Aller au contenu

Photo

Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

  • Ce sujet est fermé Ce sujet est fermé
80611 réponses à ce sujet

#43451
Raistlin Majare 1992
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:14

Raistlin Majare 1992
  • Members
  • 2 101 messages

spotlessvoid wrote...

I don't understand the one who commented that this mod had restored their faith in the series. Uh, Bioware didn't make that.


And it is changing the endings.

No offense meant to the one who made the mod, it is nice idea and it is quite well made, but...

Okay this is going to sound a bit weird. I write fan fiction as you may know in here, but as i have said i never change the events as they were showed in the media I base my fan fiction upon. I may show my idea of what happened after the original ending or fill in holes left behind by the original story, but I never change what was shown.

Which is why I wont download this mod. IT explains the ending, it dosent change it.

#43452
MaximizedAction
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:15

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

Eryri wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...
 But there's no possible fail state. New stakes, but no new climax to go with. The story just ends. And thus, no sense of achievement, resolution, or closure. We get an anticlimax. A non-ending.

QFT. If the literal endings are to be left as they stand, then they have left us all in a permanent state of Boss Battle Blue Balls. 



Boss Battle Blue Balls.

Oh how I wanted to use this to discribe my feeling about the ending ever since March. Though folks might find that offense. Oh well, now it's out there. And of course, I agree.

#43453
BansheeOwnage
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:16

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 290 messages

Davik Kang wrote...
I have to say I thought the ending, as it was, was a pretty awesome climax.  I admit I'm pretty sad that 99% of players on BSN disagree.  

It shouldn't matter really - if you like the game who cares what others think - but I gotta say, I thought the ending was so masterfully thought-out and executed that I am really disappointed no-one else thinks so, especially as there are a lot of very bright and reasonable people on these forums.  I really thought when I registered here there'd be a least a sizeable minority who thought the ending was really great.

That's because those bright and reasonable people recognize how bad the literal ending is on multiple levels. It is beyond bad. Sorry.

#43454
spotlessvoid
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:17

spotlessvoid
  • Members
  • 3 497 messages
But there isn't, even amongst those who defend it. Even those of us who liked the concept of the ending mostly really dislike the execution. (I can hear you grinding your teeth Bill) I think when you want to do an ambiguous/twist ending the face value interpretation should at least make some semblance of sense on the surface.

#43455
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:17

Guest_starlitegirlx_*
  • Guests

Simon_Says wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

plfranke wrote...
Omega and Leviathan - If it doesn't bother you that the only hard foreshadowing of the Catalyst is charged $10 and a dlc that Bioware has admitted they they wanted to put on a disk is being charged for half the price of the current game then that's just being a bad consumer.

You don't need an exposition for the Catalyst to make the story good. It's additional content for those who want it.

I've said it a few times but I'll repeat it again. Vendetta foreshadows the Catalyst on Thessia in the main game.


And yet this is foreshadowed near the end of the campaign, when it should have been done much, much sooner. And although the characters did seek the Catalyst throughout ME3, that wasn't the primary focus of the plot (uniting the galaxy was). So the foreshadowing, and the twist afterward, fell flat. I haven't played Leviathan yet, but the point stands that without that optional content, the Catalyst character is an apropos of nothing without its scene being some sort of battle between an antagonist (Caty) and protagonist (Shep).

Except in the literal interpretations there is no battle, Shepard has effectively won already. Ergo the Catalyst is a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere, and therefore a problem.

The whole problem with ME3’s ending and what the Catalyst’s place in it is story structure. Let me explain


See Sovereign's reveal to see how it's supposed to be done. Throughout ME1, Saren was played to be the Big Bad of the plot. While he serves higher masters, they're not present in the plot and therefore not relevant yet. Sovereign was just a flagship, an object with no central importance to the plot. Except, just before the final act begins (Illos, Citadel), we get the twist and revelation that Sovereign was actually the Big Bad of this plot, not Saren (the Dragon). This revelation sets the stage and stakes for the final act: Stop Sovereign, stop the invasion.

So when you race to Illos, there's that sense of urgency to the proceedings. You're playing through the climax of the story, and when you achieve your goal there's a sense of accomplishment. The reveal wasn't confusing, and it didn't feel out of place, as the Catalyst is. The plot made its turns in the right places. ME3's finale, however, runs into dead ends.

