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[Davik Kang]

Restrider wrote...
Top: Seriously, what is it with me being on top with nonsense posts and having meaningful ones at the bottom of the page .

It is the cycle.  It will continue.  It is... inevitable.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:32 .

[Restrider]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
That is a possibility, one I have considered and which is quite likely, but it dosent quite measure up with Harbingers "Geth. An Annoyance" line from the Proto Reaper fight when you consider that Catalyst says they preserve Organic and Synthetic lifeforms. Why would the Geth be merely "an Annoyance" if they have the same priority on the Ascension scale as everyone else?

Also the mere fact that the Reaper directly try to cause the exintinction of the Geth or Quarians in ME3 should tell anyone that something is seriusly wrong with the Catalyst. He is designed to preserve the species of each cycle, yet is causing the extermination of a species without preserving them first?

Do you remember one of the conversations with Saren? I think it was on Virmire.
Saren states that the Geth worship Sovereign as their god, but that no amount of belief from their side will impress Sovereign to spare them, they are just Sovereign's tools to achieve his own goals.

[Restrider]

[quote]Davik Kang wrote...

[quote]Restrider wrote...
[quote]BatmanTurian wrote...
Top: Seriously, what is it with me being on top with nonsense posts and having meaningful ones at the bottom of the page .
[/quote]
It is the cycle.  It will continue.  It is... inevitable.

[/quote]
What happened their with the quote   .
You're nailing it, Davik. BSN loves you

And apparantely me too.

Modifié par Restrider, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:29 .

[Davik Kang]

Restrider wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Restrider wrote...
It is the cycle.  It will continue.  It is... inevitable.

What happened their with the quote   .
You're nailing it, Davik. BSN loves you

And apparantely me too.

Edited mine to retroactively make me  look like I knew what I was doing.

And BSN will love me... they just don't know it yet.

I just need to borrow your ship, your new AI, a few of your engineers, and get a new body...

Modifié par Davik Kang, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:37 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Restrider wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Destroyers: What are you going to do to prevent anyone from building Reapers ever again?

They're hardcore attacking people who picked destroy now. I sense doubt and fear.

That scares me...
Top: Seriously, what is it with me being on top with nonsense posts and having meaningful ones at the bottom of the page .

My rebuttal, without even needing to touch on Indoctrination Theory...

OP clearly has a messiah complex.

Shepard's role is to protect the various existing civilisations of the galaxy.  Not to dictate the future to them.
Asari, Krogan, Batarian, Salarian, Geth, Quarian, Turian, VOlus, Drell, Hanaar and of course Humanity themselves... they have all united to fight the Reaper threat, and preserve their way of life, to free the galaxy from the cycle of extinction and allow themselves to pursue their own future.
They understand the risks.  They are aware there will be casualties.  They know they may not all survive.  But they are all committed to the cause of defeating the Reapers and ending the cycle once and for all.

But Control is not "defeating the Reapers".  It is merely replacing one controlling AI with another.  The threat persists.  Synthesis is not "defeating the Reapers".  It is succumbing to the controlling AI's ideals, agreeing with them, and forcing them upon an unaware and unwilling galaxy, while leaving the Reapers intact.  the threat persists.  Refuse is not "defeating the Reapers".  It is giving up, throwing away your only chance at survival.  The threat persists - a future cycle may end it, but the current one is doomed due to your own inaction.

Only Destroy defeats the Reapers once and for all.  Only Destroy removes the threat of extinction/harvesting/huskification from your friends and allies and the races and civilisations you represent.

Could the Reapers be rebuilt?  Possibly.  Could another aggressive AI/Synthetic race become a threat once more?  Maybe.  But what may or may not possibly happen in the far-flung future is not your concern, nor should it be.  The galaxy should be free to pursue it's own destiny, while learning from the mistakes of the past.  Shepard is not a god, Shepard is one person.  Your concerns are with the present, and the people who are relying on you in this moment.

If you forget this simple truth, if you're swayed by the Catalyst's flawed logic, if you start concerning yourself with anything other than the immediate threat, the one killing your friends as you um and ah about what may or may not be, and you've failed.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 07 novembre 2012 - 11:50 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Restrider wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
That is a possibility, one I have considered and which is quite likely, but it dosent quite measure up with Harbingers "Geth. An Annoyance" line from the Proto Reaper fight when you consider that Catalyst says they preserve Organic and Synthetic lifeforms. Why would the Geth be merely "an Annoyance" if they have the same priority on the Ascension scale as everyone else?

