Aller au contenu

Photo

Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


  • Ce sujet est fermé Ce sujet est fermé
80611 réponses à ce sujet

#43151
Guest_SwobyJ_*

Guest_SwobyJ_*
  • Guests

smokingotter1 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

byne wrote...

Shepard: The goal of  this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.
Javik: But how far are you willing to go to achieve that goal? I do not believe you commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words.


This conversation always stands out to me. Why would there be doubt behind Shepard's words?


I think Bioware writes it where:

-Shepard consciously wants Destroy
-*Always wonders* about Control (but doesn't let himself believe it can/will happen, most of the time)
-Wishes for Synthesis, at least in many playthrough

When you read between the lines. That's why the Catalyst choices are both so jarring, yet not totally unexpected. We DO realize that Shepard does sometimes ask about how controlling the Reapers is possible, even as he consciously objects to and rejects the notion.

And his friendship and openness (in most playthroughs) to synthetics and AI is a sign that in some part of him, he wishes a form of synthesis (the kind in the Synthesis ending dream, ahem) would be possible.


To me female/male, renegade/paragon there is no way Commander Shepard would go for either control or synthesis, those decisions are merely player choices.

Choosing control or synthesis goes against who Shepard is deep down inside and by doing so you destroy who he is. Shepard's death in control and synthesis could be real is probably more symbolic. Again remember this is the same person who killed a crap load of Batarians just to slow the reapers down. Where are his nightmares about that?

You have to kill Shepard to make way for something new:

Posted Image
This dream is basically telling you that. A Shepard without armor or weapons. Defanged.
  • That is why you drop the gun in both synthesis and control.
  • That is why the same energy that goes through the synthesis beam goes through the control choice.
  • That is why Shepard gets indoctrinated eyes and his burns are the same in control and synthesis.
  • That is also why the synthesis beam remains intact in control and grows stronger in with the synthesis choice.
That is why Shepard gains full mobility in both destroy and synthesis. Destroy he's fighting and overcoming the influence. In synthesis he's going full on board the reaper express, Shepard is going with the reapers and the reapers are not fighting his choice, only in control is Shepard limping all the way to th end. He's resisting but getting swept away anyway.

"You could have fought, you could have resisted. Instead you surrendered, you quit."


Well yeah, I agree. Just because a character is curious about Control, and works towards greater Synthesis, doesn't mean he should accept to change the entire galaxy based on that alone.

I'm only saying that it adds a layer of depth to the character of Shepard that maybe up to the majority of the playerbase didn't even realize.

I kinda see 4 layers of his onion:

1. Destroy - He presents this to pretty much everyone

2. Control - He wonders about it at times, even openly to close squadmates and allies (Hackett for example), but rejects it ultimately.

3. Synthesis - He doesn't even wonder about it, but his actions can reflect wishes for a greater understanding between organics and synthetics. "You're just a machine!" turns into much more peaceful sentiments about synthetics as the series progresses, and Shepard learns much more information over time about them. Also, the Lazerus Project having recreated Shepard into a semi-cyborg may have been the prompting in this (subtexual).

4. Yet in the end, his fight is ALWAYS about stopping the Reapers. And the story keeps telling us: "To stop you Reapers, you DESTROY them, and you BREAK the cycle of Control and Synthesis that the Reapers use to manipulate organics."

#43152
BatmanTurian

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

BansheeOwnage wrote...

No, we're not. Spark isn't speaking literally. (It's funny because everyone views things in storytelling too literally.) Spark meant humans are essentially the current forerunners, because the forerunners are dead and humans are the inheritors of all they left behind.


Oh, I found that confusing. Cortana says the same thing in Halo Legends, that humans were composed of the DNA of the forerunners. The ARK implies this as does the fact that Forerunner tech responds to human DNA. Maybe they retconned it.

#43153
Guest_SwobyJ_*

Guest_SwobyJ_*
  • Guests

IsaacShep wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Technically, it doesn't change the ending since semantically, the ending is Stargazer.

But if everything after Harby's beam was a sweet nap, so was the Stargazer scene. And even if it wasn't, the game still had no ending. We have no idea what happened with Shep, squadmates, TIM, Anderson, how were Reapers defeated, etc etc


Yeah that's why I'm only partially sympathetic with Bioware, if I'm right about the story.

You don't end a story with an illusion and not expect total blowback from that decision.