See, at the end of Cronos, we get the revelation that *gasp* the Citadel is the Catalyst. Fair enough. We know the stage for the final battle, we know the stakes. Plug the Crucible, turn it on, save the universe. Great. We're on our way to the final showdown, where the primary conflict of the setting (Shep vs. Reapers) will be resolved.

The act plays out, Priority: Earth, the Beam Run, the Beam Shuffle, etc. Then we get a final showdown: Shepard vs Tim. Now, this could have been great. TIM was a major antagonist and was effectively the face of everything Shepard was fighting against, even more so than Harbinger. So what can we do with TIM? Have a big dialogue piece in front of the Crucible's/Citadel's controls to decide the fate of humanity, and the galaxy in general? Great! Let's go for it!

TIM dies, the Crucible docks, but... nothing happens. It was a false climax. Fair enough, a climax can still happen. There's still a Crucible, there are still reapers. The conflict still exists as does the means to resolve it. Let's get to the final fight. But there isn't one.

In the eyes of the plot Shepard has won, somehow. There is no final conflict against the source of conflict. There is no failure state. There is only a confusing, meaningless choice of victory conditions. But this choice follows new revelations, courtesy of the Catalyst. Now revelations at the end of the story can be effective. See: The Usual Suspects. But such revelations still set the stage of the plot, and set the stakes, just retroactively.

However, there's still the choice after ME3's last revelation. So it's not supposed to be a retroactive device. You're supposed to take these revelations and move forward with them. But there's no possible fail state. New stakes, but no new climax to go with. The story just ends. And thus, no sense of achievement, resolution, or closure. We get an anticlimax. A non-ending.

Hell, if the game ended with Shepard passing out next to Anderson, that would have made more sense. It would be infuriating and nihilistic, but it would have been a finale. A bold one that demanded respect. But the Catalyst bungles everything up by literally stopping the plot, confusing it, and leaving it hanging.

That the Catalyst doesn’t make any lick of sense considering what’s been established in the series is just icing on the cake. So yeah, the Catalyst was foreshadowed. Doesn’t mean it didn’t screw up the game.


In ME1, you are really fighting Sovereign. I just played it the other day and in the final battle, I am certain it says "I am Sovereign!" And Saren is dead. You either kill him or he shoots himself. Either way, Saren is dead and Sovereign takes over.

In ME2 you are really fighting Harbinger every time you fight the collectors. Harbinger is in control of the collectors and releases control just before you destroy it (not sure what happens if you don't).

In ME3 you are really fighting who? Harbinger? Another Reaper? Or maybe you are fighting Indoctrination - no enemy needed as it seems to have begun much earlier in the game. You are fighting yourself - the hallucination and the beliefs all connected to events within the game (control represented by quarian/geth battle and Tim, Synthesis represented by genophage cure and Krogan/Salarians via uplifting then genophage and Saren, and finally, destroy representing your original plan and supported by the entire crew of your ship along with hackett, and one would assume every other species).

#43456
BansheeOwnage
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:17

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 290 messages

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I don't understand the one who commented that this mod had restored their faith in the series. Uh, Bioware didn't make that.


And it is changing the endings.

No offense meant to the one who made the mod, it is nice idea and it is quite well made, but...

Okay this is going to sound a bit weird. I write fan fiction as you may know in here, but as i have said i never change the events as they were showed in the media I base my fan fiction upon. I may show my idea of what happened after the original ending or fill in holes left behind by the original story, but I never change what was shown.

Which is why I wont download this mod. IT explains the ending, it dosent change it.



You know, that makes absolutely no difference right? IT explains the end. But if the endings are literal, they deserve to be changed. This guy did a great job. Destroy the reapers.

#43457
BatmanTurian
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:20

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

BansheeOwnage wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I don't understand the one who commented that this mod had restored their faith in the series. Uh, Bioware didn't make that.

Haha what the hell?

I saw the mod yesterday, but forgot to post it here. It seems like the low EMS ending is much cooler than the high EMS ending... What?

My favourite part is the consistency. You destroy the reapers like you were always going to. Posted Image

I'm on top!


