80611 réponses à ce sujet

[abnocte]

Well, if the IT is correct ( no EC taken into account ) I assume that the outcome of the battle, the relays being destroyed, and the Normandy's fate is all part of Shepards illusion.

After all nobody reached the Crucible and used it ( if it was usable at all, and not a Reaper ploy ).

So the real outcome of the cycle is unknown... meaning Bioware can take as starting point for ME4 whatever they want... or if we consider the scene after the credits with the kid and grampa as real that would mean that organic life is saved. That scene is exactly the same regardless of which choice you pick.

Well, that's what I think... and I certainly prefer ME4 going forward than backward... and by fordward I mean like a 1000 years after Shepard's story.

Modifié par abnocte, 09 novembre 2012 - 11:46 .

[demersel]

abnocte wrote...

Well, if the IT is correct ( no EC taken into account ) I assume that the outcome of the battle, the relays being destroyed, and the Normandy's fate is all part of Shepards illusion.

After all nobody reached the Crucible and used it ( if it was usable at all, and not a Reaper ploy ).

So the real outcome of the cycle is unknown... meaning Bioware can take as starting point for ME4 whatever they want... or if we consider the scene after the credits with the kid and grampa as real that would mean that organic life is saved. That scene is exactly the same regardless of which choice you pick.

Well, that's what I think... and I certainly prefer ME4 going forward than backward... and by fordward I mean like a 1000 years after Shepard's story.

If It is correct they can do anything - like start a game at the same time ME3 is happening but with another character doing other things - and surprise surprise it does not stop after assault on earth but rather continues. If anything the rest of the galaxy might even not know what happened on earth - or that there was an assault - and we only learn that the assault already happened way into the game. 

[Eryri]

abnocte wrote...

Well, if the IT is correct ( no EC taken into account ) I assume that the outcome of the battle, the relays being destroyed, and the Normandy's fate is all part of Shepards illusion.

After all nobody reached the Crucible and used it ( if it was usable at all, and not a Reaper ploy ).

So the real outcome of the cycle is unknown... meaning Bioware can take as starting point for ME4 whatever they want... or if we consider the scene after the credits with the kid and grampa as real that would mean that organic life is saved. That scene is exactly the same regardless of which choice you pick.

Well, that's what I think... and I certainly prefer ME4 going forward than backward... and by fordward I mean like a 1000 years after Shepard's story.

I largely agree, although I wouldn't like to go too far into the future, I'd still like to see cameos from the old crew.

I can really only see 3 ways the ME franchise could possibly continue.

1. A canonised destroy - with lots of potential conflict in the power vacuum.

2. An IT based ending which exposes all the existing endings as hallucinations and allows Bioware to retcon the story in whatever way is necessary. 

3. Successful refuse - based on something like the Puzzle Theory.

All three run the risk of alienating those who like one or more endings interpreted literally. However I think the potential benefits of option 2 (and to a lesser extent option 3) outweigh the risks.

It enables Bioware to write off the plot holes as the confused imaginings of a partially indoctrinated Shepard.

It keeps the Geth and Edi alive.

Lastly and most importantly it gives an opportunity for an uplifting, victorious, feel good ending, where Shepard triumphs over Harbinger. It also resets the stage back to, more or less, where we were in ME1, with lots of potential for new stories.

Modifié par Eryri, 09 novembre 2012 - 12:05 .

[ElSuperGecko]

demersel wrote...
If It is correct they can do anything - like start a game at the same time ME3 is happening but with another character doing other things - and surprise surprise it does not stop after assault on earth but rather continues. If anything the rest of the galaxy might even not know what happened on earth - or that there was an assault - and we only learn that the assault already happened way into the game. 

"Our civilisations are on the brink of extinction.  Our planets lie in ruins.  We have nowhere left to run.  But how do you fight back when your greatest enemy is inside your own mind?"

"....THE HARVEST HAS BEGUN.  ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL."

