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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#44976
Humakt83

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Commander Shepard: ""Do your job or be vaporized.""

When talking with Engineer Adams about the new Normandy.

Modifié par Humakt83, 09 novembre 2012 - 05:35 .


#44977
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ElSuperGecko wrote...

demersel wrote...
If It is correct they can do anything - like start a game at the same time ME3 is happening but with another character doing other things - and surprise surprise it does not stop after assault on earth but rather continues. If anything the rest of the galaxy might even not know what happened on earth - or that there was an assault - and we only learn that the assault already happened way into the game. 


"Our civilisations are on the brink of extinction.  Our planets lie in ruins.  We have nowhere left to run.  But how do you fight back when your greatest enemy is inside your own mind?"

"....THE HARVEST HAS BEGUN.  ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL."

MASS EFFECT 4

/voiceover

....but seriously, Javik tells us that the war with the Reapers in his cycle lasted over 500 years.  He was born AFTER the invasion started.  ME3 doesn't throw us into that kind of battle, it doesn't show us that kind of desperation.  Hell, we spend over half the game fighting Cerberus, not the Reapers.  I personally think there's so much more potential in the Reaper invasion, so much that could be done with it.

Of course, Leviathan sets up ME4 perfectly as well if you take the endings at face value.  Between the Leviathan and the Yagh you have the antagonists ready-made for the next game in the series.


I'm still half expecting either a ME3 expansion (its own disk, greatly over the size of any DLC, but with same characters and Normandy and it takes place after the ending of ME3, and its at least several main missions long (1/3-1/2 the size of base size ME3))...

Or ME4 to reflect:
-the war
-the victory
-the mystery revealed

instead of the possible representation of ME3 as...:
-the invasion
-the indoctrination/darkness
-the harvest

Bioware could, MAYBE, just be acting cagey because they haven't done an IT reveal yet, so they're just soaking up general details from players on what they want.

Geth would be removed as enemies, and either be deleted from your story if they were destroyed (which imo would be easy enough to do, if geth are given a limited enough role in the overall war), or be added in as allies (either alone or with Quarians). Same with Quarians, but without, you know, the 'not enemies any more' thing.

People may wonder about where a synthetic enemy faction would be then, and I think that either a new faction would be written up, or we just end up seeing more synthetic/shielded/techy enemies in the new factions. (Salarian husks?, Mechs sent by indoctrinated engineers?)

ME3 was focused more on Quarians, Geth, Krogan, because a ME4 may not include them *as much*, but instead put majority focus on the central Council races, and maybe Leviathan/Yahg for all we know.

I think Cerberus may be shown (IF the ending of ME3 is 'false') to be grey again, but with atrocities of ME3 on TIM's hands. He'll remain an outright antagonist, but with useful stuff needed to be victorious, and without an army to back him up. We'll see.

I can see there being two known factions: Reapers (with more husk type enemies), and Indoctrinated (with many more organic groups, somewhat similar to the gang groups in ME2). Maybe more factions, but we'll see.

I think an expansion or ME4 CAN be done in this way, but it is so up in the air, you may as treat all I typed here as headcanon.

#44978
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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

ElSuperGecko:

I doubt we will see the Leviathans moving on to the big scene any time soon.

First of even with the Reaper gone they would need alot of time to rise back towards their former control. At the moment they are weakened, dare I say even afraid of the Reaper finding them and as such their numbers and resources are quite limited.

Secondly we know about them now and even more importantly we can shield ourselves aginst their mind control as demonstrated in the Leviathan.

The way i see it they just dont pose a serius threat, at least not compared to the Reapers unless given alot of time to prepare in. Maybe sidemissions with them, but i doubt we will be thrown into a new conflict with them just yet, it would be too much of a rehearsel of the Reaper threat...only less threatening.


We would really have to be shown the Leviathans as big evil puppetmasters behind the scenes.

But so far, I interpret their presence in Mass Effect as.... more manipulative than most players think, but less evil than most ITers seem to view them.

I think they just want the galaxy back in their control, and organics back in check. I don't think they're part of, or work for the Reapers, etc. I think they're full of hubris and they STILL haven't quite clued in on that yet.

I think the biggest idea about them isn't that they're possible enemies in the future, but in fact that they may have manipulated the cycles (from 'behind the darkness' :ph34r:) to be in a place of possible resistance to the Reapers, bit by bit, cycle by cycle.

