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[MegumiAzusa]

MassEffectFShep wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MassEffectFShep wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

MassEffectFShep wrote...

Question: When the Catalyst tells you that he betrayed the Leviathans because they were a part of the problem and just didn't know it- do you buy it?

No.

The only legitimate reason to turn on the Leviathan would be to end their tyranny on the Galaxy, and let other life achieve its true potential.  But then when they converted Leviathans into Harbinger, they also aborbed the Leviathan's lust for power and control.

That's my take on it at least.

Edit: Also, Leviathan says "The Intelligence" wasn't a mistake.  Which is strange.  Almost like they were part of their overall plan.  Quite why, I don't know.  It may have just been pure hubris at refusing to admit a mistake, even one like the Reapers.

This is emotion and morality speaking. Strictly logical the Leviathans are indeed part of the problem and what the Reapers do is their programmed response. There was no mistake, the harvest must continue.

I get that the Leviathans are strictly speaking a part of the problem (I mean, they created the species that then created species that turned on them), and I get that the Leviathans creating the Intelligence to fix the problem is also a part of the problem (they created the Intelligence, so really anything the Intelligence does in, in some part, because of its creator which gave it existence). But, something just seems off. I was also confused when Leviathan said that the Intelligence wasn't a mistake, but then proceeds to talk about how he will fight the reapers. Why does he agree to fight the reapers and express negative emotion toward them if he agrees that they're not a mistake? Would he just back off and support whatever the Intelligence does?

That is because it's an organic being. The AI is driven by logic, the Leviathans use, like we do some times, logic to reason, but are not bound by it. Their logic says the AI was no mistake, which is correct. Their emotion says they want to live as they do now without being merged into a Reaper.

I thought the notion that the Intelligence was stricly an AI was questionable- when Shepard asks him, doesn't he say "in as much as you are just an animal?" implying that he is more than just an AI? If the AI is strictly logic, then I understand, but if he *can* be driven by emotional reasoning as well, then it doesn't make sense.

Being "more" then just animals doesn't unbind us from the need of sleep, food, exercise etc. It is never stated that basic principles like the binding to logic are removed.

[Keltikone]

The ending only really proved to me, that Bioware games should not be assumed to be the sort of game I would enjoy anymore.
No more preorders for me.

[hiraeth]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Being "more" then just animals doesn't unbind us from the need of sleep, food, exercise etc. It is never stated that basic principles like the binding to logic are removed.

Right- but the Leviathans are also at times logic-driven as well (they created the Catalyst in the first place). So then are we talking degrees? Leviathans can fluctuate more freely between being driven by logic vs. emotion, but the Intelligence is 90% logic and 10% non-logic, so it speaks as though it is completely-logic driven/a pure AI? I buy that the Catalyst is largely logic-driven, but if it's capable of non-logic drives as well, then it's motivations become more complex.

I feel lke this is getting nit-picky, but this is one of the core things about the Catalyst that I just don't get, and that playing the Leviathan DLC made even more confusing for me.

[MegumiAzusa]

MassEffectFShep wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Being "more" then just animals doesn't unbind us from the need of sleep, food, exercise etc. It is never stated that basic principles like the binding to logic are removed.

Right- but the Leviathans are also at times logic-driven as well (they created the Catalyst in the first place). So then are we talking degrees? Leviathans can fluctuate more freely between being driven by logic vs. emotion, but the Intelligence is 90% logic and 10% non-logic, so it speaks as though it is completely-logic driven/a pure AI? I buy that the Catalyst is largely logic-driven, but if it's capable of non-logic drives as well, then it's motivations become more complex.

I feel lke this is getting nit-picky, but this is one of the core things about the Catalyst that I just don't get, and that playing the Leviathan DLC made even more confusing for me.

First of all the Guardian being created by the Leviathans doesn't mean it thinks like Leviathans. And even if Leviathans certainly use more logic for their reasoning they still are not driven by it.

[Davik Kang]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
He seems like this guy who goes solo with all his ideas and doesn't get any proper peer review. At least what we do, is come up with stuff and then we all have our say on whether we think it's legit or not. It's a consensus system. 

Not saying we're better, it just seems more balanced. I really can't watch his stuff.