MASS EFFECT 4

/voiceover

....but seriously, Javik tells us that the war with the Reapers in his cycle lasted over 500 years.  He was born AFTER the invasion started.  ME3 doesn't throw us into that kind of battle, it doesn't show us that kind of desperation.  Hell, we spend over half the game fighting Cerberus, not the Reapers.  I personally think there's so much more potential in the Reaper invasion, so much that could be done with it.

Of course, Leviathan sets up ME4 perfectly as well if you take the endings at face value.  Between the Leviathan and the Yagh you have the antagonists ready-made for the next game in the series.

[abnocte]

Also, let's not forget that they only reap space-faring civilizations

[demersel]

ElSuperGecko wrote...


....but seriously, Javik tells us that the war with the Reapers in his cycle lasted over 500 years.  He was born AFTER the invasion started.  ME3 doesn't throw us into that kind of battle, it doesn't show us that kind of desperation.  Hell, we spend over half the game fighting Cerberus, not the Reapers.  I personally think there's so much more potential in the Reaper invasion, so much that could be done with it.

Of course, Leviathan sets up ME4 perfectly as well if you take the endings at face value.  Between the Leviathan and the Yagh you have the antagonists ready-made for the next game in the series.

Imagine
ME4 starts on the quite planet, like the one in stargazer's scene. some 500 years after ME3. The galaxy is in isolation. THe invasion is only legends - there is is planet and that is it. All is well. And then suddenly the reapers come! And you have to find a ship to get the hell out of that planet and run! Relays don't work, so you have to travel slow! And you really don't know where to go! all you know is your planet - you have no idea what is happening in the rest of the galaxy! No relays - travel is slow, takes years, which you spand in cryosleep, takes resources, which are very limited for you - say you can only hope to reach only number of systems (because your ship is a piece of junk) -  but you really have to choose where to go! You can only make one trip - what you find there is what you get. And don't forget - travel takes time - so if you decide to go to some place - it will take years - and events WILL happen in all the places - so further into the game you will really have to be carefull about your navigation - if you don't go to certain places at certain point is time - when you do you might not find them there - like the reapers already got to them and devastated the placa, or events happened which you could have been part of, but you weren't there so the outcome is different and the it is in different state when you finally arrive! It will be a quest - to make your way through the galaxy, and to eventually to stop the reapers! 

[demersel]

abnocte wrote...

Also, let's not forget that they only reap space-faring civilizations

Oh, yeah? And who told you that?  You really should have paid attention to galaxy map and side missions in ME1, ME2, and ME3. THey take out space faring civilisations FIRST. 
 

[ElSuperGecko]

demersel wrote...
Oh, yeah? And who told you that?  You really should have paid attention to galaxy map and side missions in ME1, ME2, and ME3. THey take out space faring civilisations FIRST. 
 

Interesting though that the Yagh homeworld was avoided by the Reapers.

It leaves them in a prime position for expansion in the chaos that would follow a canon destroy...

[abnocte]

demersel wrote...

abnocte wrote...

Also, let's not forget that they only reap space-faring civilizations

Oh, yeah? And who told you that?  You really should have paid attention to galaxy map and side missions in ME1, ME2, and ME3. THey take out space faring civilisations FIRST. 
 

If by first you mean, that they wait for another 50000 years before reaping the rest. Yes, you are correct.

Humans were on earth when the Protheans cycle took place.
Add to that the Asari and Hanar.

Modifié par abnocte, 09 novembre 2012 - 12:19 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

ElSuperGecko:

I doubt we will see the Leviathans moving on to the big scene any time soon.

First of even with the Reaper gone they would need alot of time to rise back towards their former control. At the moment they are weakened, dare I say even afraid of the Reaper finding them and as such their numbers and resources are quite limited.

Secondly we know about them now and even more importantly we can shield ourselves aginst their mind control as demonstrated in the Leviathan.