I do believe they're basically behind the Prothian cycle, and when that 'failed', they went 'eff it, we're back in total hiding, but testing this cycle to see what the hell is up'. And then Shepard comes along and they panic - "Why THIS cycle? Why did someone find us NOW? WTF. We're keeping you here and testing your mind until you die, because that's what we do."

I don't see them as absolute evils at all, but they're a little screwy, and perfect examples of how Control both bits the Controller in the ass, but also provides the possible tools for the Destroyer (Shepard) to understand what is happening and counter it.

I see TIM as a smaller scale version of that as well, but I'm waiting for more Cerberus content to really see.

#44979
ElSuperGecko

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SwobyJ wrote...
I'm still half expecting either a ME3 expansion (its own disk, greatly over the size of any DLC, but with same characters and Normandy and it takes place after the ending of ME3, and its at least several main missions long (1/3-1/2 the size of base size ME3))...


Do want!  Hell, if Dragon Age: Origins gets Awakenings, GTA IV got LATD/BOGT and Red Dead Redemption got Undead Nightmare, I see no reason why we couldn't see a seriously substantial addition to Mass Effect 3 in the form of an entirely new addition to the campaign.

An expansion with 10-15 hours more game time?  Delving deep into the mysteries of the ending, the purpose of the Crucible and the implications of the final decision?  TAKE MY MONEY BIOWARE.

Plus of course, THAT multiplayer trailer aside, Bioware is keeping curiously silent on the topic of Harbinger.  I can't help but feel that Big Evil and his Collector hordes will have some role to play in the game before the DLC cycle is up...

#44980
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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

demersel wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

demersel wrote...
Oh, yeah? And who told you that? :lol: You really should have paid attention to galaxy map and side missions in ME1, ME2, and ME3. THey take out space faring civilisations FIRST. 
 


Interesting though that the Yagh homeworld was avoided by the Reapers.


which we know from where? Brutes look remarkably like Yagh (though they are said to be mesh of krogans with turians, but really the body of a brute is the body of a Yagh, rather than of a krogan - brutes don't have a tail, like krogans do.) And besides, reapers have not even started the harvest proper - we know events of like first mounths of invasion - who'se to say they won't start harveting them in like 20 years? 


Also remember the Harvesters, they are not spacefaring, barely even sentient going from the codex entries speculation on them yet the Reapers harvested and converted them <_<




I think the Reapers just basically take everything at hand except for certain primitive yet sapient species that hold potential for future harvest. Everything else is up for grabs. I can certainly see them taking Yahg, if the war gets desperate for them (hint: even by London, its not).

The galaxy is both a crop field and an experimental lab for them.

Heh... I actually live right in the middle of an 'experimental farm' in my city :P

#44981
Restrider

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SwobyJ wrote...
I think the Reapers just basically take everything at hand except for certain primitive yet sapient species that hold potential for future harvest. Everything else is up for grabs. I can certainly see them taking Yahg, if the war gets desperate for them (hint: even by London, its not).

The galaxy is both a crop field and an experimental lab for them.

Heh... I actually live right in the middle of an 'experimental farm' in my city :P

They could easily get Yahgs as their troopers, but not harvest them in the sense to create a Reaper Dreadnaught/Destroyer.

#44982
MaximizedAction

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Feel the excitement:
twitter.com/GambleMike/status/266950993890144258
Give @Sjosz a hug for putting in some much overtime lately. He's doing it for an upcoming DLC, and it's unlike anything we've done before!

But what could it beee?

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 09 novembre 2012 - 05:46 .


#44983
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Rifneno wrote...

demersel wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

demersel wrote...
Oh, yeah? And who told you that? :lol: You really should have paid attention to galaxy map and side missions in ME1, ME2, and ME3. THey take out space faring civilisations FIRST. 
 


Interesting though that the Yagh homeworld was avoided by the Reapers.


which we know from where? Brutes look remarkably like Yagh (though they are said to be mesh of krogans with turians, but really the body of a brute is the body of a Yagh, rather than of a krogan - brutes don't have a tail, like krogans do.) And besides, reapers have not even started the harvest proper - we know events of like first mounths of invasion - who'se to say they won't start harveting them in like 20 years? 


Exactly.  Hell, Sur'Kesh wasn't invaded by the time the game ended.  Nobody thinks the salarians are being spared.  It's simply that we're in the very early stages of the war.  It's been going on a few months at most and it'll last hundreds of years.  (...)


