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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#43851
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 02:17

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Dark Delta 06 wrote...

Macross wrote...

Fur28 wrote...

@Macross
if he ends up being indoctrinated, bioware will probably put the option to save him


I don't actually have a problem with him being Indoctrinated. I love the guy but if it helps Bioware spin a good yarn then I am totally fine with him being indoctrinated. I also dislike the idea of being able to save someone from Indoctrination. It hasn't really happened before and it's the one part of the Reapers I'd like to remain undeafetable (except for Shepard being able to withstand it, but that's not the same as being cured or saved from it). Indoctrination is pretty much the one real weapon the Reapers have that make the insanely scary. 


Yeah I agree, saving someone from indoctrination should not happen, at least if they are in a advanced state.... Except for Shepard but then again, Shepard has been in contact with lots of indoctrinated agents, prothean beacons, and been in contact with the Reaper Beacon on arrival..


I don't think you can save anyone but yourself from indoctrination. Most are turned to mindless shells as witnessed if you go to the bottom floor on Virmire. You see the Salarians, shells of their former selves and one that is still okay. Rana seemed fine in ME1 AND ME2, but she went on a killing spree in ME3. So it must have started with sovereign. Now I kill her every time in ME1. I think you cannot save someone because it's generally a subtle and slow process and so you cannot tell it is happening until it has happened.

Shepard is undertermined until the player chooses. Also, we have Shiara from ME1 talking about her strength as well as Liara. They set up that shepard's will and strength and mind are stronger than most. Liara in particular talks about how the beacon would have killed someone with a lesser mind. So shepard is capable of surviving indoctrination where most would not be.

#43852
Davik Kang
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 02:27

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masster blaster wrote...
Also when Shepard picks up the toy fighter he/she looks pissed off like something from his/her past he/she saw. The boy mabye, or Shepard is just pissed.

Tbh I think Shepard's pissed because he found a toy plane at the site of Reaper destruction.  Simple implication that Reapers are killing kids now.

It's interesting that indoctrinated subjects may be given similar choices to what we're presented with at the end... I had this idea a while back that the 3 choices are generic choices for how one can deal with any conflict or obstacle - fight it, dominate it, or combine with it (refusing to address the conflict will lead to death).

I thought how this applies not only in military conflict (wipe out a nation, dominate and subjugate it, or make a truce and join forces) but also in nature, whereby a species or virus or whatever will ultimately have to do one of the above if it is not to be made extinct by the enemy.

The Codex is (intentionally) vague about how indoctrination is actual perceived by the victim.  Accounts ferom victims throughout the series also point to mulitple different perceptions.  The Rachni Queen, as one who has surviced the effects, simply says she does not remember what happened once the thralls were forced to sing the same "yellow note".  They just woke up in the present and the war (the Rachni War) was over.

#43853
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 02:29

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masster blaster wrote...

Okay guys I have been thinking how does somebody get fully Indoctrinated? We know what can cause Indoctrination, we know what the signs are, and we know if you install Reaper tech in your body you become a fully Indoctrinated servent. Yet what really causes Idoctrination to take over the mind/body?

Look at Saren we wanted Synthesis in the end it turns out he was Indoctrinate ever since he meet Nazar. Did he have a choice too? He said on Virmire that he didn't have a choice yet he picked Synthesis.

Now look at TIM he knows that Nobody can control the Reapers from his experiance with Saren's brother. He picked Control because he knows that he can't refuse to save humanity, nor can he synthesisfy everyone, yet he can Control the Reapers so that he can use them to help humanity andlet humanity become the apex of evoultion.

Now Kenson is also Indoctrinated, yet she picked refuse.

She couldn't kill the Batarins, nor could she try to Control the Reapers, or Synthesis everyone. She just gave up and would let the Reapers come and wait for the world to end. She saw that their is still hope, yet it was for the Reapers salvation.

Now you have Shepard that is being Indoctrinated through out ME3 or Me1-ME3. Now if you think about it every Indoctrinated person had a chocie. The problem is choice. The Catalyst methods for Indoctrinating Shepard can't work so he creates the end chocies except Destroy. It's Shepard's fail safe, not refuse. Refuse again is Kenson.

