80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Andromidius]

paxxton wrote...
It's a good point. But Vendetta had listened to Asari for ages. He translated his output to Asari and then the squadies' Universal Translators translated it to their languages. I know it sounds like stretching but it could happen.

I don't think Vendetta was active at all during that time.  The fact the first thing it does when active is work out what time it is suggests that it didn't initially have a clue.  And it hadn't been activated by the Asari before for them to later turn it off since they didn't have a Prothean cypher.

[MegumiAzusa]

Andromidius wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
They had the beacons to communicate.

That is true.  However, how does it know Javik personally?  Unless its got the same technology that simulates the Prothean's ability to sense thoughts.  Though in which case...  Too many plotholes to worry about.

Javik was the Shepard of the Protheans. Well known and highranking obviously.

[Andromidius]

dorktainian wrote...

Star Brat is Sovereign. He's not dead.

I'm inclined towards that conclusion as well.  Maybe not by design, but by chance, Sovereign managed to upload into the Citadel.  Maybe not all of it, maybe even only a fragment, and hense needed a few years to recompile itself and formulate a plan.

Would also give Cerberus another reason to infilitrate the Citadel, they may have been manipulated into assisting Sovereign gain control of the Citadel.  Who then hands the Citadel over to the Reapers without a fight once the Crucible is completed and ready for deployment.

[demersel]

Infiltrator. But i know that it is easy mode. It is just that my canon shepard is an infiltrator ever since ME1.

[CmdrShep80]

Actually vendetta you can't trust because Cerberus was there before you. Who knows which part of vendetta got screwed with. Ditto with Javik in the sense that he could still be experiencing low levels of indoctrination. Remember he was arguing to keep all the Protheans alive (yes I know most everyone would too)

Probably the only one you can trust is Tali if she didn't take the suit off for any reason. Magnetite's vid suggests that if you have speakers relaying audio information that it cant properly interpret sounds such as infrasounds. So Tali unless you romance her might be the least indoctrinated person on the ship

[paxxton]

Andromidius wrote...

paxxton wrote...
It's a good point. But Vendetta had listened to Asari for ages. He translated his output to Asari and then the squadies' Universal Translators translated it to their languages. I know it sounds like stretching but it could happen.

I don't think Vendetta was active at all during that time.  The fact the first thing it does when active is work out what time it is suggests that it didn't initially have a clue.  And it hadn't been activated by the Asari before for them to later turn it off since they didn't have a Prothean cypher.

Hard to tell, but we know that the asari government knows about it.

[Andromidius]

paxxton wrote...
Hard to tell, but we know that the asari government knows about it.

They know about the Beacon.  And Vendetta seems to be the only Beacon we've encountered that has a VI program attached to it.  Its possible that information can be gained from Beacons without cipher, it would just be very difficult and time consuming.

[MegumiAzusa]

If Cerberus had access to Vendetta to temper with it they could have been there and gone before Shep even arrived.

[MegumiAzusa]

Andromidius wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Hard to tell, but we know that the asari government knows about it.

They know about the Beacon.  And Vendetta seems to be the only Beacon we've encountered that has a VI program attached to it.  Its possible that information can be gained from Beacons without cipher, it would just be very difficult and time consuming.

It's not a simple beacon or archive. Just look at the size of the stuff beneath.

[Andromidius]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

If Cerberus had access to Vendetta to temper with it they could have been there and gone before Shep even arrived.

Unless they wanted Shepard to know about it, and indirectly lead Shepard back to their apperently base of operations.  Why?  So Shepard would be exposed to the Proto-Reaper, and so Shepard could then access a fully tampered with Vendetta.

All cloak and shadows.

[demersel]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

If Cerberus had access to Vendetta to temper with it they could have been there and gone before Shep even arrived.

Unless they did all the tempering for Shepard's sole benefit.

[Andromidius]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
It's not a simple beacon or archive. Just look at the size of the stuff beneath.

Its still the only Beacon with an attached VI, even if there's more underneith.  Also the only Beacon that doesn't pick up Shepard in a biotic field while its being accessed.

[hiraeth]

Question: When the Catalyst tells you that he betrayed the Leviathans because they were a part of the problem and just didn't know it- do you buy it?

[Andromidius]

demersel wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

If Cerberus had access to Vendetta to temper with it they could have been there and gone before Shep even arrived.

Unless they did all the tempering for Shepard's sole benefit.

