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[spotlessvoid]

The problem Pax is risk vs reward

The reward: Reaper Tech. The Protheans already started figuring out the relays. The previous cycles were harvested before getting too advanced, so is there really that much to be gained?

The Risk:.AI is still around in synthesis. What if he decides the outcome isn't satisfactory? And what if someone knows what TIM figured out and takes control of the Reapers from Shepard?

And that's going off the catalyst is completely honest best case scenario.

Way too much risk vs insufficient reward
Absolutely not worth the risk, even if you like the idea of ShepReaper Dictatorship or Synthesis Voodoo, the potential for devastating consequences isn't worth saving the geth

[spotlessvoid]

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

A tiny fragment of Sovereign can indoctrinate

An interesting thing is that if the Doc has measures to prevent himself from being indoctrinated, why don't we get to know them and why the Alliance don't use those upgrades.

Maybe because you can't wrap a live Reaper in a shield.

[byne]

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

A tiny fragment of Sovereign can indoctrinate

An interesting thing is that if the Doc has measures to prevent himself from being indoctrinated, why don't we get to know them and why the Alliance don't use those upgrades.

The anti-indoctrination shielding in the lab always bugged me. Shep and EDI just act like that kind of shielding has always been around and is something I should have been aware of, when really it just came out of nowhere.

[Rifneno]

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

A tiny fragment of Sovereign can indoctrinate

An interesting thing is that if the Doc has measures to prevent himself from being indoctrinated, why don't we get to know them and why the Alliance don't use those upgrades.

The anti-indoctrination shielding in the lab always bugged me. Shep and EDI just act like that kind of shielding has always been around and is something I should have been aware of, when really it just came out of nowhere.

I thought the shielding was only for the Leviathan version?

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

The problem Pax is risk vs reward

The reward: Reaper Tech. The Protheans already started figuring out the relays. The previous cycles were harvested before getting too advanced, so is there really that much to be gained?

The Risk:.AI is still around in synthesis. What if he decides the outcome isn't satisfactory? And what if someone knows what TIM figured out and takes control of the Reapers from Shepard?

And that's going off the catalyst is completely honest best case scenario.

Way too much risk vs insufficient reward
Absolutely not worth the risk, even if you like the idea of ShepReaper Dictatorship or Synthesis Voodoo, the potential for devastating consequences isn't worth saving the geth

Look at it from the other side. If someone's discovered TIM's work and attempts to seize control of the Reapers, nothing changes, the war goes on as it did. We already know that TIM was unable to learn how to command a Reaper so anyone else would be equally unsuccessful.

In Synthesis, there's no AI nor Organics. The new species is a hybrid called Synergics. The Catalyst is no more too. The Singularity has been achieved.

EDIT: There's no need to subsequently try and take control of the Reapers because they are already being Controled by Shepard. The war is over and peace restored. Yay!

Modifié par paxxton, 14 novembre 2012 - 12:38 .

[byne]

Rifneno wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

A tiny fragment of Sovereign can indoctrinate

An interesting thing is that if the Doc has measures to prevent himself from being indoctrinated, why don't we get to know them and why the Alliance don't use those upgrades.

The anti-indoctrination shielding in the lab always bugged me. Shep and EDI just act like that kind of shielding has always been around and is something I should have been aware of, when really it just came out of nowhere.

I thought the shielding was only for the Leviathan version?

No, Shepard or EDI (cant remember which right now) asks if Bryson had properly shielded the Sovereign fragment to protect against indoctrination, so apparently there is indoctrination shielding now, we've just never heard of it.

[paxxton]

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

A tiny fragment of Sovereign can indoctrinate

An interesting thing is that if the Doc has measures to prevent himself from being indoctrinated, why don't we get to know them and why the Alliance don't use those upgrades.

The anti-indoctrination shielding in the lab always bugged me. Shep and EDI just act like that kind of shielding has always been around and is something I should have been aware of, when really it just came out of nowhere.

As well as the Anti-Enthrallment shield. It looks like Organics are more resourceful than we thought.

[Rifneno]

byne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

A tiny fragment of Sovereign can indoctrinate

An interesting thing is that if the Doc has measures to prevent himself from being indoctrinated, why don't we get to know them and why the Alliance don't use those upgrades.