Also the Catalyst says Shepard is the first Organic here, yet what about Synthetics? He only said Organics, but Synthetics? Or you can say he is lying because all Indoctrated people had a chocie.

Kenson Refuse/reject
Saren Synthesis
TIM Control

Destroy ?????
Nobody has ever picked Destroy because of what the Catalyst tells them

The way I see it

The Catalyst took on the apperence of anyone inmportant to each Indoctrinated person

TIM's was his lost friends. The catalyst took on the apperence of one of them and tricked TIM to picking Control

Saren was his brother.

And Kenson was Hackett. I say Hackett because they were close friends.

Now for Shepard it's that child because it's Shepard guilt that he/she can't save everyone, but it's not a real child. Going back to the trailer a girl was holding the Alliance fighter in her hands. The same fighter the boy holds. What if the child was the real child Shepard was suppost to see.

Also when Shepard picks up the toy fighter he/she looks pissed off like something from his/her past he/she saw. The boy mabye, or Shepard is just pissed.


When did any of this happen? Outside the game? I didn't know Saren had a brother or that Tim knew him. Tim picked control because that is his course of action with everything. When did kenson pick refuse? All I see is a crazy indoctrinated person who was too stupid to do something about object rho other than use it as a statuethat sends her images. And Saren is already indoctrinated fairly well by the time he is on Virmire. He only had doubts from shepard's discussion with him and his answer to that was to get implanted to further his resolve which seems pretty indoctrinated to me.

But I've never come across anything regarding who they see as the catalyst and am baffled since there is no catalyst until the crucible is built. Tim might have seen one but seems unlikely. In fact, if that is where the hallucination starts then Tim isn't even there. Nor is anderson, and the main clue to that is Shepard bleeds where anderson is shot. How does that kind of 'magic' work except in some kind of nightmare or hallucination?

I'm just totally lost with the info you provided.

#43854
masster blaster
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 02:30

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Hey I also had another idea. Looking back at take back Earth trailer I had a horrible feeling that when Hackett was in space, as well as the Alliance fleet, the Rea pers were already on Earth.

I mean just when Luna base went off line 5 sceonds later the Reapers are on Earth. Hackett's little battle did nothing unless during when Shepard sees the child Hackett is fighting the Reapers in space. Or mabye the Reapers were already on Earth just some where else on Earth. I say this because when UK head quaters got hit funny Coats is in London, reports all over the world starting appering when the Alliance started looking at all news chanels.

#43855
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 02:32

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Davik Kang wrote...

masster blaster wrote...
Also when Shepard picks up the toy fighter he/she looks pissed off like something from his/her past he/she saw. The boy mabye, or Shepard is just pissed.

Tbh I think Shepard's pissed because he found a toy plane at the site of Reaper destruction.  Simple implication that Reapers are killing kids now.

It's interesting that indoctrinated subjects may be given similar choices to what we're presented with at the end... I had this idea a while back that the 3 choices are generic choices for how one can deal with any conflict or obstacle - fight it, dominate it, or combine with it (refusing to address the conflict will lead to death).

I thought how this applies not only in military conflict (wipe out a nation, dominate and subjugate it, or make a truce and join forces) but also in nature, whereby a species or virus or whatever will ultimately have to do one of the above if it is not to be made extinct by the enemy.

The Codex is (intentionally) vague about how indoctrination is actual perceived by the victim.  Accounts ferom victims throughout the series also point to mulitple different perceptions.  The Rachni Queen, as one who has surviced the effects, simply says she does not remember what happened once the thralls were forced to sing the same "yellow note".  They just woke up in the present and the war (the Rachni War) was over.


Where is the toy plane? My shepard never finds one.

#43856
masster blaster
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 02:37

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Starlit you didn't know Saren had a brother. In the comic evoultion Jack Harper (TIM), Saren's Brother, Saren himself, and Jack's friends are in it.