It's stated that the galaxy's economy will pretty much flatline within a year.

But to me, that just means that with enough resistance (depends what happens on London...heh), the galaxy will enter a full-time war mode shortly, with no more space for entertainment, tourism, credit, etc industries. Everything will have to be reshaped in order to survive, stave off, and fight back against the Reapers.

If the Prothians, blocked off from the mass relays, lasted literally hundreds of years of survival (though I understand the first 100 may have had tons of fighting, the next 200-300 of struggle, and last 100 was pure survival and lifepod time), then I honestly cannot see this galaxy lasting at least a few years, instead of just 1 year tops. The major population centers and militaries may be hit, but that doesn't mean that all resistance is crushed.

It's important to note again that pretty much the entire Reaper force was separated on Palaven and Earth when ME3 started. Things of course spread, as the Reapers could afford ending 'token' Reapers to Irune, Rannoch, and eventually a larger force to Thessia (once Earth became about picking off resistance, and Palaven was holding steady for them), but its not like the Reapers are some super mega huge army whereever they go, EVERYWHERE. In most places, they left a handful of Reapers at the very most, and if we can find a way to counter those, we may win 'semi-conventionally'.

#44984
Davik Kang

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Restrider wrote...
Why should I bite your head off :o  ?

Ah I was just teasing / being melodramatic.  The thing quoted here isn't even in ME and I'm using it to make a point which is somewhat vague, which you had warned me away from recently.


@ Humakt and Andromidus, thanks for the stuff about Bailey, I had been meaning to ask about him.  Didn't know he was corrupt, it makes sense now (the conversation about Udina choosing him without him even applying for the position).


masster blaster wrote...
You see the way I see it is that the brat is the emporer and you are luke ( no vader just luke and the Dark lord) Now luke has a choice join the dark side and his friends can live. Don't join the darkside and you and your friends will die.

I know I didn't do a good comparison, but it's just a thought.

On the contrary, on this point I think you are exactly right.

#44985
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Humakt83 wrote...

I just wanted to point out that Commander Bailey sounds damn scared in Mass Effect 3.

Kind of obvious, but I think it bears mentioning.

Commander Bailey: "There's false sense of security here."
Commander Bailey: "Even people from worlds that have gone down act like they're safe."
Commander Bailey: "I guess it's not just human nature. We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror."

We also know he is corrupt and Cerberus also knows that. That is likely the reason why he was selected for Commander in the first place I think


I like Bailey. I know he's corrupt, but hey, so was Tigh in BSG and he still kicked ass.

Cerberus likely thought they could control him at some point (either via propaganda or indoctrination) but ha, no. He's not one to just fall into their hands.

#44986
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Andromidius wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

I just wanted to point out that Commander Bailey sounds damn scared in Mass Effect 3.

Kind of obvious, but I think it bears mentioning.

Commander Bailey: "There's false sense of security here."
Commander Bailey: "Even people from worlds that have gone down act like they're safe."
Commander Bailey: "I guess it's not just human nature. We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror."

We also know he is corrupt and Cerberus also knows that. That is likely the reason why he was selected for Commander in the first place I think


Aye.  Though I also like to think he's corrupt on a more personal level, or pragmatic one.  He cuts corners and deals with shadey people for a greater good, or at least a status quo.  I doubt he'd be in league with Cerberus, even though they have interest in him.

Of course, there's evidence he might be.  But hey.


Once I saw him gunned down on the docking bay, I was sure he wasn't working for Cerberus.

Sure, the elevator stuff was 'iffy', but I don't ever think he'd sacrifice C-Sec and its people for Cerberus. Ever.

#44987
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masster blaster wrote...

I don"t think Bailey is working for Cerberus, more like he is a puppet/ a tool. He I think was suppost to take the fail when the councile died. Also um


This is more likely.

Bailey is someone who won't really 'ask questions' of authority, even if he grumbles against them.

If the Council died and Udina/Cerberus took control of the station, Bailey might grumble, alert people, organize hidden resistance even.

But he'd never openly condemn the action, unlike the previous guy in charge of C-Sec. He may even be framed, or blamed for the lapse in security, whereas the previous Executor had too much respect by everyone.

#44988
Davik Kang

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SwobyJ wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I don"t think Bailey is working for Cerberus, more like he is a puppet/ a tool. He I think was suppost to take the fail when the councile died. Also um


This is more likely.

