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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#43426
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plfranke wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

plfranke wrote...

@Bleeding
Romance with Jack/Thane/Jacob
Priority Earth
Omega and Leviathan not being on disk
Intro of the game
All side missions


-Oh right, the ME2 romances were very lacking in content compared to the ME1/3 ones. That's actually my biggest, and only real complaint about ME3, it's just been a while since my first playthrough (Miranda).
-Not sure if rushed, or just intentionally creepy...
-Doesn't bother me at all.
-What's wrong with it? It's one of my favourite parts.
-What's wrong with them?

Priority Earth - It's rushed lol.

Omega and Leviathan - If it doesn't bother you that the only hard foreshadowing of the Catalyst is charged $10 and a dlc that Bioware has admitted they they wanted to put on a disk is being charged for half the price of the current game then that's just being a bad consumer.

Intro of the game - Imagine playing that straight from me2 with no knowledge of the books or internet resources. You're just a casual player that really liked mass effect 2 and wanted to get mass effect 3. No trial that Bioware promised, Cerberus is just out of the blue against you, The list goes on.

Side Missions - Facepalm are you serious? You didn't notice how pointless the fetch quests and n7 missions are compared to, say, the loyalty quests for me2?


*COUGH* Tali's face *COUGH*

#43427
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I've been gone for like 2 days and i swear there are like 50 new pages....anything interesting happen in them?

#43428
Simon_Says

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paxxton wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

plfranke wrote...
Omega and Leviathan - If it doesn't bother you that the only hard foreshadowing of the Catalyst is charged $10 and a dlc that Bioware has admitted they they wanted to put on a disk is being charged for half the price of the current game then that's just being a bad consumer.

You don't need an exposition for the Catalyst to make the story good. It's additional content for those who want it.

I've said it a few times but I'll repeat it again. Vendetta foreshadows the Catalyst on Thessia in the main game.


And yet this is foreshadowed near the end of the campaign, when it should have been done much, much sooner. And although the characters did seek the Catalyst throughout ME3, that wasn't the primary focus of the plot (uniting the galaxy was). So the foreshadowing, and the twist afterward, fell flat. I haven't played Leviathan yet, but the point stands that without that optional content, the Catalyst character is an apropos of nothing without its scene being some sort of battle between an antagonist (Caty) and protagonist (Shep).

Except in the literal interpretations there is no battle, Shepard has effectively won already. Ergo the Catalyst is a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere, and therefore a problem.

The whole problem with ME3’s ending and what the Catalyst’s place in it is story structure. Let me explain


See Sovereign's reveal to see how it's supposed to be done. Throughout ME1, Saren was played to be the Big Bad of the plot. While he serves higher masters, they're not present in the plot and therefore not relevant yet. Sovereign was just a flagship, an object with no central importance to the plot. Except, just before the final act begins (Illos, Citadel), we get the twist and revelation that Sovereign was actually the Big Bad of this plot, not Saren (the Dragon). This revelation sets the stage and stakes for the final act: Stop Sovereign, stop the invasion.

So when you race to Illos, there's that sense of urgency to the proceedings. You're playing through the climax of the story, and when you achieve your goal there's a sense of accomplishment. The reveal wasn't confusing, and it didn't feel out of place, as the Catalyst is. The plot made its turns in the right places. ME3's finale, however, runs into dead ends.

See, at the end of Cronos, we get the revelation that *gasp* the Citadel is the Catalyst. Fair enough. We know the stage for the final battle, we know the stakes. Plug the Crucible, turn it on, save the universe. Great. We're on our way to the final showdown, where the primary conflict of the setting (Shep vs. Reapers) will be resolved.

The act plays out, Priority: Earth, the Beam Run, the Beam Shuffle, etc. Then we get a final showdown: Shepard vs Tim. Now, this could have been great. TIM was a major antagonist and was effectively the face of everything Shepard was fighting against, even more so than Harbinger. So what can we do with TIM? Have a big dialogue piece in front of the Crucible's/Citadel's controls to decide the fate of humanity, and the galaxy in general? Great! Let's go for it!

TIM dies, the Crucible docks, but... nothing happens. It was a false climax. Fair enough, a climax can still happen. There's still a Crucible, there are still reapers. The conflict still exists as does the means to resolve it. Let's get to the final fight. But there isn't one.