Also I was implying that each Indoctrinated person could be seeing something when making a choice, if the Catalyst/ the Reaper create things each person has seen, and us their memorys against them to Indoctrinate people. AlsoSaren does say he didn't have a chocie, but if he picked Synthesis, not the way we see it at the end then it caused him to become Indoctrinated. Aslo read the comics and books about the ME univiers it helps make more sense about ME3, and it helps provided interesting storys that tie into ME3/ME2.

#43857
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 02:41

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masster blaster wrote...

Hey I also had another idea. Looking back at take back Earth trailer I had a horrible feeling that when Hackett was in space, as well as the Alliance fleet, the Rea pers were already on Earth.

I mean just when Luna base went off line 5 sceonds later the Reapers are on Earth. Hackett's little battle did nothing unless during when Shepard sees the child Hackett is fighting the Reapers in space. Or mabye the Reapers were already on Earth just some where else on Earth. I say this because when UK head quaters got hit funny Coats is in London, reports all over the world starting appering when the Alliance started looking at all news chanels.


At the opening it has already started. They call shepard because I think they lost communications. They know the reapers are coming. Hackett admits he did very little but buy a few fleets time by sacraficing the 2nd fleet I believe. So I think that part is happening when shepard sees the child on the roof. Anderson in the room with the idiots from alliance who are now, suddenly asking for shepard's opinion (which they should have done a hell of a lot sooner, like if you played arrival, way back to when shepard returns to earth) asks why they haven't heard from Hackett. Because communcations were knocked out during reaper arrival.

#43858
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 02:44

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masster blaster wrote...

Starlit you didn't know Saren had a brother. In the comic evoultion Jack Harper (TIM), Saren's Brother, Saren himself, and Jack's friends are in it.

Also I was implying that each Indoctrinated person could be seeing something when making a choice, if the Catalyst/ the Reaper create things each person has seen, and us their memorys against them to Indoctrinate people. AlsoSaren does say he didn't have a chocie, but if he picked Synthesis, not the way we see it at the end then it caused him to become Indoctrinated. Aslo read the comics and books about the ME univiers it helps make more sense about ME3, and it helps provided interesting storys that tie into ME3/ME2.


This **** bugs me. It should all be in game. I don't read comics... ever. That they add this info into a comic is annoying. Heck, I won't even buy DLC unless it looks damn good for IT stuff at this point. All information should be in the game or it should be a free downloadable comic that you get if you have bought the game. At least then you have access to it.

#43859
mrgc
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 03:08

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Dark Delta 06 wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...


I'm hoping for more EDI and, strangely enough, James forced encounters. EDI is interesting and James is just suspicious (especially after Leviathan).


Why do you say James. Is suspicious?
... I may have missed stuff I believe I never took him on a mission and apart from him wanting that weird husk head on the normandy and the scene where he and Shepard are with Ann Bryson I didn't see much of him loool



Hello I hope you don't mind me interrupting the tread ,but i'd like to add a few things about James being suspicious.At first the hummming... I never really thought it was the ship engines because as I recall Tali complained about the Normandy's engines being to quiet to sleep in ME1 and as the second Normandy is much more upgraded than the first one I doubt it would make such a noise. And only James hears it.

Also, to me, it felt that he's personality changed towards the end of the game from being all battle eager to a bit more insecure .( I got that feeling when he did'nt adress my femshep as lola anymore)

#43860
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 03:26

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mrgc wrote...

Dark Delta 06 wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...


I'm hoping for more EDI and, strangely enough, James forced encounters. EDI is interesting and James is just suspicious (especially after Leviathan).


Why do you say James. Is suspicious?
... I may have missed stuff I believe I never took him on a mission and apart from him wanting that weird husk head on the normandy and the scene where he and Shepard are with Ann Bryson I didn't see much of him loool



Hello I hope you don't mind me interrupting the tread ,but i'd like to add a few things about James being suspicious.At first the hummming... I never really thought it was the ship engines because as I recall Tali complained about the Normandy's engines being to quiet to sleep in ME1 and as the second Normandy is much more upgraded than the first one I doubt it would make such a noise. And only James hears it.