At the same time, I can personally admire it... AND THE ART. :o

#43154
BansheeOwnage

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 290 messages

IsaacShep wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

IT is super-likely too.

In what sense? Bioware will release DLC that has Shep waking up from his nap and going to fight the Reapers?

I think IT being their intention is super-likely, and it would make sense for a DLC to confirm that. That's secondary speculation though.

#43155
shepskisaac

shepskisaac
  • Members
  • 16 374 messages

SwobyJ wrote...

I actually think this is possible

Based on what? The DLC period that will be over by March/April and we still have Omega and Citadel DLC to be released? The fact that EA spent millions on EC and delayed paid DLC just to expand on what's a "fake ending"? Seriously guys.

#43156
BatmanTurian

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

IsaacShep wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I actually think this is possible

Based on what? The DLC period that will be over by March/April and we still have Omega and Citadel DLC to be released? The fact that EA spent millions on EC and delayed paid DLC just to expand on what's a "fake ending"? Seriously guys.


Seriously, what? Omega's going to be huge. We don't know what will be in it or the Citadel and we know next to nothing about ME4 or a bridge DLC that they might create for it.

Also, "fake ending" implies you don't understand what we're talking about.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 04 novembre 2012 - 12:03 .


#43157
BansheeOwnage

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 290 messages

IsaacShep wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I actually think this is possible

Based on what? The DLC period that will be over by March/April and we still have Omega and Citadel DLC to be released? The fact that EA spent millions on EC and delayed paid DLC just to expand on what's a "fake ending"? Seriously guys.

Nothing's fake, like Batman already said. It's all really important. That's like saying they should skip the Geth Consensus mission because its "fake". Or Overlord, or Leviathan. Lol.

#43158
shepskisaac

shepskisaac
  • Members
  • 16 374 messages

BatmanTurian wrote...

Also, "fake ending" implies you don't understand what we're talking about.

ITers always say that. "If you disagree then you don't understand". Don't understand what exactly?

#43159
BansheeOwnage

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 290 messages

BatmanTurian wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

No, we're not. Spark isn't speaking literally. (It's funny because everyone views things in storytelling too literally.) Spark meant humans are essentially the current forerunners, because the forerunners are dead and humans are the inheritors of all they left behind.


Oh, I found that confusing. Cortana says the same thing in Halo Legends, that humans were composed of the DNA of the forerunners. The ARK implies this as does the fact that Forerunner tech responds to human DNA. Maybe they retconned it.

I don't remember that in Legends, but Legends is something that, if there are mistakes, it defaults to game lore, as that is the highest form. The forefunners engineers their tech to respond to humans, because they were slated as the inheritors.

#43160
BatmanTurian

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

IsaacShep wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Also, "fake ending" implies you don't understand what we're talking about.

ITers always say that. "If you disagree then you don't understand". Don't understand what exactly?


You fundamentally don't understand that just because there might be illusory elements doesn't mean the ending is irrelevant, much like the Harry Potter series.

#43161
shepskisaac

shepskisaac
  • Members
  • 16 374 messages

BatmanTurian wrote...

You fundamentally don't understand that just because there might be illusory elements doesn't mean the ending is irrelevant, much like the Harry Potter series.

It doesn't matter if the illusion had great message and all. If it was an illusion from Harby's beam, it means that TIM & Reapers are still alive, the war is not over at all and the story hasn't finished. The game had no ending.

#43162
BatmanTurian

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

IsaacShep wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You fundamentally don't understand that just because there might be illusory elements doesn't mean the ending is irrelevant, much like the Harry Potter series.

It doesn't matter if the illusion had great message and all. If it was an illusion from Harby's beam, it means that TIM & Reapers are still alive, the war is not over at all and the story hasn't finished. The game had no ending.


Except the DLC keeps adding to the ending, which means the ending can be changed all the way up to Stargazer.

#43163
shepskisaac

shepskisaac
  • Members
  • 16 374 messages

BatmanTurian wrote...

Except the DLC keeps adding to the ending, which means the ending can be changed all the way up to Stargazer.

Adding non-illusion scenes? When did that happen?

#43164
Guest_SwobyJ_*

Guest_SwobyJ_*
  • Guests

IsaacShep wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I actually think this is possible

Based on what? The DLC period that will be over by March/April and we still have Omega and Citadel DLC to be released? The fact that EA spent millions on EC and delayed paid DLC just to expand on what's a "fake ending"? Seriously guys.