Yeah, this was Shepard's original goal and what made sense. Starbinger is the final boss trying to distract you from that goal. People don't understand that Starbinger is effectively a conversation-only final boss. This is why I think ME3's writing is great. Bioware wrote the dialogue so well that the boss defeated a lot of players without these players ever realizing it, if IT is true.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 04 novembre 2012 - 08:24 .

#43458
Eryri
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:21

Eryri
  • Members
  • 1 853 messages

Davik Kang wrote...

I have to say I thought the ending, as it was, was a pretty awesome climax.  I admit I'm pretty sad that 99% of players on BSN disagree.  

It shouldn't matter really - if you like the game who cares what others think - but I gotta say, I thought the ending was so masterfully thought-out and executed that I am really disappointed no-one else thinks so, especially as there are a lot of very bright and reasonable people on these forums.  I really thought when I registered here there'd be a least a sizeable minority who thought the ending was really great.


That's fair enough. I'm glad that you enjoyed it. I wish I had your outlook on them. People like you, DoomesdayDevice and BillCasey are imaginative enough to appreciate the endings as they stand, without any further exposition, and for that I envy you.

I really enjoy discussing the IT and I can appreciate it's cleverness, but I'm hoping that it will eventually lead to a visceral, emotional climax to the story. The first 2 games both did that for me, particularly ME2. The combination of music and action at the climax of that game was hugely enjoyable. I guess I'm just a simple action-movie fan at heart.;)

#43459
Simon_Says
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:22

Simon_Says
  • Members
  • 1 164 messages

Eryri wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

snip...

However, there's still the choice after ME3's last revelation. So it's not supposed to be a retroactive device. You're supposed to take these revelations and move forward with them. But there's no possible fail state. New stakes, but no new climax to go with. The story just ends. And thus, no sense of achievement, resolution, or closure. We get an anticlimax. A non-ending.

Hell, if the game ended with Shepard passing out next to Anderson, that would have made more sense. It would be infuriating and nihilistic, but it would have been a finale. A bold one that demanded respect. But the Catalyst bungles everything up by literally stopping the plot, confusing it, and leaving it hanging.

That the Catalyst doesn’t make any lick of sense considering what’s been established in the series is just icing on the cake. So yeah, the Catalyst was foreshadowed. Doesn’t mean it didn’t screw up the game.


QFT. If the literal endings are to be left as they stand, then they have left us all in a permanent state of Boss Battle Blue Balls.

I had to stop reading for a minute when he brought up the three act structure chart, because, well, I'll let Hulk explain it. But I do agree that boss battles are central to video game design. It's one of those things that are unique to the medium. But I do contend that there was (weak) one here: the TIM confrontation. And with IT, the Catalyst scene would be one as well.

Not boss battles in terms of the shooty gameplay, but one based on dialogue. Because, y'know, they're the other half of the game. Human Revolution demonstrates how dialogue could be and is effective gameplay (including boss battles) and not just a narrative device. Bioware understood this on some level because they implemented systems where investement in the dialogue mechanics allowed you to change the course of or even bypass shooty gameplay bits. Dialogue is gameplay in ME.

My beef is essentially we got a boss, and then we get the setup to a final boss fight that never happens. So yeah, blue balls, but not quite for the reasons that Mr. Thomas says.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 04 novembre 2012 - 08:28 .

#43460
BatmanTurian
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:22

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...
 But there's no possible fail state. New stakes, but no new climax to go with. The story just ends. And thus, no sense of achievement, resolution, or closure. We get an anticlimax. A non-ending.

QFT. If the literal endings are to be left as they stand, then they have left us all in a permanent state of Boss Battle Blue Balls. 



Boss Battle Blue Balls.

Oh how I wanted to use this to discribe my feeling about the ending ever since March. Though folks might find that offense. Oh well, now it's out there. And of course, I agree.

Notch me up on the scoreboard for that too. Perfectly fits the ending as it is now.

#43461
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:24

Guest_SwobyJ_*
  • Guests

spotlessvoid wrote...

But there isn't, even amongst those who defend it. Even those of us who liked the concept of the ending mostly really dislike the execution. (I can hear you grinding your teeth Bill) I think when you want to do an ambiguous/twist ending the face value interpretation should at least make some semblance of sense on the surface.


The ending doesn't need any more..

It's beautiful..