Bailey is someone who won't really 'ask questions' of authority, even if he grumbles against them.

Yes I agree that Bailey is more 'easily manipulable' rather than pro-Cerberus.

He is a man of action rather than words and one who can be convinced to do what he's told when the time comes.

Udina likely feels he has him 'in his pocket'.  Didn't he say something about attempting to arrest, and then killing,  an Udina opposer when the evidence appeared to add up?

It seems that Udina is one step ahead of him and can make things happen when necessary, no matter how he goes about it.  The whole thing sounds similar to when Udina presents 'evidence' to the VS that it was Sheaprd who killed the Turian councillor.

#44989
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ElSuperGecko wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...
I'm still half expecting either a ME3 expansion (its own disk, greatly over the size of any DLC, but with same characters and Normandy and it takes place after the ending of ME3, and its at least several main missions long (1/3-1/2 the size of base size ME3))...


Do want!  Hell, if Dragon Age: Origins gets Awakenings, GTA IV got LATD/BOGT and Red Dead Redemption got Undead Nightmare, I see no reason why we couldn't see a seriously substantial addition to Mass Effect 3 in the form of an entirely new addition to the campaign.

An expansion with 10-15 hours more game time?  Delving deep into the mysteries of the ending, the purpose of the Crucible and the implications of the final decision?  TAKE MY MONEY BIOWARE.

Plus of course, THAT multiplayer trailer aside, Bioware is keeping curiously silent on the topic of Harbinger.  I can't help but feel that Big Evil and his Collector hordes will have some role to play in the game before the DLC cycle is up...


I think an expansion is very, very possible, and *nothing* Bioware has said goes against the possibility of one.

And yeah, it would have to be at least several missions long/10-15 hours long. I'd want 5 hours of intro, 5-10 hours of exploration/missions, and 5 hours for new ending stuff, tbh.

#44990
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You know what I'm really cool with?

Not playing as Shepard in ME4.

I mean, as long as it is a sequel based on IT.. heh... I like the idea.

Imagine your Shepard being an ally if you picked Destroy, or enemy if you picked Control, or slave of the Reapers if you picked Synthesis. Or dead if you picked Refuse I guess, heh.

We could pick from multiple races, but that does make the complexity of voice acting, hard to wrap my head around.

The possibilities are staggering, but I'm currently not going to assume anything at this point, of course.

#44991
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Pick Destroy... for Liara.. youtu.be/8EaEEG7o-0A

#44992
masster blaster

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I picked it for Ash not Liara. But really I picked Destroy for everyone in the galaxy. Also I don't know Max. I wonder if he means the Citadel dlc, or maybe Project X?

#44993
Restrider

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SwobyJ wrote...

It's stated that the galaxy's economy will pretty much flatline within a year.

But to me, that just means that with enough resistance (depends what happens on London...heh), the galaxy will enter a full-time war mode shortly, with no more space for entertainment, tourism, credit, etc industries. Everything will have to be reshaped in order to survive, stave off, and fight back against the Reapers.

If the Prothians, blocked off from the mass relays, lasted literally hundreds of years of survival (though I understand the first 100 may have had tons of fighting, the next 200-300 of struggle, and last 100 was pure survival and lifepod time), then I honestly cannot see this galaxy lasting at least a few years, instead of just 1 year tops. The major population centers and militaries may be hit, but that doesn't mean that all resistance is crushed.

It's important to note again that pretty much the entire Reaper force was separated on Palaven and Earth when ME3 started. Things of course spread, as the Reapers could afford ending 'token' Reapers to Irune, Rannoch, and eventually a larger force to Thessia (once Earth became about picking off resistance, and Palaven was holding steady for them), but its not like the Reapers are some super mega huge army whereever they go, EVERYWHERE. In most places, they left a handful of Reapers at the very most, and if we can find a way to counter those, we may win 'semi-conventionally'.