The way i see it they just dont pose a serius threat, at least not compared to the Reapers unless given alot of time to prepare in. Maybe sidemissions with them, but i doubt we will be thrown into a new conflict with them just yet, it would be too much of a rehearsel of the Reaper threat...only less threatening.

[ElSuperGecko]

abnocte wrote...
If by first you mean, that they wait for another 50000 years before reaping the rest. Yes, you are correct.

Humans were on earth when the Protheans cycle took place. Add to that the Asari and Hanar.

IIRC there are a couple of planets you can scan during ME/ME2 which show the ruins of pre-space flight civilisations that appear to have been obliterated by orbital bombardment.

They don't specifically state it was a Reaper invasion, but the implications are there.  After speaking with Javik however, it could be the remains of cultures which refused to join the Prothean Empire...

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

abnocte wrote...

demersel wrote...

abnocte wrote...

Also, let's not forget that they only reap space-faring civilizations

Oh, yeah? And who told you that?  You really should have paid attention to galaxy map and side missions in ME1, ME2, and ME3. THey take out space faring civilisations FIRST. 
 

If by first you mean, that they wait for another 50000 years before reaping the rest. Yes, you are correct.

Humans were on earth when the Protheans cycle took place.
Add to that the Asari and Hanar.

And the Rachni and Salarians ("they used to eat flies")

[demersel]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

demersel wrote...
Oh, yeah? And who told you that?  You really should have paid attention to galaxy map and side missions in ME1, ME2, and ME3. THey take out space faring civilisations FIRST. 
 

Interesting though that the Yagh homeworld was avoided by the Reapers.

which we know from where? Brutes look remarkably like Yagh (though they are said to be mesh of krogans with turians, but really the body of a brute is the body of a Yagh, rather than of a krogan - brutes don't have a tail, like krogans do.) And besides, reapers have not even started the harvest proper - we know events of like first mounths of invasion - who'se to say they won't start harveting them in like 20 years? 

Modifié par demersel, 09 novembre 2012 - 12:28 .

[demersel]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

And the Rachni and Salarians ("they used to eat flies")

Who's to say they don't now? You know for sure what salarians eat? 
Also, define flyies. The Flies Javik speaks of could be very different from the flies on Earth. 

Modifié par demersel, 09 novembre 2012 - 12:31 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

demersel wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

demersel wrote...
Oh, yeah? And who told you that?  You really should have paid attention to galaxy map and side missions in ME1, ME2, and ME3. THey take out space faring civilisations FIRST. 
 

Interesting though that the Yagh homeworld was avoided by the Reapers.

which we know from where? Brutes look remarkably like Yagh (though they are said to be mesh of krogans with turians, but really the body of a brute is the body of a Yagh, rather than of a krogan - brutes don't have a tail, like krogans do.) And besides, reapers have not even started the harvest proper - we know events of like first mounths of invasion - who'se to say they won't start harveting them in like 20 years? 

Also remember the Harvesters, they are not spacefaring, barely even sentient going from the codex entries speculation on them yet the Reapers harvested and converted them <_<

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

demersel wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

And the Rachni and Salarians ("they used to eat flies")

Who's to say they don't now? You know for sure what salarians eat? 
Also, define flyies. The Flies Javik speaks of could be very different from the flies on Earth. 

They probably are different, I was just quoting Javiks line on the Salarians.

[ElSuperGecko]

demersel wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

demersel wrote...
Oh, yeah? And who told you that?  You really should have paid attention to galaxy map and side missions in ME1, ME2, and ME3. THey take out space faring civilisations FIRST. 
 

Interesting though that the Yagh homeworld was avoided by the Reapers.

which we know from where? Brutes look remarkably like Yagh (though they are said to be mesh of krogans with turians, but really the body of a brute is the body of a Yagh, rather than of a krogan - brutes don't have a tail, like krogans do.) And besides, reapers have not even started the harvest proper - we know events of like first mounths of invasion - who'se to say they won't start harveting them in like 20 years? 