In the eyes of the plot Shepard has won, somehow. There is no final conflict against the source of conflict. There is no failure state. There is only a confusing, meaningless choice of victory conditions. But this choice follows new revelations, courtesy of the Catalyst. Now revelations at the end of the story can be effective. See: The Usual Suspects. But such revelations still set the stage of the plot, and set the stakes, just retroactively.

However, there's still the choice after ME3's last revelation. So it's not supposed to be a retroactive device. You're supposed to take these revelations and move forward with them. But there's no possible fail state. New stakes, but no new climax to go with. The story just ends. And thus, no sense of achievement, resolution, or closure. We get an anticlimax. A non-ending.

Hell, if the game ended with Shepard passing out next to Anderson, that would have made more sense. It would be infuriating and nihilistic, but it would have been a finale. A bold one that demanded respect. But the Catalyst bungles everything up by literally stopping the plot, confusing it, and leaving it hanging.

That the Catalyst doesn’t make any lick of sense considering what’s been established in the series is just icing on the cake. So yeah, the Catalyst was foreshadowed. Doesn’t mean it didn’t screw up the game.

#43429
Humakt83

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Guess who is watching you defeat Human Reaper?

Illusive Man

#43430
Simon_Says

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Humakt83 wrote...

Guess who is watching you defeat Human Reaper?

Illusive Man

It was a well known bug a looong time ago.

#43431
Big_Boss9

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Well said, Simon. I've missed your walls of text!

#43432
demersel

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I know, right! Not to mention, that Illusive Man is on the normandy the whole game along with his office.

#43433
BatmanTurian

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TSA_383 wrote...

It's a bit sad when the ending to a game is so bad it generates this much discussion...
http://social.biowar...ndex/14795358/1


Honestly, that's the ending I wanted and expected, but I can live with IT. This is really for everyone who thinks the endings are literal.

EDIT: oh god it's beautiful. :crying:

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 04 novembre 2012 - 07:39 .


#43434
Guest_starlitegirlx_*

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plfranke wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

plfranke wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

plfranke wrote...

@Bleeding
Romance with Jack/Thane/Jacob
Priority Earth
Omega and Leviathan not being on disk
Intro of the game
All side missions


-Oh right, the ME2 romances were very lacking in content compared to the ME1/3 ones. That's actually my biggest, and only real complaint about ME3, it's just been a while since my first playthrough (Miranda).
-Not sure if rushed, or just intentionally creepy...
-Doesn't bother me at all.
-What's wrong with it? It's one of my favourite parts.
-What's wrong with them?

Priority Earth - It's rushed lol.

Omega and Leviathan - If it doesn't bother you that the only hard foreshadowing of the Catalyst is charged $10 and a dlc that Bioware has admitted they they wanted to put on a disk is being charged for half the price of the current game then that's just being a bad consumer.

Intro of the game - Imagine playing that straight from me2 with no knowledge of the books or internet resources. You're just a casual player that really liked mass effect 2 and wanted to get mass effect 3. No trial that Bioware promised, Cerberus is just out of the blue against you, The list goes on.

Side Missions - Facepalm are you serious? You didn't notice how pointless the fetch quests and n7 missions are compared to, say, the loyalty quests for me2?


I played straight from ME2 to ME3 with no outside information, but I never doubted that cerberus was out of the blue against me. I always saw myself as a tool that was brought back to be used to serve cerberus' agenda. I loved screwing Tim at the end just for that. No gratitude for bringing me back. Essentially I was a prisoner, along with deemed delusional by the ones I saved and helped and tried to warn. Simply put, I became a pawn and always knew there was an agenda with Tim. Never doubted it and hated that shepard's conversation options tended toward trusting Tim.

There should have been different conversation options if you knew of cerberus via side missions in ME1 but that might have given it away to players that Tim was evil. I still cringe when shepard says "I'll contact him to tell him to stay out of it." And every character that this reply is made to says don't, he'd lie. So BW turned my shepard into a toolish idiot for ME2 implying he/she trusts him, and now the VS looks pretty smart except for the fact they neglect to realize which is nobody else is doing anything to stop the attacks. So there were no other options. But why would anyone trust Tim? I still think he was connected to the collector ship attack that manipulated shepard into that situation and it's clear if you blow up the base that he think Shepard owes him when it was pure audacity for him to even bring shepard back to life just to control him/her. In fact, I have no doubt that the opening of ME2 alludes to his plan to get shepard though he couldn't be certain that he/she would be in space and not in a pod. I just find it way to coincidental. He wants Shepard on his side. Collectors attack. He gets shepard on his side.