Also the mere fact that the Reaper directly try to cause the exintinction of the Geth or Quarians in ME3 should tell anyone that something is seriusly wrong with the Catalyst. He is designed to preserve the species of each cycle, yet is causing the extermination of a species without preserving them first?

Do you remember one of the conversations with Saren? I think it was on Virmire.
Saren states that the Geth worship Sovereign as their god, but that no amount of belief from their side will impress Sovereign to spare them, they are just Sovereign's tools to achieve his own goals.

In short the two prominent Reapers we have encountered both disprove the bull**** the Catalyst says...

You really know things are ****ed up when the villians cant seem to agree on their goal...<_<

[Fingertrip]

I found new Indoctrination EVIDENCE in the FRENCH youtube clip of Mass Effect Omega 3 DLC clip!

There is a soldier holding his HANDS in the hair and then clinching his fist! It was even zoomed in and focused on. What does it MEAN?!

[Rifneno]

leonia42 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You do realize you're still taking a path laid out for you in Destroy, yes?

To be fair to all the Xil-opposers out there, this is a good point. The Crucible is still needed to be given the option of Destroy. You can't dstroy the Crucible if it isn't around, though you probably wouldn't know you could destroy it without the Starchild saying it's a viable option. So you spend all these resources building something only to destroy it in the end. Seems like a lot of wasted resources. While I agree that using a device you know nothing about is a terrible, terrible idea.. no other alternative was ever presented in the narrative. This is why I think Paragon Shepards tend to doubt their ability to succeed, they aren't about to trust something like the Crucible blindly but there's no other deus ex machina available. The path of Destroy is still the one we should take but if we don't have the means to achieve it (like, say the ending was a dream/hallucination and the Crucible's destruction hasn't happened or actually does nothing against the Reapers), then we're back to square one.

No. Xil has never made a good point here. Hell, not even a decent one. She's become the poster child for people who don't get it and failed the test. You're misunderstanding what's going on too if you think she had a point. Destroy is not a path laid out for you by Starbinger. This whole thing is only happening in Shepard's subconscious. Destroy is the path that Shepard's subconscious has laid out. Control and synthesis are paths laid out by the Reapers. Starbinger only tries to dissaude you from destroy. It's presented as all negative vs. far superior options. You die, EDI dies, the geth dies, organic civilization is set far back, and eventually will be completely destroyed by "the problem." That is not a path that Starbinger gave you, that's a path that Starbinger is trying desperately to talk you away from.

Fingertrip wrote...

I found new Indoctrination EVIDENCE in the FRENCH youtube clip of Mass Effect Omega 3 DLC clip!

There is a soldier holding his HANDS in the hair and then clinching his fist! It was even zoomed in and focused on. What does it MEAN?!

That Fingertrip is an anagram for "Print Grief".

[Restrider]

Somehow related.

[Andromidius]

And the obvious comments about fanfiction, coming from people who've headcanoned the endings extensively themselves.

Go figure.

And yeah, its quite disturbing how much anti-Destroy hate that's being thrown around. Lots of reversing who's the victim and who's to blame, the typical traits of a bully mentality.

[Restrider]

Stockholm syndrome anyone?
I wouldn't be surprised that people would start to - seriously - advocate for some kind of Reaper romance/LI, if BW refuses to shed some light on the delusion they are living in.

I have to say - if intended or not - this is just astonishing and frightening at the same time, to see how easily people are getting deceived and turn out to be fundamentalists.

[Rifneno]

Andromidius wrote...

And the obvious comments about fanfiction, coming from people who've headcanoned the endings extensively themselves.

Go figure.

And yeah, its quite disturbing how much anti-Destroy hate that's being thrown around. Lots of reversing who's the victim and who's to blame, the typical traits of a bully mentality.

They remind me of this pic.

[CmdrShep80]

Fingertrip wrote...

I found new Indoctrination EVIDENCE in the FRENCH youtube clip of Mass Effect Omega 3 DLC clip!