The anti-indoctrination shielding in the lab always bugged me. Shep and EDI just act like that kind of shielding has always been around and is something I should have been aware of, when really it just came out of nowhere.

I thought the shielding was only for the Leviathan version?

No, Shepard or EDI (cant remember which right now) asks if Bryson had properly shielded the Sovereign fragment to protect against indoctrination, so apparently there is indoctrination shielding now, we've just never heard of it.

...  Ow, my brain... 

[spotlessvoid]

It was EDI. And although my head spun when I heard it, I guess figuring out (or thinking you have lol) how to shield against indoctrination from a piece of Reaper is far different than protecting yourself from a conscious Reaper, so it yes it seemed odd but isn't total hand waving bs.

[BleedingUranium]

spotlessvoid wrote...

It was EDI. And although my head spun when I heard it, I guess figuring out (or thinking you have lol) how to shield against indoctrination from a piece of Reaper is far different than protecting yourself from a conscious Reaper, so it yes it seemed odd but isn't total hand waving bs.

I would assume that all Reaper tech, like that piece, emit infrasound and thus cause low level indoctrination. As in, an actual Reaper consciousness would be needed to influence the subject's thoughts. Since there's no mind, just the fragment, it may simply be a shield that blocks infrasound, which is plausible.

[Andromidius]

I imagine such a field would be difficult to maintain over long periods, not be very portable, and may only give partial protection. Hense its fine for a small fragment in lab, but not really good for active defense. Much like how lead is good for radiation shielding, but terrible for personal protection.

[Home run MF]

paxxton wrote...

The Derelict Reaper underwent an uncontrolled shutdown which left some systems still operational. In Control you can order a Reaper to completely turn itself off so that people can board and explore safely.

Examining tech in pieces (damaged after explosions) gives limited insight into its structure and virtually no insight into its operation.

From the codex:

 "After the Battle of the Citadel, human and turian volunteers spent three months clearing the station's orbit of debris. During the cleanup, the turians secretly salvaged Sovereign's powerful main gun along with much of the weapon's element zero core. Eleven months later, the turians introduced the Thanix, a scaled-down version of the weapon."

So their main gun can be reverse engineered and indoctrination shielded?  Control just keeps getting better and better...

[BleedingUranium]

Home run MF wrote...

paxxton wrote...

The Derelict Reaper underwent an uncontrolled shutdown which left some systems still operational. In Control you can order a Reaper to completely turn itself off so that people can board and explore safely.

Examining tech in pieces (damaged after explosions) gives limited insight into its structure and virtually no insight into its operation.

From the codex:

 "After the Battle of the Citadel, human and turian volunteers spent three months clearing the station's orbit of debris. During the cleanup, the turians secretly salvaged Sovereign's powerful main gun along with much of the weapon's element zero core. Eleven months later, the turians introduced the Thanix, a scaled-down version of the weapon."

So their main gun can be reverse engineered and indoctrination shielded?  Control just keeps getting better and better...

There's never been anything wrong with reverse engineering Reaper tech, because that's no really Reaper tech, just Reaper designed.

It's just like Legion's code in ME3: he's not really giving the Geth the Reaper code, he's giving them his own code he wrote using the Reaper code as a base and reference. Also, just like the Prothean mass relay.

Put another way, it's the difference between using a toaster made out of uranium, and using a toaster based on the design of the radioactive toaster that isn't itself radioactive.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 14 novembre 2012 - 12:39 .

[spotlessvoid]

Obviously I'm missing something, but what do you mean control keeps getting better HRMF?

[masster blaster]

What if the Normandy is made out of Nazar. I mean some areas of the ship. It would make sense. TIM now had the tech to create a bigger bader Normandy, and at the time he had Reaper implants at his disposale? It's just a thought, not saying the Normandy is, yet I am sure Legion, or EDI would comfirm to Shepard that Nazar's armor wasn't intergrated with the Normandy.


Oh and 1 more thing while I was doing nothing but think, I had a lot of time to think, and then it hit me when Joker unlocks Edi's shackells, She tells us everything about

The Normandy

How many Cerberus groups are there, and so on. I wonder why didn't Edi tell use she was the rogue Luna VI that just started to gain self awarness? And why didn't TIM really help Shepard.

