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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#45651
Guest_SwobyJ_*

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Davik Kang wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
I don't understand this sentiment, at all. Destroy, for me, is the hard choice. Especially if you're playing a pure Paragon Shep. You have to be willing to sacrifice your friends and allies, knowing that there are two alternatives in which they might live. From a literal POV, destroy seems like the renegade 'victory at any and all costs' option.

Shepard seems to agree with this sentiment:

Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better?
Vega: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.


The no-brains 'dumb' choice would be the 'nobody dies, we'll just make everyone the same and there will be eternal peace' synthesis option.

That's because you're thinking too hard.  Which is good, because that's how you make sure that you're picking a choice that you can stand by.  But the absolute standard thoughtless choice is also Destroy.  If a soldier goes into that room and thinks "whaddowy do?"  and remembers the mission was always to Destroy the Reapers, then he picks that.  Destroy is very juch the soldier's choice, the most basic choice, and yet also the best choice if you think about it long and hard.  Con and Syn work as traps for those who think seriously about it but don't make the final connection, and for those who can be tempted by the idea of playing God or playing dictator.  The idea of power in other words.

US Marine training ends with a final section called the Crucible, and the final hurdle of that is called the Reaper.  This final stage apparently deals with mental tests as well as physical ones, presumably to test loyalty and / or understanding of the mission, which is why at one point I was convinced that ME3 was built around the idea of marine training (bearing in mind that Shepard is a marine).


I've considered what you wrote on both paragraphs here.

Destroy is the pick for the over-thinker, and the under-thinker. As such, it'll get the majority of the picks by players, in the end.

Bioware's task was to make Synthesis and Control appealing enough that a significant segment of the playerbase would still 'fail' (I don't like to use this word here) and pick it. I picked Synthesis first, so I guess they succeeded with me :D.

As an over-thinker of these stories, I eventually picked Destory. My ME playing friend is an under-thinker (as in, he doesn't pick apart stories, but just goes for the prize/end point), and instantly picked Destroy.

Everyone else I know who was in the 'middle' (cared about stories, but not enough to pick apart all the symbols and dialogue *while playing the game*), picked Control or especially Synthesis, including the Halo 4 Narrative Designer I mentioned, but also friends of mine and my boyfriend.

And yeah, I see ME1-3 as a very 'military' (the good and the bad, even) story, and I think it has really ended that part with ME3, the Crucible.

I can see ME4 onward, taking on a more exploratory tone, or at least something not so much 'strong willed military man/woman'.

#45652
MaximizedAction

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Krimzie wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...
US Marine training ends with a final section called the Crucible, and the final hurdle of that is called the Reaper.  This final stage apparently deals with mental tests as well as physical ones, presumably to test loyalty and / or understanding of the mission, which is why at one point I was convinced that ME3 was built around the idea of marine training (bearing in mind that Shepard is a marine).


You just blew my mind. Of all the Crucible references I thought the writers may have been pulling off with that name choice, this seems the most likely. You've inspired me so I just read a summary of this training, and The Reaper occurs when the recruits (permitted only 8 hours of sleep for the 54 hour challenge) are most sleep deprived. 

Oh, if only Shepard got the Warrior's Breakfast! :(


I sure was sleep deprived during the final scenes.
But seriously, wow.

#45653
Restrider

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Crazy thought:
ME1-3 was only an Alliance Marine training simulation on the moon of Titan...

Modifié par Restrider, 11 novembre 2012 - 11:52 .


#45654
Guest_SwobyJ_*

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The Crucible Marine test has been mentioned several times before, but it's nice to see the Reaper part mentioned as well.

Frankly, regardless of the thing being a trap or not, I see the Crucible as a test for EVERYTHING, including:

-Shepard
-allies
-all the races of the galaxy
-Reapers
-Harbinger
-Leviathan?
-Alliance
-the galaxy itself, the Cycle

It's a lot larger in scope than we've even been shown, imo, but I also, so far, don't think its as 'simple' as green glowy lines or Shepard AI Reaper God.

#45655
Rifneno

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Andromidius wrote...

Yep. If in doubt, go with your gut instinct. Its usually there because it makes the most sense, and your brain works faster then your conscienceness is aware of (a weird concept).