Tbh I think this thread is better.  Peer review and willingness to look for problems, analyse stuff etc., just makes this thread a way better source.  The only problem of course is that it's gertting on for 7000 pages long, which means people who want to properly this stuff need to participate in the thread itself, rather than asking someone to explain everything.  But the collections of info on the front page (and the ones to be done) will help a lot.

MegumiAzusa wrote...

My problem was he made 3 blatant errors in the first 20 minutes. For example saying there are no piles of bodies before you get stunned by Harbinger while in the video he showed with him making the beam run you could see the piles.

That's where I started getting bored of it too.  And then when he started mixing up two or three disparate points and concluding "yes, I'm going to say that this is relevant to supporting IT" I just stopped watching.  The effort is admirable, no doubt, but his argument style just makes IT look bad really.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 14 novembre 2012 - 05:25 .

[Andromidius]

Having someone willing to argue with you produces better results as well.

And yeah, there were body piles during the beam run. Not as noticable or apparent, of course, and the question as to why they are there is still posed.

[ElSuperGecko]

It seems as though some think that the galaxy will welcome the Shepard-controlled Reaper fleet with open arms in the Control ending, and now fear/abhor/resent them at all. Let alone want revenge.

"Dear Batarian/Turian/Asari President. We are sorry for burning your homeworlds to the ground, murdering billions of your friends, familes and loved ones, and husking billions more. We have changed now. To show how sorry we are, we will help you rebuild your houses. Regards, the Reapers".

/facepalm

[MegumiAzusa]

Davik Kang wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
He seems like this guy who goes solo with all his ideas and doesn't get any proper peer review. At least what we do, is come up with stuff and then we all have our say on whether we think it's legit or not. It's a consensus system. 

Not saying we're better, it just seems more balanced. I really can't watch his stuff.

Tbh I think this thread is better.  Peer review and willingness to look for problems, analyse stuff etc., just makes this thread a way better source.  The only problem of course is that it's gertting on for 7000 pages long, which means people who want to properly this stuff need to participate in the thread itself, rather than asking someone to explain everything.  But the collections of info on the front page (and the ones to be done) will help a lot.

MegumiAzusa wrote...

My problem was he made 3 blatant errors in the first 20 minutes. For example saying there are no piles of bodies before you get stunned by Harbinger while in the video he showed with him making the beam run you could see the piles.

That's where I started getting bored of it too.  And then when he started mixing up two or three disparate points and concluding "yes, I'm going to say that this is relevant to supporting IT" I just stopped watching.  The effort is admirable, no doubt, but his argument style just makes IT look bad really.

What might help would be to set up an indoctrination wiki that could contain the points, be editable to add references, examples, and flesh out the points further. also the interlink abilities of a wiki could help quite a bit. So then a point was discussed it could be added to the wiki, and then be extended. It would give a much quicker overview and would work as a reference in return.

[hiraeth]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

What might help would be to set up an indoctrination wiki that could contain the points, be editable to add references, examples, and flesh out the points further. also the interlink abilities of a wiki could help quite a bit. So then a point was discussed it could be added to the wiki, and then be extended. It would give a much quicker overview and would work as a reference in return.

I like this idea, it'd be really helpful. somethign that can expand on this: http://masseffectind...on.blogspot.nl/

[Andromidius]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
What might help would be to set up an indoctrination wiki that could contain the points, be editable to add references, examples, and flesh out the points further. also the interlink abilities of a wiki could help quite a bit. So then a point was discussed it could be added to the wiki, and then be extended. It would give a much quicker overview and would work as a reference in return.

#

If its purely about Indoctrination, that could work.

However, if its about Indoctrination Theory there could be issues.  Differing interpretations being one, and everyone considering it 'fanfiction' is another.

Focusing on the facts surrounding Indoctrination, its known occurences and effects, the technology behind it, its history of experimentation, parallels with Leviathan Enthrallment...  That would be very useful.

[MegumiAzusa]

MassEffectFShep wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

What might help would be to set up an indoctrination wiki that could contain the points, be editable to add references, examples, and flesh out the points further. also the interlink abilities of a wiki could help quite a bit. So then a point was discussed it could be added to the wiki, and then be extended. It would give a much quicker overview and would work as a reference in return.

