As far as I understand it, Humans ARE the Forerunners.

No, the humans were at war with the Forerunners.

[Hrothdane]

BatmanTurian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Jade's puzzle theory + IT may be how it's all actually going down.

I feel its a general mixture of:

-IT
-Puzzle
-Deception
-Waking Nightmare

With some incorrect details in each of them. The Hackett theory I've talked about before is.. well, I don't think hes actually indoctrinated, but I do think that the Alliance is NOT as pure as we are lead to believe in ME3. It's just part of the narrative that we get to see them in a better light... for now.

I'm not sure how we would combine them all, like some kind of voltron reject or a reaper.

IT --> Indoctrination/enthrallment/etc is used.
Puzzle --> Bioware has even openly admitted to using the DLC as "puzzle pieces" to the story
Deception --> The Catalyst is lying
Waking Nightmare --> At least part of the ending is happening in a different form, in the 'real' world, and Shepard may be walking toward the big beam in the real London as well, if you pick Synthesis

Makes sense. What would we call this over-arching theory?

What else? The Grand Unified Mass Effect Ending Theory.

GUMEET.

[BansheeOwnage]

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

byne wrote...

Shepard: The goal of  this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.
Javik: But how far are you willing to go to achieve that goal? I do not believe you commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words.

This conversation always stands out to me. Why would there be doubt behind Shepard's words?

That only happens if your Shepard is Paragon.
If renegade he says this: Lies are easy to detect. But you seem to be telling the truth, Commander. For now.

When is that conversation? I've only played From Ashes once.

"Wipe the reapers from existence"? I like it.

Its right after you pick Javik up, during the conversation with him and Liara. Its the second choice you have when talking to him. Pick the renegade option as a paragon.

I don't understand. He thinks you're lying if paragon, but not if renegade?

[BatmanTurian]

byne wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Jade's puzzle theory + IT may be how it's all actually going down.

I hope so. They're in no way incompatible, and the PT is pretty much confirmed to a point. IT is super-likely too.

I'm just glad Halo 4 comes out in 2 days. It's always been my fallback game. That's where my name comes from, after all. I mean, I always end up going back to Halo after playing other games. It is very consistent. I know Halo 4 will have a good ending. And 2 of my favourite characters (Femshep, Harbinger) are in it!

I like Halo, but I think the story got ridiculous when it turned out that 100,000 years ago, humans were just as advanced as the Forerunners and were allied with the Prophets. 

As far as I understand it, Humans ARE the Forerunners.

No, the humans were at war with the Forerunners.

Then that halo cartoon makes no sense.

[BatmanTurian]

Hrothdane wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Jade's puzzle theory + IT may be how it's all actually going down.

I feel its a general mixture of:

-IT
-Puzzle
-Deception
-Waking Nightmare

With some incorrect details in each of them. The Hackett theory I've talked about before is.. well, I don't think hes actually indoctrinated, but I do think that the Alliance is NOT as pure as we are lead to believe in ME3. It's just part of the narrative that we get to see them in a better light... for now.

I'm not sure how we would combine them all, like some kind of voltron reject or a reaper.

IT --> Indoctrination/enthrallment/etc is used.
Puzzle --> Bioware has even openly admitted to using the DLC as "puzzle pieces" to the story
Deception --> The Catalyst is lying
Waking Nightmare --> At least part of the ending is happening in a different form, in the 'real' world, and Shepard may be walking toward the big beam in the real London as well, if you pick Synthesis

Makes sense. What would we call this over-arching theory?

What else? The Grand Unified Mass Effect Ending Theory.

GUMEET.

GUMEET. Oh dear...

[shepskisaac]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

IT is super-likely too.

In what sense? Bioware will release DLC that has Shep waking up from his nap and going to fight the Reapers?

[byne]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

byne wrote...

Shepard: The goal of  this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.
Javik: But how far are you willing to go to achieve that goal? I do not believe you commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words.

This conversation always stands out to me. Why would there be doubt behind Shepard's words?

That only happens if your Shepard is Paragon.
If renegade he says this: Lies are easy to detect. But you seem to be telling the truth, Commander. For now.

When is that conversation? I've only played From Ashes once.

"Wipe the reapers from existence"? I like it.

Its right after you pick Javik up, during the conversation with him and Liara. Its the second choice you have when talking to him. Pick the renegade option as a paragon.

I don't understand. He thinks you're lying if paragon, but not if renegade?

Right. Its the only time I can recall in all three games where picking a renegade option has different dialogue if you're actually paragon.