I will point out something I learned during my history classes in my last years of.... grammar school?
Anyways:
I guess it is a well known fact that the Third Reich was preparing for a war since mid 1930s (not sure about the exact year and I am too lazy to look for it).
So, you would usually assume that the German industry would've been mainly focused on producing armaments, weaponry and combat vehicles in the late 1930s and the first years of WWII (being 1939-1942, where the Third Reich was clearly nailing everything on its way to total domination). Moreover the German industry being severly harassed by Allied bombardments, shortage of resources and energy (oil for example) as well as the Red Army driving the Wehrmacht/Waffen-SS back and Allied forces invading Normandy (not the ship...) and in general causing a lot of casualties, you'd say that in the years from 1943-1945 Germany would just live on the accumulated war assets from the years 1935-1942.
Well, that is not the case---
The German industry had its peak in the production of armaments, weaponry and combat vehicles in 1944!!!
Most of the cities and industrial complexes were already destroyed or damaged and the Third Reich was short on resources, energy (they even started to build experimental planes out of wood) and qualified labor force (though the use of forced labor mitigated that effect a bit).
BUT this shows what societies are capable of when they are threatened by total annihilation.
To some extent this has happened to the USSR shortly after the German invasion, but I do not know the exact numbers.

As you can see, if you cut corners and cut down the expenses on superfluous things and focus on war, a lot of potential can be freed.

#44994
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The whole 'run around Citadel for War Assets' thing just illustrates how industrious the galaxy can become, when you listen to the NPCs.

#44995
hukbum

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Restrider wrote...

As you can see, if you cut corners and cut down the expenses on superfluous things and focus on war, a lot of potential can be freed.

Sorry - stuff like that - I don't like it. Yes, Germany had it's peak in 1944 ... but "cutting coners" included the death of hundrets of thousand slaveworkers, warprisoners etc. Yes a lot of "potential" can be freed if your willing to do what they've done. Please don't use examples like that (sorry but after reading Seival's "theories" I'm quite sensitive about that topic).

#44996
MaximizedAction

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masster blaster wrote...

I picked it for Ash not Liara. But really I picked Destroy for everyone in the galaxy. Also I don't know Max. I wonder if he means the Citadel dlc, or maybe Project X?


Well that guy he referenced in the tweet was the one who tweeted something about a chunk of 'logic' he got done.
I'm not a games programmer, so I don't know if that's programmer slang...but it could be related to that.

Who knows, might be a mini flight simulator. But then, they did that already in LotSB in the skycab scene. So who knows what that new thing will be.

But I do hope it's more than just the detective part in 'Leviathan' which sure was new, but nothing really big in terms of scope. Oh well...here's to playing the waiting game.

#44997
Revan87

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Intresting:

Michael Gamble ‏@GambleMike
Give @Sjosz a hug for putting in some much overtime lately. He's doing it for an upcoming DLC, and it's unlike anything we've done before!

#44998
Home run MF

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I know there are a few BSG fans in this thread if you haven't already  you need to watch this
It's a prequel that focuses on  Adama's story during the first cylon war.

#44999
masster blaster

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Well the problem with Javik's cycle was they were divided, yet our cycle isn't. We place to much trust in one another which is good and bad.

It's bad because if someone is Indoctrinated we don't know who is. We can spot some symptims, but really can we prove that they are? Not at first, but deepending on theur actions, then yes you can say they are.

Also the Reapers went through system by system I believe. They could have left other systems alone while they harvest, well turn the Protheans into Collectors to build up their ground forces.

Then go to othersystems once they are done.

Also actually guys Earth got the hammer the most. Think about it the whole galaxy is holding their own, even the minor races, while Earth fail in hours.

Look at everyone in the galaxy, except the Batarians they already lost it all, but you can help them regain some things back. is holding down the fort.

Yes Thessia falled, but how long did it take? Months.

Turians are still holding their ground with the help of Krogan.

The Geth and Quaraians plant hasn't been attacked yet, so it gives them a chance to help everyone in need.

The Vorcha are actually helping the councile beileve it or not. The Elcor too, as well as Hanar/ Drell, and Volus.

Yet Earth got hammered hard.

Harbinger lead the attack with the main Reaper horde. If Harbinger had the whole Reaper fleet with him Earth would have been gone within a week.

The thing is if they captured the Citadel, then they would have been done within at least a 100 years or less.

In this cycle however we are throughing everything we got, instead of conserving our forces. So we are actually going head to head with the Reapers, while the Protheans did hid and run tatics do to their low numbers.

#45000
Andromidius

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Revan87 wrote...

Intresting:

Michael Gamble ‏@GambleMike
Give @Sjosz a hug for putting in some much overtime lately. He's doing it for an upcoming DLC, and it's unlike anything we've done before!


And after that, when asked if it was about Omega...
@ChubbyNinja1319 @Sjosz Naw. Omega comes out on November 27th. There's no way we'd be able to still work on it!