Can you see where players who were completely pro cerberus, kept the collector base and told TIM in the final dialogue option in response to "We need each other", "Yes, we do" would be thrown off though?


Yes and no. Yes because they believed he was good, which proved to not be the truth. No, because I think it's actually an example of paying attention to what is happening in the game as well as playing the game. Really, what is the logic behind trusting Tim to such dangerous tech? Also, you came to destroy the base. This is version 1.0 of changing the options at the end. Version 2.0 is ME3. If you came to destroy it, and you know destroying it definitely serves as a crippling blow whereas saving it helps whom? He won't be sharing with the Alliance or Council. He states so much in one of the QEC meetings with him. He hoards. He hides. He is ILLUSIVE. He does not represent trust. He does not represent good. He has an agenda. So if it's a shock, then those players should have been the ones least likely to choose anything but destroy. They already saw what not choosing destroy does. Hell, the not destroy option of ME2 becomes proof as to why one has to choose the destroy option in ME3. Sanctuary then becomes a parallel of what happens when you do not choose destroy since Sanctuary is a form of harvesting only at Tim's and Miranda's father's hands.

You are shown evidence to not trust Tim and you choose to trust the most dangerous tech known to him? And to save the base despite he clearly has an agenda that is yet unknown, but still, it's there.

There is in game evidence or warnings about him - You have two victims of cerberus (Tali and Jack) telling you what he is. If you played any of the cerberus side missions in ME1, you know there Tim is not on the side of good and will do whatever it takes to get what he wants. In the game, even if you never crossed cerberus' path, Garrus brings it up first thing as well. It comes from a few different sources. Even Gabby, Donnelly, Chakwas, and Jeff are basically with them only because they either were following shepard or wanted to be able to do their job (for Jeff that was flying - he was grounded). They were there to take on the threat, which was the logic behind Shepard starying. If you Answer the first meeting with Tim with paragon answers, you see it is all predicated upon proof that the coloniest are being abducted and it needs to be stopped with further implications that the reapers may be connected and that it might be much larger than just some colonies here and there. So right from the start, the player, if paying attention should realize why shepard stays has nothing to do with trusting Tim, whom happens to put them in danger with the collector base mission AND the reaper IFF given the team went dark and he didn't want to risk anymore resources on it.

While it seems like it might make sense to keep the technology, you have to consider who is going to be using it. Again, NOTHING about Tim or Cerberus has ever shown Tim to be truly on the side of humans. Nor has he proved to be trustworthy. The fact that he plants all sorts of listening devices on the ship shows it. The person who does that is controlling. Controlling people tend to be dangerous. There are plenty of clues to the player that trusting Tim with the tech is a bad idea similarly to how IT is done in ME3 but not quite nearly as blatant and constant. It's there in ME2 but after initial remarks from certain characters, it's sidelined. I think ME2 might have been a prerequisite to ME3 IT however the way they were going to work IT into ME3 ending wise might have been different since there was the dark energy path that was eliminated.

#43435
AxStapleton

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BatmanTurian wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

It's a bit sad when the ending to a game is so bad it generates this much discussion...
http://social.biowar...ndex/14795358/1


Honestly, that's the ending I wanted and expected, but I can live with IT. This is really for everyone who thinks the endings are literal.

EDIT: oh god it's beautiful. :crying:


Its well done for someone with very limited resources. Shame I can't make use of it on my 360.

#43436
Davik Kang

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Any MP players got tips for when you try to solo, and get the objective where you have to deactivate 4 signal boosters / devices etc.? It always gets me killed. If I try to clear the room out, more will come by the time I start disabling. If I try to draw the enemies away, they just stay there anyway. Any advice?

#43437
Big_Boss9

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Davik Kang wrote...

Any MP players got tips for when you try to solo, and get the objective where you have to deactivate 4 signal boosters / devices etc.? It always gets me killed. If I try to clear the room out, more will come by the time I start disabling. If I try to draw the enemies away, they just stay there anyway. Any advice?