Indeed.  There are various hints that TIM is fighting indoctrination, laying hints and clues in his wake that will eventually undo him.

[Andromidius]

MassEffectFShep wrote...

Question: When the Catalyst tells you that he betrayed the Leviathans because they were a part of the problem and just didn't know it- do you buy it?

No.

The only legitimate reason to turn on the Leviathan would be to end their tyranny on the Galaxy, and let other life achieve its true potential.  But then when they converted Leviathans into Harbinger, they also aborbed the Leviathan's lust for power and control.

That's my take on it at least.

Edit: Also, Leviathan says "The Intelligence" wasn't a mistake.  Which is strange.  Almost like they were part of their overall plan.  Quite why, I don't know.  It may have just been pure hubris at refusing to admit a mistake, even one like the Reapers.

Modifié par Andromidius, 14 novembre 2012 - 04:35 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Andromidius wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

If Cerberus had access to Vendetta to temper with it they could have been there and gone before Shep even arrived.

Unless they wanted Shepard to know about it, and indirectly lead Shepard back to their apperently base of operations.  Why?  So Shepard would be exposed to the Proto-Reaper, and so Shepard could then access a fully tampered with Vendetta.

All cloak and shadows.

Which wouldn't make much sense. If Cerberus were Reaper controlled the Reapers could just indoctrinate them on a whim, they were close enough, if not just let one walk by, but hey even while Shep is solo beneath the Reaper on Tuchanka and solo on Rannoch they don't use that and they are fully built. If Cerberus is not Reaper controlled your theory doesn't make sense at all.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Davik Kang wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Smudboy is the anti-Clevernoob. Both go too far. Both started with good points, but quickly devolved into opinion and inaccuracy and nitpicking.

We need more balance.

Spot on.

Unfortunately, when some people have made up their mind about something, all they want to hear is that someone else agrees with them.  Many will agree with any statement, no matter how poorly constructed, illogical or childish it may be, if it suports their own view.

And not wanting to be wrong seems like the #1 driving force on these forums.  It never ceases to amaze me how few people will concede even a single point about anything.

Couldn't agree more.

I absolutely can't stand Clevernoob. The first time I saw his 'documentary' (that word alone, ugh), I was so severely annoyed by him that I instantly understood why people hate IT.

He's just drawing many conclusions that most people here would disagree with. He's incredibly long-winded and repeats everything several times over, in this lecturing voice that sounds like he's explaining things to five-year-olds.

He seems like this guy who goes solo with all his ideas and doesn't get any proper peer review. At least what we do, is come up with stuff and then we all have our say on whether we think it's legit or not. It's a consensus system.

Not saying we're better, it just seems more balanced. I really can't watch his stuff.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 14 novembre 2012 - 04:40 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Andromidius wrote...

MassEffectFShep wrote...

Question: When the Catalyst tells you that he betrayed the Leviathans because they were a part of the problem and just didn't know it- do you buy it?

No.

The only legitimate reason to turn on the Leviathan would be to end their tyranny on the Galaxy, and let other life achieve its true potential.  But then when they converted Leviathans into Harbinger, they also aborbed the Leviathan's lust for power and control.

That's my take on it at least.

Edit: Also, Leviathan says "The Intelligence" wasn't a mistake.  Which is strange.  Almost like they were part of their overall plan.  Quite why, I don't know.  It may have just been pure hubris at refusing to admit a mistake, even one like the Reapers.

This is emotion and morality speaking. Strictly logical the Leviathans are indeed part of the problem and what the Reapers do is their programmed response. There was no mistake, the harvest must continue.

[demersel]

Anyway, conversation with Vendetta on thessia doesn't give you any inforamtion - so it is perfectly reasonable to assume that Kai Leng was there before you, but was unable to retrive the VI on his own - so he waited for Shepard to activate it. Same as with Javik's pod. Then he took the VI, and then on cronos cerberus extracted all the information that they needed, and reprogrammed it to be a trap for Shepard, if he locates it (he is known to be persistent, so the chance that he would find the illusive man's base after he's given a reason to is a pretty safe one - after the info is extracted - cronos base becomes an acceptable loss and is instead turned into a trap for competition - Shepard - there is no one other that troops and Kai Leng - no scientists. - the base is empty. Except for the troops, and Kai Leng, and a human reaper - and the first two are clearly there to keep you busy and slow you down - so you spend time inside. Near a reaper tech. What happens to those who spend time near reaper tech?)