#43462
spotlessvoid
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:24

spotlessvoid
  • Members
  • 3 497 messages
Yeah, considering the challenges in making that mod, he did good. Like he said, it's not his preferred ending, just what he could do with what he had to work with. I was loling at the some of the responses. Tbh, if only literal destroy was available, the breath scene would have been awesome-in concept. You think Shep made the ultimate sacrifice to save the Reapers and then there's an oh **** he's alive moment. Reapers dead and it's an open world


Edit: Oh no, I'm indoctrinated!

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 04 novembre 2012 - 08:32 .

#43463
BatmanTurian
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:26

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

spotlessvoid wrote...

Yeah, considering the challenges in making that mod, he did good. Like he said, it's not his preferred ending, just what he could do with what he had to work with. I was loling at the some of the responses. Tbh, if only literal destroy was available, the breath scene would have been awesome-in concept. You think Shep made the ultimate sacrifice to save the Reapers and then there's an oh **** he's alive moment. Reapers dead and it's an open world


i lol at some of those comments, but at least some of the crazies gave him kudos.

#43464
BansheeOwnage
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:27

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 290 messages

SwobyJ wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

But there isn't, even amongst those who defend it. Even those of us who liked the concept of the ending mostly really dislike the execution. (I can hear you grinding your teeth Bill) I think when you want to do an ambiguous/twist ending the face value interpretation should at least make some semblance of sense on the surface.


The ending doesn't need any more..

It's beautiful..

Don't even start with this...

#43465
BatmanTurian
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:30

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

BansheeOwnage wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

But there isn't, even amongst those who defend it. Even those of us who liked the concept of the ending mostly really dislike the execution. (I can hear you grinding your teeth Bill) I think when you want to do an ambiguous/twist ending the face value interpretation should at least make some semblance of sense on the surface.


The ending doesn't need any more..

It's beautiful..

Don't even start with this...

It needs a bridge to ME4 at least, even if Shep isn't in it or is just some kind of Anderson figure.

#43466
spotlessvoid
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:30

spotlessvoid
  • Members
  • 3 497 messages

BansheeOwnage wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Snip


The ending doesn't need any more..

It's beautiful..

Don't even start with this...

I wish you could see it like I do.

#43467
BansheeOwnage
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:31

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 290 messages

spotlessvoid wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Snip


The ending doesn't need any more..

It's beautiful..

Don't even start with this...

I wish you could see it like I do.

Posted Image Nice one.

#43468
Eryri
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:31

Eryri
  • Members
  • 1 853 messages

BatmanTurian wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Boss Battle Blue Balls.

Oh how I wanted to use this to discribe my feeling about the ending ever since March. Though folks might find that offense. Oh well, now it's out there. And of course, I agree.

Notch me up on the scoreboard for that too. Perfectly fits the ending as it is now.


It seems I'm not the only one. Anyone else finding it hard to get into other games since ME3? I've been trying to get into the Uncharted series. While I can appreciate how superbly well made they are, somehow the adventures of a lovable but aquisitive rogue seem insignificant when I'm still not sure if I've saved the galaxy or not.

#43469
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:32

Guest_SwobyJ_*
  • Guests

spotlessvoid wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Snip


The ending doesn't need any more..

It's beautiful..

Don't even start with this...

I wish you could see it like I do.


:innocent::devil::innocent:

#43470
Simon_Says
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:32

Simon_Says
  • Members
  • 1 164 messages

spotlessvoid wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Snip


The ending doesn't need any more..

It's beautiful..

Don't even start with this...

I wish you could see it like I do.

It's so... perfect.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 04 novembre 2012 - 08:32 .

#43471
Raistlin Majare 1992
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:33

Raistlin Majare 1992
  • Members
  • 2 101 messages

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I don't understand the one who commented that this mod had restored their faith in the series. Uh, Bioware didn't make that.


And it is changing the endings.

No offense meant to the one who made the mod, it is nice idea and it is quite well made, but...

Okay this is going to sound a bit weird. I write fan fiction as you may know in here, but as i have said i never change the events as they were showed in the media I base my fan fiction upon. I may show my idea of what happened after the original ending or fill in holes left behind by the original story, but I never change what was shown.

Which is why I wont download this mod. IT explains the ending, it dosent change it.