Also, to me, it felt that he's personality changed towards the end of the game from being all battle eager to a bit more insecure .( I got that feeling when he did'nt adress my femshep as lola anymore)



If you guided him toward the N7 program and found him in the cargo bay getting the N7 tattoo where he considers you his trainer and then you call him on his BS flirting, I think that would change him. He says when he commits, he commits. Even if you don't have the N7 conversation with him, the game will play his character as if you did.  The end result is he is dedicated, committed and taking things more seriously now. Nothing to do with indoctrination. Insecure comes with the territory. Remember, he did not like the outcome of that mission where he ran it and everyone save him and maybe another soldier died. So naturally he will have insecurities about the N7 program and being able to cut it. He had doubts in the N7 discussion. Those doubts won't evaporate overnight. I'd be more concerned it they did.

Humming does not equal indoctrination. It is just him hearing humming. There is a noticable hum down there. He's new to the normandy since it just pulled out of dry dock to get shepard while most of the rest of the crew (that we talk to before we begin pick ups) appears to have been there for the retrofit. Adams, cortez, traynor ... all there. Cortez might have ignorned the hum as he was used to it by then. The other crew you pick up never goes down there so the only one that it makes sense with would be Vega. But there is a hum. People assume it's one you are not hearing, but it's noisy down there.

So really, there is no evidence to support him being indoctrinated on any level. Plus, when would he have been? Artifact exposure is necessary.

As for the one mentioned earlier regarding him at the lab/house of bryson, I think he was chosen because he's not primary to any other scenes and he is a gauranteed squadmate. Others get their own scenes through recruitment. But he never does so they might have wanted to include him in something so he gets his own scene. Same for EDI but she's logical in that she would be useful in figuring out what happened and correlating data.

#43861
mrgc
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 03:32

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starlitegirlx wrote...

mrgc wrote...

Dark Delta 06 wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...


I'm hoping for more EDI and, strangely enough, James forced encounters. EDI is interesting and James is just suspicious (especially after Leviathan).


Why do you say James. Is suspicious?
... I may have missed stuff I believe I never took him on a mission and apart from him wanting that weird husk head on the normandy and the scene where he and Shepard are with Ann Bryson I didn't see much of him loool



Hello I hope you don't mind me interrupting the tread ,but i'd like to add a few things about James being suspicious.At first the hummming... I never really thought it was the ship engines because as I recall Tali complained about the Normandy's engines being to quiet to sleep in ME1 and as the second Normandy is much more upgraded than the first one I doubt it would make such a noise. And only James hears it.

Also, to me, it felt that he's personality changed towards the end of the game from being all battle eager to a bit more insecure .( I got that feeling when he did'nt adress my femshep as lola anymore)



If you guided him toward the N7 program and found him in the cargo bay getting the N7 tattoo where he considers you his trainer and then you call him on his BS flirting, I think that would change him. He says when he commits, he commits. Even if you don't have the N7 conversation with him, the game will play his character as if you did.  The end result is he is dedicated, committed and taking things more seriously now. Nothing to do with indoctrination. Insecure comes with the territory. Remember, he did not like the outcome of that mission where he ran it and everyone save him and maybe another soldier died. So naturally he will have insecurities about the N7 program and being able to cut it. He had doubts in the N7 discussion. Those doubts won't evaporate overnight. I'd be more concerned it they did.

Humming does not equal indoctrination. It is just him hearing humming. There is a noticable hum down there. He's new to the normandy since it just pulled out of dry dock to get shepard while most of the rest of the crew (that we talk to before we begin pick ups) appears to have been there for the retrofit. Adams, cortez, traynor ... all there. Cortez might have ignorned the hum as he was used to it by then. The other crew you pick up never goes down there so the only one that it makes sense with would be Vega. But there is a hum. People assume it's one you are not hearing, but it's noisy down there.

So really, there is no evidence to support him being indoctrinated on any level. Plus, when would he have been? Artifact exposure is necessary.