There is a soldier holding his HANDS in the hair and then clinching his fist! It was even zoomed in and focused on. What does it MEAN?!

it means we will have lots to speculate over

[CmdrShep80]

SwobyJ wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

By the way if you've ever tried to convince a delusional person that reality is not what the delusional person is saying, they will become defensive and not believe you because in their own mind it is right.  This can include, "You have a mental illness."  They will say that they do not because they believe it to be true even though people outside of themselves do not see it.
An example is the Asari at Huerta Memorial with PTSD.  The counselor believes she's suffering from symptoms of PTSD but the Asari herself believes nothing is wrong with her even as she's explaining what happened to her.  All she just needs a gun to protect herself from the Reapers.  Nothing wrong with that for anyone else but for her she's imparied on what she was going to do with the gun such as when she goes and uses it on herself.

When you re-watch the vid (it shows the whole conversation), take a guess of how long she was not in contact with the world and how much sleep she had?  There's some hints in the conversations

I kinda think the PTSD soldier was actually indoctrinated, but a struggler. She killed the girl (Joker's sister?) as a result of being influenced.

She asks "How are my eyes", right?

So, my current playthrough chose not to give her the gun, but I do think there's enough to go by that she's fighting indoctrination and the gun is used to make the dreams stop..

I agree with you there because she ends up doing what all the indoctrinated people have done so far to break free. Though you have to wonder. If you spared her life, how will that haunt you later?  Maybe you'll be fighting her on Omega? 
I know I gave her the gun then was devastated when she used it but there could be something said for that. 
If we look at it from PTSD perspective giving her a gun is also a bad thing to do too. But if she's really fighting indoctrination, then not giving her a gun is worst

[CmdrShep80]

SwobyJ wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

By the way if you've ever tried to convince a delusional person that reality is not what the delusional person is saying, they will become defensive and not believe you because in their own mind it is right.  This can include, "You have a mental illness."  They will say that they do not because they believe it to be true even though people outside of themselves do not see it.
An example is the Asari at Huerta Memorial with PTSD.  The counselor believes she's suffering from symptoms of PTSD but the Asari herself believes nothing is wrong with her even as she's explaining what happened to her.  All she just needs a gun to protect herself from the Reapers.  Nothing wrong with that for anyone else but for her she's imparied on what she was going to do with the gun such as when she goes and uses it on herself.

When you re-watch the vid (it shows the whole conversation), take a guess of how long she was not in contact with the world and how much sleep she had?  There's some hints in the conversations

I kinda think the PTSD soldier was actually indoctrinated, but a struggler. She killed the girl (Joker's sister?) as a result of being influenced.

She asks "How are my eyes", right?

So, my current playthrough chose not to give her the gun, but I do think there's enough to go by that she's fighting indoctrination and the gun is used to make the dreams stop..

I agree with you there because she ends up doing what all the indoctrinated people have done so far to break free. Though you have to wonder. If you spared her life, how will that haunt you later?  Maybe you'll be fighting her on Omega? 
I know I gave her the gun then was devastated when she used it but there could be something said for that. 
If we look at it from PTSD perspective giving her a gun is also a bad thing to do too. But if she's really fighting indoctrination, then not giving her a gun is worst

[CmdrShep80]

Sorry about the double post. I thought it didn't post

[Davik Kang]

CmdrShep80 wrote...
Sorry about the double post. I thought it didn't post

This seems to be happening for everyone a lot recently

I answered a query of yours on the previous page btw

Rifneno wrote...
No. Xil has never made a good point here. Hell, not even a decent one. She's become the poster child for people who don't get it and failed the test. You're misunderstanding what's going on too if you think she had a point. Destroy is not a path laid out for you by Starbinger. This whole thing is only happening in Shepard's subconscious. Destroy is the path that Shepard's subconscious has laid out. Control and synthesis are paths laid out by the Reapers. Starbinger only tries to dissaude you from destroy. It's presented as all negative vs. far superior options. You die, EDI dies, the geth dies, organic civilization is set far back, and eventually will be completely destroyed by "the problem." That is not a path that Starbinger gave you, that's a path that Starbinger is trying desperately to talk you away from.

I'm not a huge fan of Xil-bashing or anyone bashing for that matter.  I also think that Destroy is 'laid out' for you - we didn't choose to kill (or at least compromise) EDI or the Geth.  

But I do agree 100% with the rest.  It's not laid out by the Child.  He most certainly is trying desperately to talk you out of it.