Its kind of like when you see a good deal being advertised, and you think 'oh that's a good deal' but then wonder if its a scam. Upon further consideration it isn't, but you doubted it because you started thinking about it.

Though of course, the Crucible is a scam. So maybe that example wasn't the best.


Yep. Our subconscious has actually made most decisions long before out conscious mind comes to a decision that it has no idea was already made. Stuff like that is why I love reading about psychology. It's amazing how our minds work. And I don't mean that "you bought a muscle car so you're compensating" or "every dream means you want to do your mother" types of idiocy that gets spouted all the time and gives psychology a bad reputation.

In fact, you guys know why practice makes you so much better at action games and the like? Because by doing it enough, you form a routine in your brain. When X happens, do Y. When you're not very used to it, then you have to make a conscious decision. "When do I jump/dodge/whatever?" By having done it enough to make it a routine, conscious decision making is taken out of the equation, which gives you far superior reaction time.

What were we talking about before? ... Oh, about not getting off topic. ... I should go.

Edit: Oh, and from the Wikipedia article on US Marine training:

http://en.wikipedia....ecruit_Training

"On the final day of the Crucible, recruits are awoken and begin their
final march (including "The Reaper" a forced march up a steeply inclined
hill to the top of Edson's Ridge on the west coast)."

Shepard wakes up in front of the Conduit, walks upwards towards the final destination, towards the Reaper Harbinger.

...mind. ...blown.


Holy. ****. A platter of krogan-shaped cookies for whoever originally pointed this out.

#45656
Krimzie

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Andromidius wrote...

Edit:  Oh, and from the Wikipedia article on US Marine training:

http://en.wikipedia....ecruit_Training

"On the final day of the Crucible, recruits are awoken and begin their
final march (including "The Reaper" a forced march up a steeply inclined
hill to the top of Edson's Ridge on the west coast)."

Shepard wakes up in front of the Conduit, walks upwards towards the final destination, towards the Reaper Harbinger.

...mind.  ...blown.


Interesting that the USMC Crucible test is up a steeply inclined hill, whereas the run to the beam is down a steeply declined hill... which is a very unusual level design compared to most of ME. I suppose gravity is doing the job that training officers would do -- forcing the bodies to perform.

Modifié par Krimzie, 12 novembre 2012 - 12:02 .


#45657
MaximizedAction

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Krimzie wrote...

Interesting that the USMC Crucible test is up a steeply inclined hill, whereas the run to the beam is down a steeply declined hill... which is a very unusual level design compared to most of ME. I suppose gravity is doing the job that training officers would do -- forcing the bodies to perform.


Wouldn't want anyone having a hard time approaching the beam.  Luring via physics 101: inclined plane.

#45658
Bill Casey

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The Crucible

The Crucible is the final test in recruit training, and represents the culmination of all of the skills and knowledge a Marine should possess. Designed in 1996 to emphasize the importance of teamwork in overcoming adversity, the Crucible is a rigorous 54-hour field training exercise demanding the application of everything a recruit has learned until that point in recruit training, and includes a total of 48 miles of marching. It simulates typical combat situations with strenuous testing, hardship, and the deprivation of food and sleep. A recruit is given 2.5 MREs (= Meal Ready-to-Eat, a self-contained, individual field ration) and eight hours of sleep through the entire 54-hour event. For this event, recruits are broken into squad-sized teams (possibly smaller) and placed under the charge of one drill instructor. West Coast recruits are returned to Edson Range for the Crucible. Parris Island recruits will conduct the Crucible in the derelict Page Airfield on the south end of the depot.

Throughout the Crucible, recruits are faced with physical and mental challenges that must be accomplished before advancing further. Teamwork is stressed, as the majority of tasks are completely impossible without it; each group must succeed or fail as a whole. The others will result in failure unless every recruit passes through together, requiring the team to aid their fellow recruit(s) who struggle in the accomplishment of the given mission. Also stressed are the Corps' core values of Honor, Courage, and Commitment; events sometimes present a moral challenge. Many challenge events are named after Marine Medal of Honor recipients or otherwise notable Marines, and drill instructors will often take the time to read the citation of the award and hold a guided discussion with the recruits to evaluate their moral development. Drill instructors are also vigilant for those recruits who succeed and fail in leadership positions.