I like this idea, it'd be really helpful. somethign that can expand on this: http://masseffectind...on.blogspot.nl/

It would certainly help in updates as some stuff in that blog is quite outdated

[MegumiAzusa]

Andromidius wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
What might help would be to set up an indoctrination wiki that could contain the points, be editable to add references, examples, and flesh out the points further. also the interlink abilities of a wiki could help quite a bit. So then a point was discussed it could be added to the wiki, and then be extended. It would give a much quicker overview and would work as a reference in return.

#

If its purely about Indoctrination, that could work.

However, if its about Indoctrination Theory there could be issues.  Differing interpretations being one, and everyone considering it 'fanfiction' is another.

Focusing on the facts surrounding Indoctrination, its known occurences and effects, the technology behind it, its history of experimentation, parallels with Leviathan Enthrallment...  That would be very useful.

That's why I said "indoctrination wiki". Though there is nothing to stop someone adding a Trivia/Speculation section on a page like making a reference from Wake Up to Breathe.

[masster blaster]

Meg I think GethPrime2 was working on it, but he is taking a break. On that note Could Victory be Vendetta? I mean is it possible the Reapers got a hold of Victory and reprogrammed it as Vendetta.?

Or let's say Vendetta isn't tampered yet when Shepard is on Thessia. Why didn't Kai Leng kill the Scientist if he was going to need their help to find the beacon? Oh wait only a Prothean cyhper can actually find a beacon, well Prothean.

Wait why didn't Javik sense the beacon? He is a real Prothean, and I am sure he should have been the one to find Vendetta. Anyways Kai Leng kicks Shepard's but ( Yes I know we could have taken him, but hey) and takes the Prothean VI.

Now here is a reason why Kai Leng took Vendetta, and wanted Shepard to follow him.

1 it's to crush Shepard's hope remember " with out hope we might as well be machins programed to be do what were're told."

2 TIM knew about the beacon on Thessia. Literaly in the video lofs he tells Kai Leng to go to Thessia and wait for Shepard.

3 If Shepard were to have the real information of a fake one, then the Alliance team that is in charge of the project would actually look at the VI, and see if it's been tamper with.

If you think about Cronos station there isn't time to take the VI with use because it gave us what we wanted to hear, and that's it.

The stakes were higher than on Thessia so it makes sense to wait, and not only that, but Vendettas security systems were hacked.

Hacked!

Oh and one more thing you remember when Jack Hopper's friend the male one touched the monolith, and still had self Control over his thoughts/ who he was, until the Reapers started to gain Control over him, and killed TIM's grilfriend in the process.

I say his grilfriend because hey TIM really cared for her, and well I thought they were going to be a couple. I guess I was wrong, but further more it's like TIM's soldiers may have train of thought, but they are being Controlled not by TIM but Harbinger.

In other words Harbinger doesn't have to assume direct Control over the Cerberus troops, but their willpower through the implants.

[Davik Kang]

Restrider wrote...
That assertions can only work based on some kind of Deception Theory. If you assume that Shepard is still on Earth and everything on the Citadel (and to a unknown part before entering the beam) is a hallucination, then only Harbinger posing as Starbrat makes sense.
The Sovereign Theory (yay another acronym ST!) sounds in itself not bad (the premise of it at least), but it would still have the same fallacies Deception Theory has (Breath Scene on the Citadel and strangeness of the whole end before reaching the decision chamber).

The idea of Sovereign uploading his AI onto the Citadel at the end of ME1, either as Plan A, or as Plan B once failure became likely/inevitable, is a pretty nice idea.  However, does it actually make any difference whether the Child is Harbinger or Sovereign or any other Reaper?  I don't think it really matters all that much in terms of how we understand the ending.

Talking of the strangeness of the ending, I started the "New Game / New Character" editor in ME3 just to see what it was like.  Something really interesting was the final 'personality' selection.

After selecting your Childhood and Career profiles, you are then asked to pick a psychological profile.  You can pick Ashely dead, Kaidan dead, or loads-of-people dead.  The focus of the descriptions is on the severe psychological effect that the deaths of squadmates has had on Shepard.  If picking Kaidan or Ash, it speaks about how they have developed a bond in dealing with this loss (especially in terms of the Virmire Victim).