As for the one mentioned earlier regarding him at the lab/house of bryson, I think he was chosen because he's not primary to any other scenes and he is a gauranteed squadmate. Others get their own scenes through recruitment. But he never does so they might have wanted to include him in something so he gets his own scene. Same for EDI but she's logical in that she would be useful in figuring out what happened and correlating data.



Oh. Thank you

#43862
byne
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 03:34

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Davik Kang wrote...

masster blaster wrote...
Also when Shepard picks up the toy fighter he/she looks pissed off like something from his/her past he/she saw. The boy mabye, or Shepard is just pissed.


Tbh I think Shepard's pissed because he found a toy plane at the site of Reaper destruction.  Simple implication that Reapers are killing kids now.


Shepard is clearly angry because she didnt have that model in her cabin yet, and the Reapers destroyed it.

Modifié par byne, 05 novembre 2012 - 03:34 .

#43863
Davik Kang
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 03:42

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About this whole James being indoctrinated thing, I read up on his backstory and his ME3 dialogue, and I'm pretty sure he's not indoctrinated.  However, I think the game is hinting that, as the new guy, he is more susceptible to indoctrination than many of the others.  

The thing about humming might be a joke (either by him or by Bioware), but could also mean that he is hearing the call that the others do not.

Javik in particular mocks and admonishes Vega for his gullibility.  This ties in with Javik's conversation with Shepard that you guys have brought up many times.  Javik has become convinced that the only way to stop the Reapers is to become stubbornly bent on their destrouction, and that only.  In other words, he believes that a full comitment to Renegade action is necessary - only a Renegade mindset can end the Reaper threat.  This is why he is unconvinced by a Paragon Shepard's willingness to do what is necessary.

Whether he's right or wrong, we have seen that a Renegade action is required to ultimately destroy the Reapers, meaning that even if a Paragon-minded Shepard can win, it needs to be an open-minded one (one that is willing to allow the death of various synthetics, and to deny any kind of peace agreement with the Reapers, to ensure victory).


starlitegirlx wrote...
Where is the toy plane? My shepard never finds one.

MB was referring to this trailer (I hadn't seen it before either)

#43864
Andromidius
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 03:44

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byne wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

masster blaster wrote...
Also when Shepard picks up the toy fighter he/she looks pissed off like something from his/her past he/she saw. The boy mabye, or Shepard is just pissed.


Tbh I think Shepard's pissed because he found a toy plane at the site of Reaper destruction.  Simple implication that Reapers are killing kids now.


Shepard is clearly angry because she didnt have that model in her cabin yet, and the Reapers destroyed it.


I would be as well.  I mean there's an empty slot on the rack!

...and I'm still miffed that scene in the trailer never even remotely happens in-game.

And Vega isn't indoctrinated.  He's probably undergoing the process though, just like everyone else, and his blunt honesty and forwardness are making the symptoms more apparent.

Modifié par Andromidius, 05 novembre 2012 - 03:47 .

#43865
byne
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 03:53

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Davik Kang wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
Where is the toy plane? My shepard never finds one.

MB was referring to this trailer (I hadn't seen it before either)


>not linking the far superior FemShep version

#43866
Davik Kang
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 03:55

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Andromidius wrote...

byne wrote...
Shepard is clearly angry because she didnt have that model in her cabin yet, and the Reapers destroyed it.

I would be as well.  I mean there's an empty slot on the rack!

I don't have an empty slot!?!?  But I would put the missing Normandy toy on Shepard's desk, next to my missing N7 helment and missing Indoctrination orb...

You can see the hatred well up in Shepard's eyes as he realises how long it'll take him to find another toy like that...

#43867
Unschuld
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 04:03

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byne wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
Where is the toy plane? My shepard never finds one.

MB was referring to this trailer (I hadn't seen it before either)


>not linking the far superior FemShep version


Who is that strange woman wearing armor painted to look like Cmdr. Shepard's?

#43868
Davik Kang
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 04:08

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Unschuld wrote...

byne wrote...
>not linking the far superior FemShep version

Who is that strange woman wearing armor painted to look like Cmdr. Shepard's?