[hiraeth]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

MassEffectFShep wrote...

Question: When the Catalyst tells you that he betrayed the Leviathans because they were a part of the problem and just didn't know it- do you buy it?

No.

The only legitimate reason to turn on the Leviathan would be to end their tyranny on the Galaxy, and let other life achieve its true potential.  But then when they converted Leviathans into Harbinger, they also aborbed the Leviathan's lust for power and control.

That's my take on it at least.

Edit: Also, Leviathan says "The Intelligence" wasn't a mistake.  Which is strange.  Almost like they were part of their overall plan.  Quite why, I don't know.  It may have just been pure hubris at refusing to admit a mistake, even one like the Reapers.

This is emotion and morality speaking. Strictly logical the Leviathans are indeed part of the problem and what the Reapers do is their programmed response. There was no mistake, the harvest must continue.

I get that the Leviathans are strictly speaking a part of the problem (I mean, they created the species that then created species that turned on them), and I get that the Leviathans creating the Intelligence to fix the problem is also a part of the problem (they created the Intelligence, so really anything the Intelligence does in, in some part, because of its creator which gave it existence). But, something just seems off. I was also confused when Leviathan said that the Intelligence wasn't a mistake, but then proceeds to talk about how he will fight the reapers. Why does he agree to fight the reapers and express negative emotion toward them if he agrees that they're not a mistake? Would he just back off and support whatever the Intelligence does?

[hiraeth]

Andromidius wrote...

MassEffectFShep wrote...

Question: When the Catalyst tells you that he betrayed the Leviathans because they were a part of the problem and just didn't know it- do you buy it?

No.

The only legitimate reason to turn on the Leviathan would be to end their tyranny on the Galaxy, and let other life achieve its true potential.  But then when they converted Leviathans into Harbinger, they also aborbed the Leviathan's lust for power and control.

That's my take on it at least.

Edit: Also, Leviathan says "The Intelligence" wasn't a mistake.  Which is strange.  Almost like they were part of their overall plan.  Quite why, I don't know.  It may have just been pure hubris at refusing to admit a mistake, even one like the Reapers.

Yeah, I wanted Leviathan to pull a Mordin and go "I MADE A MISTAKE!"

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Smudboy is the anti-Clevernoob. Both go too far. Both started with good points, but quickly devolved into opinion and inaccuracy and nitpicking.

We need more balance.

Spot on.

Unfortunately, when some people have made up their mind about something, all they want to hear is that someone else agrees with them.  Many will agree with any statement, no matter how poorly constructed, illogical or childish it may be, if it suports their own view.

And not wanting to be wrong seems like the #1 driving force on these forums.  It never ceases to amaze me how few people will concede even a single point about anything.

Couldn't agree more.

I absolutely can't stand Clevernoob. The first time I saw his 'documentary' (that word alone, ugh), I was so severely annoyed by him that I instantly understood why people hate IT.

He's just drawing many conclusions that most people here would disagree with. He's incredibly long-winded and repeats everything several times over, in this lecturing voice that sounds like he's explaining things to five-year-olds.

He seems like this guy who goes solo with all his ideas and doesn't get any proper peer review. At least what we do, is come up with stuff and then we all have our say on whether we think it's legit or not. It's a consensus system.

Not saying we're better, it just seems more balanced. I really can't watch his stuff.

My problem was he made 3 blatant errors in the first 20 minutes. For example saying there are no piles of bodies before you get stunned by Harbinger while in the video he showed with him making the beam run you could see the piles.

[MegumiAzusa]

MassEffectFShep wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

MassEffectFShep wrote...

Question: When the Catalyst tells you that he betrayed the Leviathans because they were a part of the problem and just didn't know it- do you buy it?

No.

The only legitimate reason to turn on the Leviathan would be to end their tyranny on the Galaxy, and let other life achieve its true potential.  But then when they converted Leviathans into Harbinger, they also aborbed the Leviathan's lust for power and control.

That's my take on it at least.

Edit: Also, Leviathan says "The Intelligence" wasn't a mistake.  Which is strange.  Almost like they were part of their overall plan.  Quite why, I don't know.  It may have just been pure hubris at refusing to admit a mistake, even one like the Reapers.