When we look at the video logs in ME3 on TIM's base, when the woman asked TIM that shouldn't they ( Cerberus) use what forces they have, yet TIM is like. " No I want Shepard invested".

For what purpose? If gave use full Control of his group, then maybe we could have stoped the Collectors early, but no he doesn't. He goes to the trouble to create the Normandy again, and find out who is the most deadlist people alive/ the smartes, and so on.

What bothers me though is that it was Cerberus that wanted to create the SR1 Normandy. If TIM was being Indoctrinated at the time, then what was the purpose of it all?

Did TIM take intrest in Shepard ever since Shepard joined the Alliance? Or maybe Anderson? i don't really know quite frank what isn't Cerberus, or the Reapers desgin/ tech.

Because Cerberus is more advanced than the Asari, and Salarians. I mean come on you mean to tell me Humanity is better at hiding a base that sticks out like a sore thumb, and nobody can find it?

Oh and guys um did anyone else notice that Nazar was just right above the Prothean beacon, and Saren an Indoctrinated agent managed to see the visions, so what's the possibility that the Reapers didn't use the Prothean Indoctrinated agents to tamper with the beacons?

[Home run MF]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Obviously I'm missing something, but what do you mean control keeps getting better HRMF?

There is a reason the Reapers only harvest advanced civilazations, they can threaten them as proved by refuse, if the galaxy is prepared they can be defeated.

In control there is no blank slate in technology, the Reapers are still present and who is to say another Illusive Man can't start messing around? What is "Shepard" supposed to do?

You didn't stop the cycle you just put someone else in charge.

[masster blaster]

Does anyone here remember what Shepard says when he, or she wakes up after the Prothean beacon is Destroyed.

Wait never mind.

I...I don't know what I saw. Death, Destruction nothing is really clear.

What if the Reapers are using the Prothean cipher to show Shepard the future??????

I mean it can explain the epilogue slides, yet Destroy is diffrent. The Reapers use everything Shepard has done, and create what the future may hold. It explains why it's called flash forward.

Hello when Shepard saw the Protheans getting harvested, it was a flash forward of a warning. Get it guys what we are seeing is a warning. Everything is not clear, just like Commander Shepard said in ME1, when he, or she saw the Prothean visions.

Yet as Shepard in ME1 went around the galaxy, over time when other Asari would unlock more of Shepard's Prothean Cipher, the visions became more clearer. Now every time we add a dlc the ending would become more clear. We are already on the right track, but until we get the final dlc. Shepard can't fully wake up. He/she is already doind so in Destroy, but not the other endings.

Though refuse can go both was.

[spotlessvoid]

I thought you meant something like that HF, just wasn't sure

[DoomsdayDevice]

Rifneno wrote...

hukbum wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I can't remember off the top of my head.

Zhatil (don't know if spelled right) in Javiks cycle. Same pattern.

Speaking of which, I still say those things wound up being seeker swarms.

I had that same thought. The seeker swarms could be Zha'Til.

However... I don't actually recall Javik mentioning that the Reapers were responsible for the Zha'Til. IIRC, all he says is that the people upgraded themselves, and the AI took control of them.

Shepard: You mentioned before your people had problems with AI.
Javik: The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle.
Shepard: What happened?
Javik: Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence.
Shepard: I think I know where this is going.
Javik: The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters.

Is it anywhere said explicitly that the Reapers were responsible? If so, I'd like to see a source. =)

Does anyone know?

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 14 novembre 2012 - 01:19 .

[shadoww6021]

for some reason i never considered control ( this was when i was fully indoctrinated and ended picking synthesis). i think it was really out of spite for TIM, i could never accept that the illusive man was right, even if Shepard had. Though in hindsight from a literal point of view, it really was the "best" ending, though not from a IT point of view.

[Andromidius]

Alright. So I just did my own playthrough of Leviathan. I gleemed a few thoughts from the final conversation:

1/ For a race so hell-bent on being secretive, they sure do spill the beans the moment Shepard gets close to them. Almost eager to discuss their history, infact. That alone is suspitious.