Killing them will do you no good because they'll keep respawning, although if it's just a few mooks kill them quickly and begin disabling. If it's a lot of mobs, kite them around the map away from the objective(s). If they didn't move, you didn't clear enough distance between yourself and them. Trust me, it does work. To be fair, it's more difficult to do on smaller maps like Glacier, but it's definitely doable.

EDIT: What character/loadout are you using to solo?

Modifié par Big_Boss9, 04 novembre 2012 - 07:55 .


#43438
BatmanTurian

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Davik Kang wrote...

Any MP players got tips for when you try to solo, and get the objective where you have to deactivate 4 signal boosters / devices etc.? It always gets me killed. If I try to clear the room out, more will come by the time I start disabling. If I try to draw the enemies away, they just stay there anyway. Any advice?


I use a quarian Engineer and let my pet distract the baddies somewhere far away.

#43439
BatmanTurian

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AxStapleton wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

It's a bit sad when the ending to a game is so bad it generates this much discussion...
http://social.biowar...ndex/14795358/1


Honestly, that's the ending I wanted and expected, but I can live with IT. This is really for everyone who thinks the endings are literal.

EDIT: oh god it's beautiful. :crying:


Its well done for someone with very limited resources. Shame I can't make use of it on my 360.

Me neither, but who knows maybe it might get enough support that it might get used. There is precedent of game companies taking mod ideas and then implementing them in their own way such as Oblivion, Skyrim, and minecraft off the top of my head.

#43440
BansheeOwnage

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Big_Boss9 wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Any MP players got tips for when you try to solo, and get the objective where you have to deactivate 4 signal boosters / devices etc.? It always gets me killed. If I try to clear the room out, more will come by the time I start disabling. If I try to draw the enemies away, they just stay there anyway. Any advice?

Killing them will do you no good because they'll keep respawning, although if it's just a few mooks kill them quickly and begin disabling. If it's a lot of mobs, kite them around the map away from the objective(s). If they didn't move, you didn't clear enough distance between yourself and them. Trust me, it does work. To be fair, it's more difficult to do on smaller maps like Glacier, but it's definitely doable.

EDIT: What character/loadout are you using to solo?

This, or be an Infiltrator or someone with many shields.

Edit: Grenades. Grenades are awesome.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 04 novembre 2012 - 07:59 .


#43441
BansheeOwnage

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Humakt83 wrote...

Guess who is watching you defeat Human Reaper?

Illusive Man

OMG end of ME2 is an alternate reality!

#43442
Davik Kang

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Big_Boss9 wrote...
... If it's a lot of mobs, kite them around the map away from the objective(s). If they didn't move, you didn't clear enough distance between yourself and them. Trust me, it does work....
EDIT: What character/loadout are you using to solo?

Ok thank you very much, I need to practice this then.  You only have around 4 mins or so and previously when I tried to lead them away, they don't come, even when I try to lead them away for 2 minutes.  I'll need to practice doing his effectively.

I use a Human Infiltrator (she's like my 'main' character).  So I have invisibility with max. duration, which allows me to disable an objective w/o getting killed, but only if I can reach the objective first w/o being seen.  If an objective appears where enemies are already based, invisibility just won't cut it.

#43443
BansheeOwnage

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Davik Kang wrote...

Big_Boss9 wrote...
... If it's a lot of mobs, kite them around the map away from the objective(s). If they didn't move, you didn't clear enough distance between yourself and them. Trust me, it does work....
EDIT: What character/loadout are you using to solo?

Ok thank you very much, I need to practice this then.  You only have around 4 mins or so and previously when I tried to lead them away, they don't come, even when I try to lead them away for 2 minutes.  I'll need to practice doing his effectively.

I use a Human Infiltrator (she's like my 'main' character).  So I have invisibility with max. duration, which allows me to disable an objective w/o getting killed, but only if I can reach the objective first w/o being seen.  If an objective appears where enemies are already based, invisibility just won't cut it.

Yes, Cloak upgraded for duration will grant you very close to 10s of invisibility, and it takes exactly 10s to disable an objective. It usually works even if there are enemies near it. Just remember, melee units don't really care for Cloak. Which faction are you fighting?

#43444
Guest_starlitegirlx_*

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BatmanTurian wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

It's a bit sad when the ending to a game is so bad it generates this much discussion...
http://social.biowar...ndex/14795358/1


Honestly, that's the ending I wanted and expected, but I can live with IT. This is really for everyone who thinks the endings are literal.