Indeed.  I am useed to the Sheploo having seen those trailers before I'd even played ME1... but the FemShep trailers?  I can't watch them.  She's not Shepard!  Shepard's [a brunette with caucasian-asian features / insert your own Shepard description here]!

#43869
3DandBeyond
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 04:14

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As far as James goes, I could easily see him as being indoctrinated. He repeats himself. He's up on the citadel and questions Shepard about the council as well as comments on the insular nature of life there, as if nothing is happening. Then, back on the Normandy, he asks about the council again. Was that or was that not James up on the citadel? Funny thing is, he was not going to the embassy area when they talked with Bailey-he was headed to the refugee area, IIRC. But he shows up at the embassy. Of course, in my game, he's often not at the poker table even though his voice is. Sometimes, his body is not there. A glitch to be sure. Part of the problem with all of this is that there is much that could be sloppy writing, but it's hoped there was a plan to it all.

I hope for many things and hallucinations, indoctrination, and so on are becoming the last vestiges of hope since it seems clear BW dislikes all the other ideas people have.

#43870
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 04:32

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Gwyphon wrote...

Dark Delta 06 wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...


I'm hoping for more EDI and, strangely enough, James forced encounters. EDI is interesting and James is just suspicious (especially after Leviathan).


Why do you say James. Is suspicious?
... I may have missed stuff I believe I never took him on a mission and apart from him wanting that weird husk head on the normandy and the scene where he and Shepard are with Ann Bryson I didn't see much of him loool



The line about humming, his history with collectors, and the fact that he comes out of freaking no where in the lab during the Leviathan DLC. Scared the hell out of me. I just think he's the perfect character for Bioware to say he's indoctrinated. Not too developed that people will get angry over attatchment to him and not late enough to still be a little shocking. Guess it's just a feeling I have, but it was mainly over him of all people appearing out of no where during Leviathan.


(I haven't read the rest of the thread)

...and that when you go find the Leviathan, the Reapers are right behind you.

Who knew you were going there? Well:
-anyone on the Normandy (duh)
-EDI
-You
-....James

Now it doesn't mean he's an AWARE agent, but he could be a sleeper agent.

#43871
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 04:34

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Macross wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

Dark Delta 06 wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...


I'm hoping for more EDI and, strangely enough, James forced encounters. EDI is interesting and James is just suspicious (especially after Leviathan).


Why do you say James. Is suspicious?
... I may have missed stuff I believe I never took him on a mission and apart from him wanting that weird husk head on the normandy and the scene where he and Shepard are with Ann Bryson I didn't see much of him loool



The line about humming, his history with collectors, and the fact that he comes out of freaking no where in the lab during the Leviathan DLC. Scared the hell out of me. I just think he's the perfect character for Bioware to say he's indoctrinated. Not too developed that people will get angry over attatchment to him and not late enough to still be a little shocking. Guess it's just a feeling I have, but it was mainly over him of all people appearing out of no where during Leviathan.


Speak for yourself mate. I'm already way to over attched to him. His mah second-bro, after Garrus and my main bro for Femshep. love that man. (Seriously though, favorite male squad member after Garrus in the entire series. Dude is wicked cool).

So, recently replayed the ending and I can't see it in a literal light. At all. There are to many 'on-purpose' inconsistencies (like the magically appearing step for Anderson and Shep to lean on, for instance) within the scene itself for me to think that it's anything but a dream/hallucination.

However, I decided to select that last of my dialogue opitions for the Anderson/TIM confortnation as renegade and TIM ended up going on this whole speial about him being the pinacle one and the one chosen to save humanity and crap which I'd never ever heard before or heard existing, at all. Is this new to EC /Leviathan or have I been missing this for the past 7 months?

Also, I love Javik's line about Shepard being the 'Avatar' of this cycle. It sums up almost perfectly why the Reapers would want to indoctrinate Shepard.


You know what else is crazy? There was leaked script dialogue from the Reapers where they say "we were all Shepards once" or to that effect...:whistle:

#43872
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 04:36

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Macross wrote...

Fur28 wrote...