2/ "The Intelligence." Leviathan never states that its an AI, or even a machine. Shepard says that, and Leviathan merely doesn't comment on whether or not that's correct. Combined with the blatant lies of ignorance on the Crucible (yes, that pause and focus in on the sidewards glance was very obvious), its evident that Leviathan isn't happy with Shepard knowing the full truth.

3/ Leviathans. Supposedly they are the basis for the basic Sovereign class design. However, since they state Harbinger is the first, its weird that Harbinger doesn't actually share the number of limbs they have - lacking the central limb. Also, their overall shape is actually somewhat different to Reapers. Not sure what to think of that, but it is odd.

4/ How they were defeated. They gloss over the details. Quite how they are defeated when they never state "The Intelligence" as being a weapon, and the fact they control the other races, isn't stated. Merely that they were suprised. With what, exactly? The Intelligence apperently didn't even have Reapers to overthrow them with yet.

5/ Ease of convincing otherwise. They go from "we're doing nothing, and you are own slave" to "okay, we'll fight" from a very short speech. Sure, they might be afraid that the Reapers now know where they are hiding - but...

a/ They can apperently instant-kill Reapers in close proximity. Kill that one, or any others that come close, and they are safe still.
b/ If they can't leave that planet, then what is protecting them whether they fight or not?
c/ If they can leave that planet, then they can hide somewhere else without much trouble surely?

Overall, just... Yeah. Leviathans can't be trusted, not in the slightest. The fact they blantantly show Shepard can be controlled, and have his/her memories used to construct an illusion just about says it all.

[shadoww6021]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...


...snip...


Javik: The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters.

sounds a bit too much like synthesis for my liking.

Modifié par shadoww6021, 14 novembre 2012 - 01:31 .

[masster blaster]

DD I think he ment that the Reapers used the Synthetics of Javiks cycle against them. Just like they are using the Geth. This so called I preserve Synthetics, and Organics is bs.

If it wanted to, then take a male, and female Organic, and a Synthetic, and their was that so hard, but no it had to harvest the whole races of Each cycle, well the ones that were worth to be harvested. Furthermore I don't believe this isn't the first time or second time the Reapers use Synthetics to kill Organics.

No I believe Harbinger aka the brat AI used the Synthetics in it's cycle to create a body in the shape of his creators to honor them by making them become the first races to be Harvested. Once his Synthetics did their job he installed it's form into Harbinger and then harvested his cycle.

Later as everything was harvested, Harbinger gathered his hacked Synthetics, and new Reapers to create the Citadel, and the Mass Relays. It is when Harbinger created the Keepers to order them gaurd the Citadel, and wait for Harbinger signal while he and his Reapers go into dark space and rest. Then it's just history in the making from here on out.

[DoomsdayDevice]

@ Andromidius: good observations, but you missed the biggest implications for IT:

A. The mind control scene exactly parallels the first moment in the decision chamber.

Shep is on hands and knees, on the floor, Ann walks over and says 'breathe'.
Shep is on hands and knees, on the floor, child walks over and says 'wake up'.

Since we know Shep isn't on the floor, but in the mech-suit, and we know Ann isn't Ann, but the Leviathan speaking, and there is mind control going on in, this parallel seems to say:

1. You're not on the Citadel.
2. This is not the child speaking to you.
3. Your mind is being messed with.

Also: breathe/wake up: breath scene reference #378.

B. The Leviathan says it can read your mind (your nature will be revealed to us), that it can build illusions from your memories (your memories will give voice to our words), while showing you different people and even objects, and then goes on to explain that all the Reapers have this ability to influence organics, and that over countless cycles, they have perfected this technique to indoctrination.

So in other words: the Reapers can do what the Leviathans can do, only a zillion times better. It's basically Bioware saying: hey, the entire ending could be an illusion!

Also, the sound you hear when Shepard zaps in and out of the mind control is the exact same sound you hear when Shep zaps out of the tube on the Citadel in the ending.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 14 novembre 2012 - 01:42 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

masster blaster wrote...

DD I think he ment that the Reapers used the Synthetics of Javiks cycle against them. Just like they are using the Geth. This so called I preserve Synthetics, and Organics is bs.

Yeah, I understand the implication, I'm just looking for explicit mentions of the Reapers being involved with the Zha'Til. Not just that which is implied. =)

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 14 novembre 2012 - 01:44 .