EDIT: oh god it's beautiful. :crying:


Impressively well done.

#43445
Eryri

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Simon_Says wrote...

snip...

However, there's still the choice after ME3's last revelation. So it's not supposed to be a retroactive device. You're supposed to take these revelations and move forward with them. But there's no possible fail state. New stakes, but no new climax to go with. The story just ends. And thus, no sense of achievement, resolution, or closure. We get an anticlimax. A non-ending.

Hell, if the game ended with Shepard passing out next to Anderson, that would have made more sense. It would be infuriating and nihilistic, but it would have been a finale. A bold one that demanded respect. But the Catalyst bungles everything up by literally stopping the plot, confusing it, and leaving it hanging.

That the Catalyst doesn’t make any lick of sense considering what’s been established in the series is just icing on the cake. So yeah, the Catalyst was foreshadowed. Doesn’t mean it didn’t screw up the game.


QFT. If the literal endings are to be left as they stand, then they have left us all in a permanent state of Boss Battle Blue Balls. 

#43446
Davik Kang

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BansheeOwnage wrote...
Yes, Cloak upgraded for duration will grant you very close to 10s of invisibility, and it takes exactly 10s to disable an objective. It usually works even if there are enemies near it. Just remember, melee units don't really care for Cloak. Which faction are you fighting?

Atm Cerberus but I'm going round against each faction.  If I get the disable thing on wave 6 or 10, and there are bad guys near the device already, invisibility isn't useful, because I'll need to use it to get there without them seeing me, and it runs out before I'm done, meaning any melee soldier nearby knocks me out the way.

I'm finding it frustrating because it's making the solo mode a lucky dip for me at the moment.  If I don;t get dsiable on 6 or 10 I'm ok (I don't extract every tine but I'm getting better) but the disable objective means I just have to hope that the objects spawn away from the current mob.  I will try leading them away like BigBoss said if I can.

#43447
spotlessvoid

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I don't understand the one who commented that this mod had restored their faith in the series. Uh, Bioware didn't make that.

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 04 novembre 2012 - 08:07 .


#43448
Eryri

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BatmanTurian wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

It's a bit sad when the ending to a game is so bad it generates this much discussion...
http://social.biowar...ndex/14795358/1


Honestly, that's the ending I wanted and expected, but I can live with IT. This is really for everyone who thinks the endings are literal.

EDIT: oh god it's beautiful. :crying:


Its well done for someone with very limited resources. Shame I can't make use of it on my 360.

Me neither, but who knows maybe it might get enough support that it might get used. There is precedent of game companies taking mod ideas and then implementing them in their own way such as Oblivion, Skyrim, and minecraft off the top of my head.


We can but hope. I still cling to the belief that Bioware are going to pull something magnificent out of their hats, but if not then something like this will do. If I'm honest, a happy ending would allow me to overlook a multitude of plot holes.

Just so long as we get a crew and LI reunion - a proper one, not one where Shep expires in Liara's arms or some crap like that.

Modifié par Eryri, 04 novembre 2012 - 08:10 .


#43449
Davik Kang

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Eryri wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...
 But there's no possible fail state. New stakes, but no new climax to go with. The story just ends. And thus, no sense of achievement, resolution, or closure. We get an anticlimax. A non-ending.

QFT. If the literal endings are to be left as they stand, then they have left us all in a permanent state of Boss Battle Blue Balls. 

I have to say I thought the ending, as it was, was a pretty awesome climax.  I admit I'm pretty sad that 99% of players on BSN disagree.  

It shouldn't matter really - if you like the game who cares what others think - but I gotta say, I thought the ending was so masterfully thought-out and executed that I am really disappointed no-one else thinks so, especially as there are a lot of very bright and reasonable people on these forums.  I really thought when I registered here there'd be a least a sizeable minority who thought the ending was really great.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 04 novembre 2012 - 08:10 .


#43450
BansheeOwnage

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spotlessvoid wrote...

I don't understand the one who commented that this mod had restored their faith in the series. Uh, Bioware didn't make that.

Haha what the hell?

I saw the mod yesterday, but forgot to post it here. It seems like the low EMS ending is much cooler than the high EMS ending... What?

My favourite part is the consistency. You destroy the reapers like you were always going to. Posted Image

I'm on top!

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 04 novembre 2012 - 08:10 .