The conversation with Hackett where he says the Yagh homeworld was left completely untouched by the Reaper forces.

Of course, nothing's to say the Reapers won't start harvesting them further down the line, but that doesn't invalidate my suggestion that the Yagh would be in a prime position for expansion should the Destroy ending be made canon.

[Rifneno]

demersel wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

demersel wrote...
Oh, yeah? And who told you that?  You really should have paid attention to galaxy map and side missions in ME1, ME2, and ME3. THey take out space faring civilisations FIRST. 
 

Interesting though that the Yagh homeworld was avoided by the Reapers.

which we know from where? Brutes look remarkably like Yagh (though they are said to be mesh of krogans with turians, but really the body of a brute is the body of a Yagh, rather than of a krogan - brutes don't have a tail, like krogans do.) And besides, reapers have not even started the harvest proper - we know events of like first mounths of invasion - who'se to say they won't start harveting them in like 20 years? 

Exactly.  Hell, Sur'Kesh wasn't invaded by the time the game ended.  Nobody thinks the salarians are being spared.  It's simply that we're in the very early stages of the war.  It's been going on a few months at most and it'll last hundreds of years.  Note that the Reapers attacked the foes with the best militaries first.  Khar'Shan was pretty might right where the Reapers entered the Milky Way so I'm sure that played a role in their being hit first.  Though totalitarian regimes are generally very militaristic so they did present a more up-front threat than most races.  Then the invasion force split off into two large fronts: one assaulting Earth, the other Palaven.  The races with what likely had the three strongest militaries in the galaxy were hit first.  Thessia wasn't hit until near the end of the game because the asari are too peaceful for their own good.  Irune, Dekuuna, ect. weren't hit until late either.  They simply didn't pose the threat of the human, turian, and batarian forces.

Yahgs are a few decades behind our real life technology.  They pose virtually no threat to the Reapers themselves.  Sure, a yahg would make an awesome shocktrooper but dozens of eyes and the ability to throw half a desk doesn't help against a mile and a half long metal superdemon.  Thus, the yahgs would be among the last species hit.  And again, the game ends before the salarians are hit.

[demersel]

Rifneno wrote...

Yahgs are a few decades behind our real life technology.  They pose virtually no threat to the Reapers themselves.  Sure, a yahg would make an awesome shocktrooper but dozens of eyes and the ability to throw half a desk doesn't help against a mile and a half long metal superdemon.  Thus, the yahgs would be among the last species hit.  And again, the game ends before the salarians are hit.

Again, there is still a point of Brutes looking very yaghish, rather than kroganish. 

[Rifneno]

demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Yahgs are a few decades behind our real life technology.  They pose virtually no threat to the Reapers themselves.  Sure, a yahg would make an awesome shocktrooper but dozens of eyes and the ability to throw half a desk doesn't help against a mile and a half long metal superdemon.  Thus, the yahgs would be among the last species hit.  And again, the game ends before the salarians are hit.

Again, there is still a point of Brutes looking very yaghish, rather than kroganish. 

I did a side by side comparison a few months back and showed all the points where it's blindly obvious that brutes are designed off the yahg model. I wasn't really sure why, but found it interesting. The replies where what you expect from anything outside this thread: completely devoid of intelligent thought. "The codex says they're krogans." "I know but I'm sa--" "The codex says they're krogans." "Yes but I'm wondering WHY they--" "Krogans. Codex says so."

[abnocte]

We know since ME that Hannar had contact with Protheans, in ME3 we learn that Asari also. Yet neither one was harvested in the previous cycle...

If we take the theory that says that the only purpose of the Reapers for harvesting is reproduction, it makes sense that they leave some civilizations behind. Wipping all organic life once and for all would mean the cycles end.

Edit: Also let's not forget something, ME takes place in the 22 century as far as we know humans have been around for way more than 50000 years, and I don't buy the "it's fiction they don't have to abide by reality".