[BatmanTurian]

SwobyJ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Jade's puzzle theory + IT may be how it's all actually going down.

I feel its a general mixture of:

-IT
-Puzzle
-Deception
-Waking Nightmare

With some incorrect details in each of them. The Hackett theory I've talked about before is.. well, I don't think hes actually indoctrinated, but I do think that the Alliance is NOT as pure as we are lead to believe in ME3. It's just part of the narrative that we get to see them in a better light... for now.

I'm not sure how we would combine them all, like some kind of voltron reject or a reaper.

IT --> Indoctrination/enthrallment/etc is used.
Puzzle --> Bioware has even openly admitted to using the DLC as "puzzle pieces" to the story
Deception --> The Catalyst is lying
Waking Nightmare --> At least part of the ending is happening in a different form, in the 'real' world, and Shepard may be walking toward the big beam in the real London as well, if you pick Synthesis

Makes sense. What would we call this over-arching theory?

I usually just call it Indoctrination Theory still, for my personal ease.

Otherwise I just call it 'My personal theory', which annoys my boyfriend to no end, as he's only starting the Tuchanka arc on ME3

If anyone has a good name for this, have at it, and I may make a thread on it, with whatever details (though not hugely that much into details, as other Theories easily contain those) I can gather.

I wonder what Twilight God will have to say about incorporating his theory into a higher one.

[BatmanTurian]

SwobyJ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

So what?

Bioware is known to only rarely give true 'game over' endings to your choices in Mass Effect.

All the endings, on higher EMS, are ones of hope. It might be Shepard's downfall in some cases, but it does mean that he never loses hope, at all, compared to every other indoctrinated person we've met.

It's up to you whether to sympathize with Cerberus, or mostly reject them but use their resources. It's up to you whether to be attached to a character enough to romance them, or to ignore that entirely.

It's up to you how much you want to destroy the Reapers. The seeds of this story ARE there, even if the top layer of the narrative is the message of 'destroy the Reapers'.

I'm by no means advocating Control or Synthesis as the StarBrat presents them.

I'm only saying that Synthesis IS inevitable (and already happening in the ME universe)... but NOT by the Reapers' terms. (this might explain Jessica's comment too btw...) The Reapers create Husks, not individuals.

And Control IS technically possible, but the biggest risk any one could ever make. (aka it will lead to ruination, and no good results)

So Bioware is just laying out the choices and going: "Ok, so you think you understand our story? Here's your test (your crucible)."

"We wouldn't know how to write that story." <--- I get it now Bioware, finally.

I must admit, you are quite thorough.

It's just that the story is becoming much more clear to me now, several months after ME3 was released.

And I respect it. I think that there's a good chance that I'm right, and I now feel some sympathy (SOME) for what Bioware has went through.

Yet, I recognize that this could all be me hoping for a several hour ME3 expansion next year, and that its leading me to silly conclusions

I know, I just like playing Devil Advocate and being the Cynic if only for a few posts. I know it probably annoys some of you.

[BatmanTurian]

IsaacShep wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

IT is super-likely too.

In what sense? Bioware will release DLC that has Shep waking up from his nap and going to fight the Reapers?

Technically, it doesn't change the ending since semantically, the ending is Stargazer.

[BatmanTurian]

SwobyJ wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...

What else? The Mega Super Grand Unified Mass Effect Ending Theory of Awesomeness.

GUMEET.

 lol MSGUMEETA

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 03 novembre 2012 - 11:53 .

[smokingotter1]

SwobyJ wrote...

byne wrote...

Shepard: The goal of  this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.
Javik: But how far are you willing to go to achieve that goal? I do not believe you commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words.

This conversation always stands out to me. Why would there be doubt behind Shepard's words?

I think Bioware writes it where:

-Shepard consciously wants Destroy
-*Always wonders* about Control (but doesn't let himself believe it can/will happen, most of the time)
-Wishes for Synthesis, at least in many playthrough

When you read between the lines. That's why the Catalyst choices are both so jarring, yet not totally unexpected. We DO realize that Shepard does sometimes ask about how controlling the Reapers is possible, even as he consciously objects to and rejects the notion.

And his friendship and openness (in most playthroughs) to synthetics and AI is a sign that in some part of him, he wishes a form of synthesis (the kind in the Synthesis ending dream, ahem) would be possible.

To me female/male, renegade/paragon there is no way Commander Shepard would go for either control or synthesis, those decisions are merely player choices.

Choosing control or synthesis goes against who Shepard is deep down inside and by doing so you destroy who he is. Shepard's death in control and synthesis could be real is probably more symbolic. Again remember this is the same person who killed a crap load of Batarians just to slow the reapers down. Where are his nightmares about that?