The consequences of Destroy are the consequences of the Crucible design, and have nothing to do with the Reapers' goals or motives.  Destroy is, just like someone quoted recently, '[the only way] this ends today'.

[ElSuperGecko]

Restrider wrote...
Stockholm syndrome anyone?
I wouldn't be surprised that people would start to - seriously - advocate for some kind of Reaper romance/LI, if BW refuses to shed some light on the delusion they are living in.

I have to say - if intended or not - this is just astonishing and frightening at the same time, to see how easily people are getting deceived and turn out to be fundamentalists.

Quoted for truth.

Everyone we speak to in game - Anderson, Hackett, Garrus, Liara, Javik, EVERYONE - warns us about the Reapers.  The risks of indoctrination.  Hints at whether we can believe the evidence of our own eyes when dealing with them.  We've seen the effects of indoctrination first hand, with Saren, Kenson, TIM and more.  The ending of ME3 has such similarities with each of these encounters it's impossible for it to be anything other than intentional.

And yet, in less than five minutes of dialogue, the majority of which goes against every argument we've heard in the game (and made ourselves only a few minutes earlier) a ghostly AI which presents itself as the creator of everything we're fighting against manages to persuade a sizable section of the fan base not only to NOT destroy the Reapers when they have the chance, but to actively side with it and accept it's ideas.

That in itself is frightening.

But then - if it wasn't enough that Bioware can manage to manipulate the players into making a decision which effectively colludes with the enemy - the players who accept the Catalyst's suggestions somehow go on to brainwash themselves into believing that they couldn't possibly have been manipulated.

What this says about the human condition I don't know, but there are entire libraries worth of potential psychological studies and analysis here.

[Davik Kang]

ElSuperGecko wrote...
What this says about the human condition I don't know, but there are entire libraries worth of potential psychological studies and analysis here.

Given that we have to tie our online EA account, and therefore game choices, to our BSN profiles before we can post in this forum, I do sometimes suspect that such an analysis is actually ongoing...

(Though may well simply be tied to selling more EA games )

Still, maybe someday they'll release the data - anonymous and non-traceable of course...

[CmdrShep80]

Davik Kang wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...
Sorry about the double post. I thought it didn't post

This seems to be happening for everyone a lot recently

I answered a query of yours on the previous page btw
.

looks like I moved right past it. Thanks for debunking the phantom thing. Though it was fun looking at the cabin and making some conclusions about the roof

[CmdrShep80]

Davik Kang wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
What this says about the human condition I don't know, but there are entire libraries worth of potential psychological studies and analysis here.

Given that we have to tie our online EA account, and therefore game choices, to our BSN profiles before we can post in this forum, I do sometimes suspect that such an analysis is actually ongoing...

(Though may well simply be tied to selling more EA games )

Still, maybe someday they'll release the data - anonymous and non-traceable of course...

bet it'll say that ITers are the most civil bunch on BSN

[Davik Kang]

CmdrShep80 wrote...
looks like I moved right past it. Thanks for debunking the phantom thing. Though it was fun looking at the cabin and making some conclusions about the roof

Did I?  Cos I posted something and them immediately withdrew it, cos I was wrong.  I don't think I've been able to contribute anything useful to the Phantom debate unfortunately.

The above was just about the Control and Destroy mechanisms being part of the Citadel and not part of the Crucible.

[Davik Kang]

CmdrShep80 wrote...
bet it'll say that ITers are the most civil bunch on BSN

I think Chris Priestly backing you guys up suggests that Bioware have already come to that conclusion.

[Humakt83]

Like I've said, the "child" is the most devious villain I've ever encountered. Just brilliant.

[CmdrShep80]

Davik Kang wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...
looks like I moved right past it. Thanks for debunking the phantom thing. Though it was fun looking at the cabin and making some conclusions about the roof

Did I?  Cos I posted something and them immediately withdrew it, cos I was wrong.  I don't think I've been able to contribute anything useful to the Phantom debate unfortunately.

The above was just about the Control and Destroy mechanisms being part of the Citadel and not part of the Crucible.

well you did about saying it was Shepard not a phantom. So we all know that Shepard has to break into his own cabin on a daily basis as part of keeping up with his alignment practice 

Merit- another top with a 7 in it 

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 07 novembre 2012 - 02:53 .