Humans existed on earth for various cycles as humanity goes back to various millions of years.

Edit 2: What I don't understand is why reapers need to reproduce at all, as far as we know they are "inmortal" as in they don't age or die by natural means...

Modifié par abnocte, 09 novembre 2012 - 01:16 .

[MaximizedAction]

Rifneno wrote...
I did a side by side comparison a few months back and showed all the points where it's blindly obvious that brutes are designed off the yahg model. I wasn't really sure why, but found it interesting. The replies where what you expect from anything outside this thread: completely devoid of intelligent thought. "The codex says they're krogans." "I know but I'm sa--" "The codex says they're krogans." "Yes but I'm wondering WHY they--" "Krogans. Codex says so."

Hm, I expected you'd write that they blamed BW for not being consistent enough, lazy designer, etc.
At least their argument was somewhat..based on facts.

[Rifneno]

abnocte wrote...

We know since ME that Hannar had contact with Protheans, in ME3 we learn that Asari also. Yet neither one was harvested in the previous cycle...

If we take the theory that says that the only purpose of the Reapers for harvesting is reproduction, it makes sense that they leave some civilizations behind. Wipping all organic life once and for all would mean the cycles end.

The Protheans were also involved with early humans.  Or at least one of the now extinct ****** genus.  If the asari and hanar were along the lines we were when the Protheans were at Earth, then they were still at the "invented the wheel yet?  no?  'kay, be back in century or two" stage.  We were just animals without a real society yet.  The yahg have a modern society and in fact it's extremely unlikely that they won't have managed space exploration before this Reaper war is over with.

[Macross]

Rifneno wrote...

demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Yahgs are a few decades behind our real life technology.  They pose virtually no threat to the Reapers themselves.  Sure, a yahg would make an awesome shocktrooper but dozens of eyes and the ability to throw half a desk doesn't help against a mile and a half long metal superdemon.  Thus, the yahgs would be among the last species hit.  And again, the game ends before the salarians are hit.

Again, there is still a point of Brutes looking very yaghish, rather than kroganish. 

I did a side by side comparison a few months back and showed all the points where it's blindly obvious that brutes are designed off the yahg model. I wasn't really sure why, but found it interesting. The replies where what you expect from anything outside this thread: completely devoid of intelligent thought. "The codex says they're krogans." "I know but I'm sa--" "The codex says they're krogans." "Yes but I'm wondering WHY they--" "Krogans. Codex says so."

You should have pointed out that the Codex's are written in universe and are thus not always completely accur-

What am I saying? This is BSN, the idiots here wouldn't know reason if it dropped on them like an anvil.

[Macross]

Rifneno wrote...

abnocte wrote...

We know since ME that Hannar had contact with Protheans, in ME3 we learn that Asari also. Yet neither one was harvested in the previous cycle...

If we take the theory that says that the only purpose of the Reapers for harvesting is reproduction, it makes sense that they leave some civilizations behind. Wipping all organic life once and for all would mean the cycles end.

The Protheans were also involved with early humans.  Or at least one of the now extinct ****** genus.  If the asari and hanar were along the lines we were when the Protheans were at Earth, then they were still at the "invented the wheel yet?  no?  'kay, be back in century or two" stage.  We were just animals without a real society yet.  The yahg have a modern society and in fact it's extremely unlikely that they won't have managed space exploration before this Reaper war is over with.

It'd have to be either modern humans or neanders. There wasn't anyone else from our genuis in existance when the Prothean's were active.

Also, the Asari would have been way more advanced then early humans- you have to remember they had an entire mythological relgiouse society built around the protheans and the actions the protheans commited. You wouldn't get that unless they were a decent way passed the hunter-gather state and bordering between cheifdomes and statehood (meaning they would have begun developing early civilizations with some form of basic symbol/writing system). <That doesn't disprove your point in any way, but it's interesting none the less as it kind of goes to show that hte Protheans were somewhat grooming them for their empire.