This is emotion and morality speaking. Strictly logical the Leviathans are indeed part of the problem and what the Reapers do is their programmed response. There was no mistake, the harvest must continue.

I get that the Leviathans are strictly speaking a part of the problem (I mean, they created the species that then created species that turned on them), and I get that the Leviathans creating the Intelligence to fix the problem is also a part of the problem (they created the Intelligence, so really anything the Intelligence does in, in some part, because of its creator which gave it existence). But, something just seems off. I was also confused when Leviathan said that the Intelligence wasn't a mistake, but then proceeds to talk about how he will fight the reapers. Why does he agree to fight the reapers and express negative emotion toward them if he agrees that they're not a mistake? Would he just back off and support whatever the Intelligence does?

That is because it's an organic being. The AI is driven by logic, the Leviathans use, like we do some times, logic to reason, but are not bound by it. Their logic says the AI was no mistake, which is correct. Their emotion says they want to live as they do now without being merged into a Reaper. Even if that existence is flawed.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 14 novembre 2012 - 04:51 .

[hiraeth]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MassEffectFShep wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

MassEffectFShep wrote...

Question: When the Catalyst tells you that he betrayed the Leviathans because they were a part of the problem and just didn't know it- do you buy it?

No.

The only legitimate reason to turn on the Leviathan would be to end their tyranny on the Galaxy, and let other life achieve its true potential.  But then when they converted Leviathans into Harbinger, they also aborbed the Leviathan's lust for power and control.

That's my take on it at least.

Edit: Also, Leviathan says "The Intelligence" wasn't a mistake.  Which is strange.  Almost like they were part of their overall plan.  Quite why, I don't know.  It may have just been pure hubris at refusing to admit a mistake, even one like the Reapers.

This is emotion and morality speaking. Strictly logical the Leviathans are indeed part of the problem and what the Reapers do is their programmed response. There was no mistake, the harvest must continue.

I get that the Leviathans are strictly speaking a part of the problem (I mean, they created the species that then created species that turned on them), and I get that the Leviathans creating the Intelligence to fix the problem is also a part of the problem (they created the Intelligence, so really anything the Intelligence does in, in some part, because of its creator which gave it existence). But, something just seems off. I was also confused when Leviathan said that the Intelligence wasn't a mistake, but then proceeds to talk about how he will fight the reapers. Why does he agree to fight the reapers and express negative emotion toward them if he agrees that they're not a mistake? Would he just back off and support whatever the Intelligence does?

That is because it's an organic being. The AI is driven by logic, the Leviathans use, like we do some times, logic to reason, but are not bound by it. Their logic says the AI was no mistake, which is correct. Their emotion says they want to live as they do now without being merged into a Reaper.

I thought the notion that the Intelligence was stricly an AI was questionable- when Shepard asks him, doesn't he say "in as much as you are just an animal?" implying that he is more than just an AI? If the AI is strictly logic, then I understand, but if he *can* be driven by emotional reasoning as well, then it doesn't make sense.

[Restrider]

dorktainian wrote...

EDI!

She goes with you on the mission to Cerberus base. Why? To make sure you go right past the remains of the human reaper - ensuring your complete indoctrination by proximity to the now defunct reaper. It's all cameltoes fault.

TIM is innocent. He is a pawn.

Star Brat is Sovereign. He's not dead. That was just a hoax. Sovereign planted his control on the presidium tower. His corpse fell off only when the transfer was complete. (think alien - when facehugger only falls off when it's job is done) Why would Star brat offer the choice of destroy in that case? Well it's a deception. When faced with 3 choices surely you would go for the least destructive (synthesis) or the one that would allow you to stop the reapers and force them to make amends (control). Destroy is the correct choice. The only choice you can make if you are not indoctrinated. EDI will die? So what. She's a part of the problem. The Geth will die? Again they are a part of the problem. This isn't about synthetic life at all - thats a major red herring.

It's about the preservation of organic life and ending the reaper threat forever.

Shep is still injured in the rubble. It's all in his head.

That assertions can only work based on some kind of Deception Theory. If you assume that Shepard is still on Earth and everything on the Citadel (and to a unknown part before entering the beam) is a hallucination, then only Harbinger posing as Starbrat makes sense.
The Sovereign Theory (yay another acronym ST!) sounds in itself not bad (the premise of it at least), but it would still have the same fallacies Deception Theory has (Breath Scene on the Citadel and strangeness of the whole end before reaching the decision chamber).