So even for new players, Bioware want the player to specifically focus on the psychological effects of losing squadmates to the Reaper war.  And the highlight of Kaidan / Ash is very interesting considering that it we see Kaidan and Ash's corpses over and over again on the Citadel.

There's so much writing on the wall now.  The whole game is just begging the player to look at things from a psychological perspective.  We're watching Shepard's mental breakdown throughout the game.  It's 100% setting us up for an illusion / hallucination at the end.  There is no doubt whatsoever.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 14 novembre 2012 - 06:19 .

[masster blaster]

Oh and why does TIM implant himself? It makes no sense to use Reaper implants to Control the Reapers. Also if the brat Controls TIM, then everything TIM was doing was bs. I mean his work is bs because the Reapers let him Control the Reaper forces. Think about it Harbinger Controls TIM, which he Controls Cerberus troops.

Which leades to TIM wanting to Control the Reapers again plan bs.

So Bioware disproved TIM's work by saying " Yes but he could never do it because we already Controled him."

So the Brat disproved Control, and Synthesis.

Yet the epilogue sceens beg to differ, but what if the Reapers are using Shepard's Prothean Cyhper to show Shepard a flash Forward of what could be a future, yet in Destroy Shepard overloads the Cyhper and freeing him/her.

[MegumiAzusa]

masster blaster wrote...

Wait why didn't Javik sense the beacon? He is a real Prothean, and I am sure he should have been the one to find Vendetta. Anyways Kai Leng kicks Shepard's but ( Yes I know we could have taken him, but hey) and takes the Prothean VI.

Shepard: Who's that supposed to be?
Liara: It's Athame. Her image became more like ours over time.
Javik: You mean your ancestors tried to hide the truth.
Liara: I'm still not willing to believe any of that's real.
Javik: Then why does Athame speak Prothean?
Shepard: What do you mean?
Javik: There is something here... I can sense it.

before Shepard senses it.

[demersel]

What is that red light on shepard in posters? and on the soldier in the N7 HQ banner?

[MegumiAzusa]

Davik Kang wrote...

Restrider wrote...
That assertions can only work based on some kind of Deception Theory. If you assume that Shepard is still on Earth and everything on the Citadel (and to a unknown part before entering the beam) is a hallucination, then only Harbinger posing as Starbrat makes sense.
The Sovereign Theory (yay another acronym ST!) sounds in itself not bad (the premise of it at least), but it would still have the same fallacies Deception Theory has (Breath Scene on the Citadel and strangeness of the whole end before reaching the decision chamber).

The idea of Sovereign uploading his AI onto the Citadel at the end of ME1, either as Plan A, or as Plan B once failure became likely/inevitable, is a pretty nice idea.  However, does it actually make any difference whether the Child is Harbinger or Sovereign or any other Reaper?  I don't think it really matters all that much in terms of how we understand the ending.

Talking of the strangeness of the ending, I started the "New Game / New Character" editor in ME3 just to see what it was like.  Something really interesting was the final 'personality' selection.

After selecting your Childhood and Career profiles, you are then asked to pick a psychological profile.  You can pick Ashely dead, Kaidan dead, or loads-of-people dead.  The focus of the descriptions is on the severe psychological effect that the deaths of squadmates has had on Shepard.  If picking Kaidan or Ash, it speaks about how they have developed a bond in dealing with this loss (especially in terms of the Virmire Victim).

So even for new players, Bioware want the player to specifically focus on the psychological effects of losing squadmates to the Reaper war.  And the highlight of Kaidan / Ash is very interesting considering that it we see Kaidan and Ash's corpses over and over again on the Citadel.

There's so much writing on the wall now.  The whole game is just begging the player to look at things from a psychological perspective.  We're watching Shepard's mental breakdown throughout the game.  It's 100% setting us up for an illusion / hallucination at the end.  There is no doubt whatsoever.

Not 100% sure about your conclusion but finally someone else noticed it too after I posted this about 10 times over the course of these threads and it always gets forgotten quite quickly. Shepard is affected by loss, and all these people saying "uh no my Shep is above that" etc are just wrong.

[MegumiAzusa]

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and why does TIM implant himself?

So he personally gained direct control over implanted soldiers, and of course physical upgrades.
You don't know if TIM the scene before was real. The Guardian is not above lying to get to his goals. Therefor you cannot assume TIM is/was really under their control, therefor your argument is invalid.

