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[plfranke]

Man are some people dense. It doesn't surprise me they can't comprehend IT. I was just on a thread where people were angry they didn't have an option to enslave the Geth under the Quarians, and their argument was "Overlord showed it was possible". Was that really what people took from Overlord?

[Rifneno]

plfranke wrote...

Man are some people dense. It doesn't surprise me they can't comprehend IT. I was just on a thread where people were angry they didn't have an option to enslave the Geth under the Quarians, and their argument was "Overlord showed it was possible". Was that really what people took from Overlord?

Hah.  That's pretty good, but my favorite is still the "Why can't we stop Anders from murdering that poor tranquil guy?" on the DA2 boards.

[Home run MF]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

paxxton wrote...

In ME2 Shepard either allows Legion to join his crew or passes it to Cerberus for disassembly. How is it possible then that in ME3 (non-import playthrough) Legion is not only with the geth, but also a stranger to Shepard?

That is not Legion, it's a backup created before Legion meets Shepard.

No it's Legions recovered platform. You cannot simply make a backup of a Geth.

You sure?

Modifié par Home run MF, 04 novembre 2012 - 04:28 .

[Andromidius]

Though the Shadow Broker didn't murder billions of species and turn them into material to create more Shadow Brokers, or experiment on any survivors and genetically mutate them into menial servents.

If anything, the Shadow Broker's organisation is more akin to the Mafia. The Reapers are more akin to **** Germany's darkest elements. The two can't really be compared.

Using the Shadow Broker's resources isn't immoral. Especially if the organisation starts to run more cleanly and starts helping the Galaxy more.

Using the Reapers is immoral. Its not even using their technology - its using them. Its giving them a new job, and forgiving all their evils. Heck, its even validating all the evils they've done as being 'understandble'.

Kill them with fire.

Modifié par Andromidius, 04 novembre 2012 - 04:30 .

[plfranke]

SwobyJ wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Man are some people dense. It doesn't surprise me they can't comprehend IT. I was just on a thread where people were angry they didn't have an option to enslave the Geth under the Quarians, and their argument was "Overlord showed it was possible". Was that really what people took from Overlord?

Yeah. Overlord was all about tampering with the Geth leading to 'issues'.

Like any example of 'Control'.

I mean, TIM uses the example of EDI's EVA body, but doesn't really realize that:

1)It is used in order to Destroy the Reapers. You know, the whole point of all of this.

2)It is being harnessed by an unshackled, constantly self-modifying and (healthily) self-questioning AI, not someone who... wants to Control the Reapers. It's a false argument he's giving you, in order to justify his own choice.

I wouldn't even be surprised if that turns out to have a larger impact to the story than what it currently does. As it stands, it really doesn't fit in the conversation. It's actually a pretty good point, yet Shepard just completely ignores it. One would expect either a response or for Shepard to be visibly contemplating what TIM just said. However, Shepard acts like he didn't say anything. I think in order for control to ever be fully debunked we need some more expansion on that conversation/EDI's Character

[Andromidius]

Leviathan does cause issues, indeed.

But you don't need the Reapers to defend yourselves from them. Maybe technology reverse-engineered from their corpses, or developed to counter Reaper Indoctrination (if it indeed works to prevent Enthrallment). But not Reapers. There's no forgiveness for them.

Edit:  Not to mention Leviathans don't seem to be able to travel through space very effectively.  Quarentine and destruction of any orbs would solve the problem pretty easily.

Modifié par Andromidius, 04 novembre 2012 - 04:36 .

[TheConstantOne]

You know, the entire ending controversy could have been avoided if two small things had been done differently:
1) EDI gives you the possible end choices, not Star Bieber. Easily explainable by Shepard allowing her to interface with the console to assess the Crucible's functions. She already accesses things remotely numerous times in the game.

2) Remove Synthesis as a choice and only have Control or Destroy. The Crucible was built to target and Destroy Reapers but the Illusive Man uploaded a control virus on him after Shepard kills him. Being indoctrinated, TIM couldn't bring himself to use it. But Shepard could upload the virus if he so chose. The catch: the Reapers would only protect and aid humanity.

The endings portrayed in this way would reflect the morality themes of the series perfectly and capture the essence of the player's choices. The Control ending would be Renegade as it reflects a human-centric viewpoint, regardless of whether Shepard shares that viewpoint. In a Renegade universe where the Council was killed, the human Alliance uses the Reapers to enforce order and dominate the other races since they feel that the distrust humanity gained for itself would return soon after the war. Paragon universe Control would lead to an uneasy peace with the Alliance holding the Reapers in defense around their space...for the time being. The ominous air of the Reapers' continued presence is the key atmospheric feel to both Control endings as, again, that feel is always present in a Renegade ending.

Destroy would similarly have its own versions based on the Paragon-Renegade take on the universe that I won't go into. I think my Control elaboration made my point.

Now, I got ALL of the above by only adjusting two things to the ending, and the quality immediately returns to what we expect from the series AND questions are answered. Days like these make me wonder what exactly happened when the ending was written. If there wasn't something additional planned, I'll just be sad

[Bill Casey]

plfranke wrote...