You have to kill Shepard to make way for something new:


This dream is basically telling you that. A Shepard without armor or weapons. Defanged.

• That is why you drop the gun in both synthesis and control.
• That is why the same energy that goes through the synthesis beam goes through the control choice.
• That is why Shepard gets indoctrinated eyes and his burns are the same in control and synthesis.
• That is also why the synthesis beam remains intact in control and grows stronger in with the synthesis choice.

That is why Shepard gains full mobility in both destroy and synthesis. Destroy he's fighting and overcoming the influence. In synthesis he's going full on board the reaper express, Shepard is going with the reapers and the reapers are not fighting his choice, only in control is Shepard limping all the way to the end. He's resisting but getting swept away anyway.

"You could have fought, you could have resisted. Instead you surrendered, you quit."

Modifié par smokingotter1, 03 novembre 2012 - 11:54 .

[BatmanTurian]

SwobyJ wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

I wonder what Twilight God will have to say about incorporating his theory into a higher one.

All I'd really be taking from his theory is: The Catalyst is decieving you.

Big whoops. If the 'Catalyst' is really Harbinger, of course he's manipulating you, and may have been since ME2 anyway, duh.

Yeah, but you know how he is... But I see your point.

[shepskisaac]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Technically, it doesn't change the ending since semantically, the ending is Stargazer.

But if everything after Harby's beam was a sweet nap, so was the Stargazer scene. And even if it wasn't, the game still had no ending. We have no idea what happened with Shep, squadmates, TIM, Anderson, how were Reapers defeated, etc etc

[BatmanTurian]

smokingotter1 wrote...

To me female/male, renegade/paragon there is no way Commander Shepard would go for either control or synthesis, those decisions are merely player choices.

Choosing control or synthesis goes against who Shepard is deep down inside and by doing so you destroy who he is. Shepard's death in control and synthesis could be real is probably more symbolic. Again remember this is the same person who killed a crap load of Batarians just to slow the reapers down. Where are his nightmares about that?

You have to kill Shepard to make way for something new:
*snip*
This dream is basically telling you that. A Shepard without armor or weapons. Defanged.

• That is why you drop the gun in both synthesis and control.
• That is why the same energy that goes through the synthesis beam goes through the control choice.
• That is why Shepard gets indoctrinated eyes and his burns are the same in control and synthesis.
• That is also why the synthesis beam remains intact in control and grows stronger in with the synthesis choice.

That is why Shepard gains full mobility in both destroy and synthesis. Destroy he's fighting and overcoming the influence. In synthesis he's going full on board the reaper express, Shepard is going with the reapers and the reapers are not fighting his choice, only in control is Shepard limping all the way to th end. He's resisting but getting swept away anyway.

"You could have fought, you could have resisted. Instead you surrendered, you quit."

wow, that's deep.

[BansheeOwnage]

BatmanTurian wrote...

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Jade's puzzle theory + IT may be how it's all actually going down.

I hope so. They're in no way incompatible, and the PT is pretty much confirmed to a point. IT is super-likely too.

I'm just glad Halo 4 comes out in 2 days. It's always been my fallback game. That's where my name comes from, after all. I mean, I always end up going back to Halo after playing other games. It is very consistent. I know Halo 4 will have a good ending. And 2 of my favourite characters (Femshep, Harbinger) are in it!

I like Halo, but I think the story got ridiculous when it turned out that 100,000 years ago, humans were just as advanced as the Forerunners and were allied with the Prophets. 

As far as I understand it, Humans ARE the Forerunners.

No, we're not. Spark isn't speaking literally. (It's funny because everyone views things in storytelling too literally.) Spark meant humans are essentially the current forerunners, because the forerunners are dead and humans are the inheritors of all they left behind.

[BatmanTurian]

IsaacShep wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Technically, it doesn't change the ending since semantically, the ending is Stargazer.

But if everything after Harby's beam was a sweet nap, so was the Stargazer scene. And even if it wasn't, the game still had no ending. We have no idea what happened with Shep, squadmates, TIM, Anderson, how were Reapers defeated, etc etc

Stargazer is separate because it happens after the Breath Scene. Again, the only one true ending they won't change.

[Restrider]

I finished the polls for the Great Character Alignment Thread [Polls included].
I will go to sleep now, the lack of sleep really decreases my processing powers.
Edit: Top, that's just awesome.

Modifié par Restrider, 03 novembre 2012 - 11:58 .