EC is (voice acting aside, but remember many of these actors are likely on contracts for whatever material BIoware creates for them to act in) mostly composed of:
-slides
-scenes that are even known to be cut (things like the Catalyst dialogue was originally cut in order to make things more vague)
-CGI scenes that damn well would take more than a couple months to create

Like Bioware said, it was always planned. The delay is, imo, more likely to be because they had to adjust what was on the EC based on player uproar and feedback, rather than because of the fact of the EC itself.

Where did you read that it took millions to make EC? That sounds like it came outta your ass, tbh.

#43165
Guest_SwobyJ_*

Guest_SwobyJ_*
  • Guests

BansheeOwnage wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I actually think this is possible

Based on what? The DLC period that will be over by March/April and we still have Omega and Citadel DLC to be released? The fact that EA spent millions on EC and delayed paid DLC just to expand on what's a "fake ending"? Seriously guys.

Nothing's fake, like Batman already said. It's all really important. That's like saying they should skip the Geth Consensus mission because its "fake". Or Overlord, or Leviathan. Lol.


Agreed. EC is full of interesting ideas, in fact.

#43166
CanadianGunshy

CanadianGunshy
  • Members
  • 46 messages
A few things are standing out to me at the moment:

First off - the DLCs

The DLCs have been adding new weapons, areas, enemies, for multiplayer.

The Multiplayer game is still pretty much the same (10 Waves and 1 Pickup) with little variety other then a change of venu and what you are shooting at.

The Single Player DLC has been alot (and I mean alot) of anti-IT. Leviathan was basically you getting shipped back to the "beginning" to the race before the reapers that says "Yes, it is about AI vs Synthetics. (No mention of Dark Energy) Yes we wanted to control. Yes we wanted to destroy. Yes it is all done by an AI. It will choose a form to communicate with you... etc etc etc"

The amount of time and resources EA and Bioware have put into defuncting the IT and making the ending they had more player acceptable, they could have funded a new game. What does that tell us?

Either they want the players to be happy so they will buy more ME franchise matierial later on.

OR they are milking the red herring for all it is worth.

The multiplayer orients around promoting classes and "Unique named" characters to the front lines of the Single player campaign. The odd thing is, I have seen this have no effect in the single player campaign except the increase to a number. Why the unique names? They arn't shown on your avatar while playing multiplayer...

My guess (and hope) is that the IT theory is true, and they are aiming to make an ending that involves the results of the multiplayer fanbase. Maybe in a years time we get to see our multiplayer characters assist us on the final push on earth. Maybe it will be squads taking down reapers in a giant online ME Raid to discover the "Truth".

Or maybe the ending is just what they have made it to be... I have high hopes.

#43167
Andromidius

Andromidius
  • Members
  • 2 997 messages

IsaacShep wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Also, "fake ending" implies you don't understand what we're talking about.

ITers always say that. "If you disagree then you don't understand". Don't understand what exactly?


That the EC was in responce to fan outrage, and its purely to shut people up.  And they used it to actually deepen the plot twist, while also giving shallow satisfaction to the masses.

And sorry, but the EC didn't cost millions.  And I'm pretty damn sure it didn't take the entire studio months to complete.  Its a stalling tactic, nothing more.

#43168
Guest_SwobyJ_*

Guest_SwobyJ_*
  • Guests

CanadianGunshy wrote...

A few things are standing out to me at the moment:

First off - the DLCs

The DLCs have been adding new weapons, areas, enemies, for multiplayer.

The Multiplayer game is still pretty much the same (10 Waves and 1 Pickup) with little variety other then a change of venu and what you are shooting at.

The Single Player DLC has been alot (and I mean alot) of anti-IT. Leviathan was basically you getting shipped back to the "beginning" to the race before the reapers that says "Yes, it is about AI vs Synthetics. (No mention of Dark Energy) Yes we wanted to control. Yes we wanted to destroy. Yes it is all done by an AI. It will choose a form to communicate with you... etc etc etc"

The amount of time and resources EA and Bioware have put into defuncting the IT and making the ending they had more player acceptable, they could have funded a new game. What does that tell us?

Either they want the players to be happy so they will buy more ME franchise matierial later on.

OR they are milking the red herring for all it is worth.