[llbountyhunter]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and why does TIM implant himself?

So he personally gained direct control over implanted soldiers, and of course physical upgrades.
You don't know if TIM the scene before was real. The Guardian is not above lying to get to his goals. Therefor you cannot assume TIM is/was really under their control, therefor your argument is invalid.

I think he was directing that to those who completly trust the star child.

those who already know he is above lying would probably do the exact opposite of what he suggests.

[Humakt83]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and why does TIM implant himself?

So he personally gained direct control over implanted soldiers, and of course physical upgrades.

And the motivation for it came from the Reapers.

[MegumiAzusa]

Humakt83 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and why does TIM implant himself?

So he personally gained direct control over implanted soldiers, and of course physical upgrades.

And the motivation for it came from the Reapers.

That's still a maybe, you cannot know, which is a problem.

[llbountyhunter]

 ok, so Ive been out for a while, but  I would like to go back and update my old IT threads....

Q/A thread    

Possible change in beginning of IT


if anywone is up to it, can you just tell me any new info to add? the second the is pretty outdated (but still relevent IMO), but im not sure what to change...

thanks 

[masster blaster]

So he personally gained direct control over implanted soldiers, and of course physical upgrades. You don't know if TIM the scene before was real. The Guardian is not above lying to get to his goals. Therefor you cannot assume TIM is/was really under their control, therefor your argument is invalid.

How is it invalid Meg. Tell me if the brat speaks the Truth, then when did he Control TIM. Do you hoestly think TIM is playing with the Reapers. I don't. He was gone when the moment he took the Proto Reaper inside his base.

Oh and did you not see the cigerates that were on the ground. Who is the one person that we see smoke inside his base. TIM. You hestly believe that the Reapers don't Control TIM.

Saren thought he wasn't under their Control, so does TIM, yet come on be seen this before right. I believe the brat when he says " but we already Controlled him", what I don't believe is Shepard Controlling the Reapers.

Think about it if Brat Controls TIM, then what was the point in trying to Control the Reapers. Saren looked like he had free Control, but so does TIM, and didn't Saren in the end find out he was Indoctrinated.

Yes that is if you think non IT, but why should I believe in TIM, if the brat says " but we already Controld him." I think TIM is gone for good. You can't save TIM, but only with a bullet to his head.

TIM's only act in all of this was to bring Shepard back to life and stop the Collectors, but no is ego clouded his mind and the Reapers used his tech against him. Just like the Reapers are using EDI, and the Geth as hostiges so if Shepard picks Destroy they will die in Shepard's head, but they really didn't.

It more like this.

TIM saw that he could Control the Reapers because of the use of Tech to help Humanity, what better way to protect Humanity is to Control the Reapers. Hence Javiks people paid the price because like TIM/ Cerberus they were Indoctrinated to the core to were the Indoctrinated Protheans were modified to Collectors, as Cerberus troops are now husl super soldiers.

[Davik Kang]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Not 100% sure about your conclusion but finally someone else noticed it too after I posted this about 10 times over the course of these threads and it always gets forgotten quite quickly. Shepard is affected by loss, and all these people saying "uh no my Shep is above that" etc are just wrong.

Yeah I really don't get people's ownership of Shepard's character getting to the point where they get to decide how she thinks and feels.  I start wondering whether, even if they'd got a standard ending, these people would start complaining that "Shepard's tone of voice was all wrong for this line", and "the dialogue at this point just didn't match my Shepard at all" etc.

Shepard's a 3rd-person character, and as much as we can guide her, she's Bioware's character.  Even protagonists in previous BW games were ultimately their own characters with their own dialogue.  And the fact that Shepard's dialgue is voice-acted just distances us that little but more from her.  This isn't a good or bad thing, it's just how it is.  Shepard is a more malleable protagonist than in most games, but she's still primarily a character written by Bioware.

About my conclusion - fair enough.  I guess it was more a response to the perpetual "explain X, Y Z - it's bad writing" arguments.  What I meant is that the Kaidan / Ash corpses and the Child hologram are quite blatantly illusions / hallucinations, and that these things are even foreshadowed from the character creation menu.  How much else is illusory... is still not entirely clear.