@Macross
if he ends up being indoctrinated, bioware will probably put the option to save him


I don't actually have a problem with him being Indoctrinated. I love the guy but if it helps Bioware spin a good yarn then I am totally fine with him being indoctrinated. I also dislike the idea of being able to save someone from Indoctrination. It hasn't really happened before and it's the one part of the Reapers I'd like to remain undeafetable (except for Shepard being able to withstand it, but that's not the same as being cured or saved from it). Indoctrination is pretty much the one real weapon the Reapers have that make the insanely scary. 


IF Bioware is secretly planning to continue the story into a ME3 expansion or ME4 (just being very cagey about their wording, with things like "No more Shepard" and "No more military focus" ha)...

Then I can see ME3 as 'Reaper invasion, Shepard's story, Indoctrination'
and ME4 as 'Reaper War (we turn the Harvest into a War, Galaxy's story, revelations about cycle'.

#43873
FifthBeatle
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 04:36

FifthBeatle
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starlitegirlx wrote...

mrgc wrote...

Dark Delta 06 wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...


I'm hoping for more EDI and, strangely enough, James forced encounters. EDI is interesting and James is just suspicious (especially after Leviathan).


Why do you say James. Is suspicious?
... I may have missed stuff I believe I never took him on a mission and apart from him wanting that weird husk head on the normandy and the scene where he and Shepard are with Ann Bryson I didn't see much of him loool



Hello I hope you don't mind me interrupting the tread ,but i'd like to add a few things about James being suspicious.At first the hummming... I never really thought it was the ship engines because as I recall Tali complained about the Normandy's engines being to quiet to sleep in ME1 and as the second Normandy is much more upgraded than the first one I doubt it would make such a noise. And only James hears it.

Also, to me, it felt that he's personality changed towards the end of the game from being all battle eager to a bit more insecure .( I got that feeling when he did'nt adress my femshep as lola anymore)



If you guided him toward the N7 program and found him in the cargo bay getting the N7 tattoo where he considers you his trainer and then you call him on his BS flirting, I think that would change him. He says when he commits, he commits. Even if you don't have the N7 conversation with him, the game will play his character as if you did.  The end result is he is dedicated, committed and taking things more seriously now. Nothing to do with indoctrination. Insecure comes with the territory. Remember, he did not like the outcome of that mission where he ran it and everyone save him and maybe another soldier died. So naturally he will have insecurities about the N7 program and being able to cut it. He had doubts in the N7 discussion. Those doubts won't evaporate overnight. I'd be more concerned it they did.

Humming does not equal indoctrination. It is just him hearing humming. There is a noticable hum down there. He's new to the normandy since it just pulled out of dry dock to get shepard while most of the rest of the crew (that we talk to before we begin pick ups) appears to have been there for the retrofit. Adams, cortez, traynor ... all there. Cortez might have ignorned the hum as he was used to it by then. The other crew you pick up never goes down there so the only one that it makes sense with would be Vega. But there is a hum. People assume it's one you are not hearing, but it's noisy down there.

So really, there is no evidence to support him being indoctrinated on any level. Plus, when would he have been? Artifact exposure is necessary.

As for the one mentioned earlier regarding him at the lab/house of bryson, I think he was chosen because he's not primary to any other scenes and he is a gauranteed squadmate. Others get their own scenes through recruitment. But he never does so they might have wanted to include him in something so he gets his own scene. Same for EDI but she's logical in that she would be useful in figuring out what happened and correlating data.



I'm not saying that James is indoctrinated or even going down that path and I think you have some good points, but you don't find the fact that James hears a hum combined with the fact that Bioware even put that dialogue in the game at all even remotely suspicious especially considering we know that the indoctrination signal is an infrasonic hum? Not even a little?

#43874
Wayning_Star
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 04:39

Wayning_Star
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SwobyJ wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

Dark Delta 06 wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...


I'm hoping for more EDI and, strangely enough, James forced encounters. EDI is interesting and James is just suspicious (especially after Leviathan).