Some of the challenges encountered during the Crucible are various team and individual obstacle courses, day and night assault courses, land navigation courses, individual rushes up steep hills, large-scale martial arts challenges, and countless patrols to and from each of these. Often, these challenges are made even more difficult by the additions of limitations or handicaps, such as the requirement to carry several ammunition drums, not touching portions of an obstacle painted red to indicate simulated booby traps, and evacuating team members with simulated wounds.

On the final day of the Crucible, recruits are awoken and begin their final march (including "The Reaper" a forced march up a steeply inclined hill to the top of Edson's Ridge on the west coast). Immediately following this, recruits are offered the "Warrior's Breakfast", where they are permitted to eat as much as they like, even of previously forbidden foods, such as ice cream. Following this is the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor ceremony, where the recruits receive the eponymous emblem, and thereby cease to be recruits, finally becoming Marines.


Modifié par Bill Casey, 12 novembre 2012 - 12:19 .


#45659
Andromidius

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Rifneno wrote...
In fact, you guys know why practice makes you so much better at action games and the like? Because by doing it enough, you form a routine in your brain. When X happens, do Y. When you're not very used to it, then you have to make a conscious decision. "When do I jump/dodge/whatever?" By having done it enough to make it a routine, conscious decision making is taken out of the equation, which gives you far superior reaction time.


*hears Banshee scream*

*instantly runs backwards towards teammates*

Yep, my instincts were right.  Run the hell away.

-----

Isn't the bit of the conduit run right after Shepard gets up level off then slowly start rising again?  And then goes straight up (the beam itself) and then you go up a steep ramp to the control room, then straight up again in the elevator?

Yeah.  I think someone with knowledge of military training designed the whole end sequence.  Genius.  They even make a point of having Shepard exhausted and deprived of sleep!

#45660
Andromidius

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Okay, so someone needs to write that all down in an article-like fashion so it can be placed on the front page along with all the other evidence. Because honestly, that's pretty huge.

Who was it who thought it up first?

#45661
Davik Kang

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Rifneno wrote...

Holy. ****. A platter of krogan-shaped cookies for whoever originally pointed this out.

Thanks.  Send them to No. 1, London, England, UK please.

I thought I'd mentioned this before strangely, I must've forgotten.

Basically it's a test to see if Shepard can stick to his guns and complete the mission.  When I found this I assumed it was the inspiration for the whole story.  I chatted to someone about it but I guess it wasn't in this thread.

#45662
Davik Kang

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Andromidius wrote...
Isn't the bit of the conduit run right after Shepard gets up level off then slowly start rising again?  And then goes straight up (the beam itself) and then you go up a steep ramp to the control room, then straight up again in the elevator?

Yeah.  I think someone with knowledge of military training designed the whole end sequence.  Genius.  They even make a point of having Shepard exhausted and deprived of sleep!


The steep bits are in the Citadel, in the Cerberus base, and I think also in the Geth / Quarian war mission too.

#45663
masster blaster

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The Crucible is a test, and the Catalyst is the judge.

If we we refuse him he kills Shepard. If Shepard Destroys the Reapers he/she is free. Freedom is not won without a price.
Synthesis it what it wanted from the start. Control you become the villan your were trying to kill.

Yes there is always a second chance right, but sometimes people don't deserve a second chance. The brat had at least a billion years to solve a problem. Maybe nature/ evolution didn't want Synthesis at all. It's viewed as bad. So is Control.

Destroy is viewed as freedom.

Yes refuse, but we make our own future in Destroy, in refuse we don't. Not until the Reapers are gone, only then can we build our own future.

And when I mean our own I me Shepard and the galaxy. We don't have to live in fear. That's the only reason why people can't pick Destroy because of Edi, and the Geth. If they didn't have to die, then hey what is the point of Synthesis, and Control?

#45664
ZerebusPrime

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Davik Kang wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Holy. ****. A platter of krogan-shaped cookies for whoever originally pointed this out.

Thanks.  Send them to No. 1, London, England, UK please.

I thought I'd mentioned this before strangely, I must've forgotten.