The multiplayer orients around promoting classes and "Unique named" characters to the front lines of the Single player campaign. The odd thing is, I have seen this have no effect in the single player campaign except the increase to a number. Why the unique names? They arn't shown on your avatar while playing multiplayer...

My guess (and hope) is that the IT theory is true, and they are aiming to make an ending that involves the results of the multiplayer fanbase. Maybe in a years time we get to see our multiplayer characters assist us on the final push on earth. Maybe it will be squads taking down reapers in a giant online ME Raid to discover the "Truth".

Or maybe the ending is just what they have made it to be... I have high hopes.


Wait.. you think Leviathan is anti-IT?

It was really just Harbinger's origin story, really.

#43169
Andromidius

Andromidius
  • Members
  • 2 997 messages

CanadianGunshy wrote...
The Single Player DLC has been alot (and I mean alot) of anti-IT.


Uh.  No.

Its been very heavily adding to IT.  If you think that Leviathan makes indoctrinating Shepard impossible after we see Shepard get dominated almost instantly in a very similar manner, then I have no idea what to say otherwise.

Edit: Its akin to Lord of the Rings again.  Its like saying the One Ring isn't a corrupting influence, after we see what it did to Golem.

Modifié par Andromidius, 04 novembre 2012 - 12:22 .


#43170
shepskisaac

shepskisaac
  • Members
  • 16 374 messages

SwobyJ wrote...

-scenes that are even known to be cut (things like the Catalyst dialogue was originally cut in order to make things more vague)

None of the EC Catalyst lines were in old version of his conversation from the leaked beta.

SwobyJ wrote...

-CGI scenes that damn well would take more than a couple months to create

No, it's a matter of manpower and resources in most part.

SwobyJ wrote...

Like Bioware said, it was always planned.

Where did they say "we always planned to release epansion to the endings?".

SwobyJ wrote...

Where did you read that it took millions to make EC? That sounds like it came outta your ass, tbh.

Sure, the fact that tens/hundreds of Bioware employees are getting paid by EA during months they spent on creating EC while EC is free and bring no income is totally outta my ass.

#43171
BatmanTurian

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

IsaacShep wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Except the DLC keeps adding to the ending, which means the ending can be changed all the way up to Stargazer.

Adding non-illusion scenes? When did that happen?


See, this is why I say you fundamentally don't understand our point of view, which makes it hard to discuss this with you when you assume things that aren't true.

#43172
Andromidius

Andromidius
  • Members
  • 2 997 messages

IsaacShep wrote...
Sure, the fact that tens/hundreds of Bioware employees are getting paid by EA during months they spent on creating EC while EC is free and bring no income is totally outta my ass.


1/ They are paid regardless, so long as their contract lasts.  Its not commission work.

2/ Multiplayer.

Modifié par Andromidius, 04 novembre 2012 - 12:27 .


#43173
shepskisaac

shepskisaac
  • Members
  • 16 374 messages
[quote]Andromidius wrote...

That the EC was in responce to fan outrage, and its purely to shut people up.[/quote]Yeah hi, by delaying paid DLC they're decreasing the $$$ they will get from it (DLC sales go down as obviously the interest goes down thoroughout months after the game is released), they don't earn anything from EC AND they spent EA's money during that time. What an amazing business plan to release an expansion to a fake ending instead of immediately developing and releasing the real ending that would obviously be 10 time better, right?[/quote]

#43174
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages

IsaacShep wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You fundamentally don't understand that just because there might be illusory elements doesn't mean the ending is irrelevant, much like the Harry Potter series.

It doesn't matter if the illusion had great message and all. If it was an illusion from Harby's beam, it means that TIM & Reapers are still alive, the war is not over at all and the story hasn't finished. The game had no ending.


Yes. That's exactly what we're all saying.

#43175
byne

byne
  • Members
  • 7 813 messages

BleedingUranium wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

You fundamentally don't understand that just because there might be illusory elements doesn't mean the ending is irrelevant, much like the Harry Potter series.

It doesn't matter if the illusion had great message and all. If it was an illusion from Harby's beam, it means that TIM & Reapers are still alive, the war is not over at all and the story hasn't finished. The game had no ending.


Yes. That's exactly what we're all saying.


Thats not what I'm saying. Ending on a cliffhanger is still an ending, whether you like it or not.