Why do you say James. Is suspicious?
... I may have missed stuff I believe I never took him on a mission and apart from him wanting that weird husk head on the normandy and the scene where he and Shepard are with Ann Bryson I didn't see much of him loool



The line about humming, his history with collectors, and the fact that he comes out of freaking no where in the lab during the Leviathan DLC. Scared the hell out of me. I just think he's the perfect character for Bioware to say he's indoctrinated. Not too developed that people will get angry over attatchment to him and not late enough to still be a little shocking. Guess it's just a feeling I have, but it was mainly over him of all people appearing out of no where during Leviathan.


(I haven't read the rest of the thread)

...and that when you go find the Leviathan, the Reapers are right behind you.

Who knew you were going there? Well:
-anyone on the Normandy (duh)
-EDI
-You
-....James

Now it doesn't mean he's an AWARE agent, but he could be a sleeper agent.


Yeah, Hackett probably needs to keep an eye on his hero. Trust is always a 'learned'n earned' thing in politics..lol

#43875
Wayning_Star
Posté 05 novembre 2012 - 04:44

Wayning_Star
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FifthBeatle wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

mrgc wrote...

Dark Delta 06 wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...


I'm hoping for more EDI and, strangely enough, James forced encounters. EDI is interesting and James is just suspicious (especially after Leviathan).


Why do you say James. Is suspicious?
... I may have missed stuff I believe I never took him on a mission and apart from him wanting that weird husk head on the normandy and the scene where he and Shepard are with Ann Bryson I didn't see much of him loool



Hello I hope you don't mind me interrupting the tread ,but i'd like to add a few things about James being suspicious.At first the hummming... I never really thought it was the ship engines because as I recall Tali complained about the Normandy's engines being to quiet to sleep in ME1 and as the second Normandy is much more upgraded than the first one I doubt it would make such a noise. And only James hears it.

Also, to me, it felt that he's personality changed towards the end of the game from being all battle eager to a bit more insecure .( I got that feeling when he did'nt adress my femshep as lola anymore)



If you guided him toward the N7 program and found him in the cargo bay getting the N7 tattoo where he considers you his trainer and then you call him on his BS flirting, I think that would change him. He says when he commits, he commits. Even if you don't have the N7 conversation with him, the game will play his character as if you did.  The end result is he is dedicated, committed and taking things more seriously now. Nothing to do with indoctrination. Insecure comes with the territory. Remember, he did not like the outcome of that mission where he ran it and everyone save him and maybe another soldier died. So naturally he will have insecurities about the N7 program and being able to cut it. He had doubts in the N7 discussion. Those doubts won't evaporate overnight. I'd be more concerned it they did.

Humming does not equal indoctrination. It is just him hearing humming. There is a noticable hum down there. He's new to the normandy since it just pulled out of dry dock to get shepard while most of the rest of the crew (that we talk to before we begin pick ups) appears to have been there for the retrofit. Adams, cortez, traynor ... all there. Cortez might have ignorned the hum as he was used to it by then. The other crew you pick up never goes down there so the only one that it makes sense with would be Vega. But there is a hum. People assume it's one you are not hearing, but it's noisy down there.

So really, there is no evidence to support him being indoctrinated on any level. Plus, when would he have been? Artifact exposure is necessary.

As for the one mentioned earlier regarding him at the lab/house of bryson, I think he was chosen because he's not primary to any other scenes and he is a gauranteed squadmate. Others get their own scenes through recruitment. But he never does so they might have wanted to include him in something so he gets his own scene. Same for EDI but she's logical in that she would be useful in figuring out what happened and correlating data.



I'm not saying that James is indoctrinated or even going down that path and I think you have some good points, but you don't find the fact that James hears a hum combined with the fact that Bioware even put that dialogue in the game at all even remotely suspicious especially considering we know that the indoctrination signal is an infrasonic hum? Not even a little?


James is a 'third wheel' in the story. I think he's a 'plant' (not necessarily potted ;) that the devs were intending to utilize for other adventures, IF he stuck with the fans. He's not really all that popular imo though...

I cannot get all the responses to the IT, as if fans really 'want' the reality to alter in the story? So bad that poor old behind the times James becomes 'supicious' in nature?
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