Basically it's a test to see if Shepard can stick to his guns and complete the mission.  When I found this I assumed it was the inspiration for the whole story.  I chatted to someone about it but I guess it wasn't in this thread.


The Reaper run for the USMC was mentioned in the first Indoc. Theory thread, IIRC. :D

And possibly again in the second.

Honestly, who can keep track of it all?

#45665
Davik Kang

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ZerebusPrime wrote...
The Reaper run for the USMC was mentioned in the first Indoc. Theory thread, IIRC. :D

And possibly again in the second.

Honestly, who can keep track of it all?

I still want cookies.  I've only been here about 7 weeks.  And I brought it up 6 weeks ago (in my ending support thread, instead of here, unfortunately).

#45666
masster blaster

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Oreo's or Chips Ahoy David? That's all I have or Cookie cake?

#45667
Davik Kang

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masster blaster wrote...

Oreo's or Chips Ahoy David? That's all I have or Cookie cake?

Well, I'm waiting for Rifneno's cookies but additonal cookies would be welcome.  Maybe post a pic so I can at least imagine eating them?  :D

#45668
masster blaster

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Ya sorry you took so long I ate them all. Oops I forgot the milk. Na Badger will find you a cookie. Oh and nice work Bill. This is only the beginning.

#45669
masster blaster

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45,669 post



305,909 views
Man I remeber Mark 1 was in the millions, and so was 2, now we are in the thousands. Well it's still a pretty goo number, and were actually the longest thread.

If Bioware never shut down Mark 1 just picture it.

#45670
Davik Kang

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Well as it's gone a bit quiet in here...

People were talking about the "fall from space" earlier in regards to the Breath scene. But does anyone actually believe this?

Afaik, everyone who thinks Shepard didn't leave Earth thinks he wakes up in London. Everyone who thinks he made it to the Citadel thinks he awakes on the Citadel.

I've never heard someone claim that Shepard survives a fall through Earth's atmosphere to appear in London for the breath scene.

#45671
MWMike2011

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Davik Kang wrote...

Well as it's gone a bit quiet in here...

People were talking about the "fall from space" earlier in regards to the Breath scene. But does anyone actually believe this?

Afaik, everyone who thinks Shepard didn't leave Earth thinks he wakes up in London. Everyone who thinks he made it to the Citadel thinks he awakes on the Citadel.

I've never heard someone claim that Shepard survives a fall through Earth's atmosphere to appear in London for the breath scene.


I've heard a few people theorizing that Shepard might be on a different planet. You know, because that is much more logical than anything else...:blink:

#45672
BleedingUranium

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Davik Kang wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...
The Reaper run for the USMC was mentioned in the first Indoc. Theory thread, IIRC. :D

And possibly again in the second.

Honestly, who can keep track of it all?

I still want cookies.  I've only been here about 7 weeks.  And I brought it up 6 weeks ago (in my ending support thread, instead of here, unfortunately).


I've been here since about page 400 in Mk.I, and I had seen the Crucible test comparison, but I didn't come across the details, including the Reaper run before Posted Image

Thanks for posting it (again) Posted Image

#45673
masster blaster

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Well david um I would post more but byne and the others Estebauns mostly kept getting mad at me for over posting. So I tend to wait now unless an hour has passed or ya.

And yes people have clamed that Shepard survives Earth's rentry and lans in London. Don't ask me how it started, but ya.

#45674
masster blaster

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So the Illusive man was right after all?

#45675
CmdrShep80

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Restrider wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Well the other anti IT thread got locked down, and now the no this and no that thread got locked down. I guess this day is a lock down day, and oh me we are ever getting closer to 2000 get ready for Mark 4 people.

To be fair, it was not an anti-IT thread, it was just a poster genuinely wanting to know more about the theory. Of course it would've been way more reasonable to just ask the questions in this thread, because this thread has already immunity against the troll hordes (bloodily earned during the Morning Troll Wars in Mark I and II). Maybe the original poster was afraid to post here, since the reputation of the people here is... not the best, sadly.
Yet the literalists, haters and anti-enders swarmed the thread and turned it into an anti-IT thread.

If the creator of that thread is reading this, hi there, feel welcome.


since I'm missing this, which thread was it?