Man are some people dense. It doesn't surprise me they can't comprehend IT. I was just on a thread where people were angry they didn't have an option to enslave the Geth under the Quarians, and their argument was "Overlord showed it was possible". Was that really what people took from Overlord?

bahahahahahahahaha...

[Andromidius]

Yep. Another theme is the idea that the Reapers have stagnated the Galaxy's technological growth. They think they are perfect, and thus don't create anything new. They make it so all species develop along paths they desire, and will kill anyone long before they can possibly rival them.

Only way to break it is to remove the Reapers, and develop along your own path. Its the ultimate goal of the Geth, and should be the goal of everyone. Its even suggested the Salarians did something similar to the Krogan by uplifting them.

[demersel]

Andromidius wrote...

Edit:  Not to mention Leviathans don't seem to be able to travel through space very effectively.  Quarentine and destruction of any orbs would solve the problem pretty easily.

We don't know what levaithans can and can't do. We don't know how many of them there actually are still alive. And we sure don't know that we'll be able to handle them is needed - we don't even know for sure if it is possible to shield from their orbs at all. 
And given that in destroy - the galaxy is really in ruins and isolation with the fleet's heavily crippled and most of them at earth. 

We're not even sure that we can actually kill a reaper to a point that it's part stop indoctrinating everyone around. (cause we don't actually know how are they doing it in the first place)

Modifié par demersel, 04 novembre 2012 - 04:51 .

[Andromidius]

Well it is mentioned that they prefer to use other species to do their work for them, and can control people from vast distances away. Thus suggesting either they don't like travelling, find it difficult, or can't. The latter is unlikely since the Reapers wouldn't have any difficulty finding them.

[Andromidius]

SwobyJ wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Yep. Another theme is the idea that the Reapers have stagnated the Galaxy's technological growth. They think they are perfect, and thus don't create anything new. They make it so all species develop along paths they desire, and will kill anyone long before they can possibly rival them.

Only way to break it is to remove the Reapers, and develop along your own path. Its the ultimate goal of the Geth, and should be the goal of everyone. Its even suggested the Salarians did something similar to the Krogan by uplifting them.

Krogan uplifting wasn't a major problem.

Using the uplifting as a method of Control was necessary against the Rachni.

...but like Control always does, it backfires. It was used BECUASE of Krogan birthrate, instead of to enlighten/assist the krogan into a full member of 'society'. Someone/everyone neglects the negative consequences and they pay for it.

To a degree.  However the point was who knows what the Krogan could have become if they weren't uplifted?

Same with the Yahg, though they will probably do better since they are considerably more intelligent then the average Krogan and are more likely to cooperate with each other.  And plot behind each other's backs to take charge.

[Bill Casey]

SwobyJ wrote...

"Believe it." "You feel it?"

God I hate Jacob.

However, talking to him at the hospital makes me wish we had a Crucible level/DLC, where we get to witness our Crucible-related war assets so far, a plot regarding the project, and certain reveals about the thing

Jacob: "That project is crazy, freaking huge. And all these brilliant minds are working night and day trying to figure it out. I wish you could see them, heads down, piecing it together. It's something to see."

Modifié par Bill Casey, 04 novembre 2012 - 04:53 .

[Rifneno]

SwobyJ wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Leviathan does cause issues, indeed.

But you don't need the Reapers to defend yourselves from them. Maybe technology reverse-engineered from their corpses, or developed to counter Reaper Indoctrination (if it indeed works to prevent Enthrallment). But not Reapers. There's no forgiveness for them.

Edit:  Not to mention Leviathans don't seem to be able to travel through space very effectively.  Quarentine and destruction of any orbs would solve the problem pretty easily.

Exactly.

Reaper tech is still.. just tech.

Doesn't mean we should EVER adapt it as-they-stand.

But reverse engineering? Incorporating some general ideas about tech into our own? No problem. We see many positive examples of this in the major storyline and in the War Asset dialogue.

In fact, reverse engineering is one of the big things to get this galaxy to break the (tech) cycle itself. We'd be truly making it on our own then, instead of passively accepting Reaper tech, or thinking it is somehow sacred it in itself. (TIM is viewing the Reapers with awe by Thessia/Cerb-Base, thinking they're worthy of preservation and control.)

I generally lean towards destroying Reaper tech.  The risks of study are too high.  Indoctrination of course, but there's also this.

Shepard: What is it about the Collectors’ modifications that bothers you so much?

Mordin: Disrupts sociotechnological balance! All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming…compensating for limitations. Can’t carry a load, so invent wheel. Can’t catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way, too. Advancement before culture is ready…disastrous. Saw it with Krogan. Uplifted by salarians. Disastrous. Our fault.

Shepard: You blame the Salarians for what the Krogan did?

Mordin: Yes! Like giving nuclear weapons to cavemen. Krogan unprepared for spaceflight, technological advancement. Krogan could have evolved alone. Worked out aggression, been ready to use new tech responsibly. Instead Salarians came, disrupted Krogan culture, used Krogan as blunt instrument against Rachni. Short-sighted. Foolish.

[Andromidius]

You'd have thought the Salarians would have planned better. Like only letting Krogan males off Tuchunka and not letting them have their own spaceships. Would certainly keep the population in check, and stop them spreading all across the Galaxy.

But hey.