You know, that makes absolutely no difference right? IT explains the end. But if the endings are literal, they deserve to be changed. This guy did a great job. Destroy the reapers.


No it does make a difference, at least to me.

The way I see it the moment a fanfiction writer starts changing or cutting out pieces of the original work he is saying the original work was bad, flawed, that he dident like it and that he could have written a better story.

It has always been my golden rule when writing, to never (directly) alter the original scenes. I might add clarity to the events sourrounding the scenes, try and show what happened of the camera if appropiate.

In some cases that may be the truth, some endings do deserve to be changed, but it should not be done lightly (not saying he did it lightly). And yes the litteral ending is bad, really bad, to the point where I might break my own rule of never chnaging the roiginal work to follow up on it.

But as long as IT exists and is not disproven, the endings are not necesarily bad.

#43472
spotlessvoid
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:35

spotlessvoid
  • Members
  • 3 497 messages
I'm surprised nobody pointed out my mistake a few posts ago lol

#43473
Dwailing
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:35

Dwailing
  • Members
  • 4 566 messages

Dwailing wrote...

Huh, I just had a thought about the Destroy ending. Specifically, in relation to something the Catalyst says. Remember he describes the Reapers as being like a 'cleansing fire?' Well, I just noticed that the energy wave from the Crucible in Destroy looks a LOT like a cleansing fire. And we've seen the kid (And eventually Shepard) burning in fire in the dreams. So maybe it's meant to mean fighting fire with fire? :P


I'm curious, did anyone actually see this?

#43474
BansheeOwnage
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:37

BansheeOwnage
  • Members
  • 11 290 messages

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I don't understand the one who commented that this mod had restored their faith in the series. Uh, Bioware didn't make that.


And it is changing the endings.

No offense meant to the one who made the mod, it is nice idea and it is quite well made, but...

Okay this is going to sound a bit weird. I write fan fiction as you may know in here, but as i have said i never change the events as they were showed in the media I base my fan fiction upon. I may show my idea of what happened after the original ending or fill in holes left behind by the original story, but I never change what was shown.

Which is why I wont download this mod. IT explains the ending, it dosent change it.

You know, that makes absolutely no difference right? IT explains the end. But if the endings are literal, they deserve to be changed. This guy did a great job. Destroy the reapers.


No it does make a difference, at least to me.

The way I see it the moment a fanfiction writer starts changing or cutting out pieces of the original work he is saying the original work was bad, flawed, that he dident like it and that he could have written a better story.

It has always been my golden rule when writing, to never (directly) alter the original scenes. I might add clarity to the events sourrounding the scenes, try and show what happened of the camera if appropiate.

In some cases that may be the truth, some endings do deserve to be changed, but it should not be done lightly (not saying he did it lightly). And yes the litteral ending is bad, really bad, to the point where I might break my own rule of never chnaging the roiginal work to follow up on it.

But as long as IT exists and is not disproven, the endings are not necesarily bad.

Still, even with IT, it's not finished. That's not in dispute. So he, like me and so many others 8 months after release, would honestly prefer just some form of a proper ending with proper closure to IT. I've had enough of this, and I just want the story to finish properly even if the stupid starkid is still there.

#43475
BatmanTurian
Posté 04 novembre 2012 - 08:37

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

Eryri wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Boss Battle Blue Balls.

Oh how I wanted to use this to discribe my feeling about the ending ever since March. Though folks might find that offense. Oh well, now it's out there. And of course, I agree.

Notch me up on the scoreboard for that too. Perfectly fits the ending as it is now.


It seems I'm not the only one. Anyone else finding it hard to get into other games since ME3? I've been trying to get into the Uncharted series. While I can appreciate how superbly well made they are, somehow the adventures of a lovable but aquisitive rogue seem insignificant when I'm still not sure if I've saved the galaxy or not.

I play a lot of Assassin's Creed 3 right now. That's distracting me. The multiplayer of ME3 is still fun and I'm still earning stuff. I am having problems going back to skyrim after ME3 actually. I'm wondering if ME3 soured me to even the most basic RPG's. As you can see, not even DA2 did that for me.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 04 novembre 2012 - 08:38 .

Retourner dans Story, Campaign, and Characters


  1. The BioWare Forum
  2. → Mass Effect
  3. → Mass Effect 3
  4. → Story, Campaign, and Characters