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[masster blaster]

Oh and why does TIM implant himself?

So he personally gained direct control over implanted soldiers, and of course physical upgrades.

And the motivation for it came from the Reapers.

That's still a maybe, you cannot know, which is a problem.


Oh come on Meg. Saren was forced to have Reaper implants installed in his body because Nazar said to. TIM should even be thinking to use the Reaper implants because he should no better. If you have Reaper implants in your body, it's not the person with a Control switch like TIM that controls the implabted husk/ Cerberus troops. No it's the ones who built the implants, and the one that Controls the puppet master.

[masster blaster]

MegumiAzusa wrote... Not 100% sure about your conclusion but finally someone else noticed it too after I posted this about 10 times over the course of these threads and it always gets forgotten quite quickly. Shepard is affected by loss, and all these people saying "uh no my Shep is above that" etc are just wrong.

I have been saying that to, and I have been responding, but I can't quote on my phone as good, so now I am just cpoy and pasting now. Yes I agree that every time Shepard looses some one close to him, or he affects him/her.

Look at Mordin, Thane, and the VS. If all the died in one day let's say, wouldn't Shepard be hurting on the inside, but not show it on the outside?. I mean heck your LI ask you if your okay, but if you pick Renegade Shepard actions your lying to your LI, but Paragon Shepard tells them that to many have died, and the death of Kadin for my Shepard kept getting brought up.

You Shepard are suppost to feel what Shepard is feeling. When Shepard is angey the player is angry. If Shepard makes a joke the player laughs. It's the looses that affect Shepard, as does the player.

[Davik Kang]

@MegumiAzusa and Masster Blaster

Maybe I am missing the crux of your argument, but I just wanted to add something about indoctrination that might be relevant...

I don't think indoctrination is an "either / or" property. Certain indoctrinated persons show an ability to resist. Saren is clearly indoctrinated, yet he tries do argue his case with Shepard - he tries to defend himself against the moral accusations Shepard throws at him. So though he is indoctrinated, his mind is till his own to a certain extent.

We see the same with Benezia. She unleashes hell on Shepard and the galaxy at Soveriegn's whim, but she also tries to defend her position, and is even able to completely regain her mental individualistic faculties for a moment when helping Shepard, before she is turned again and must be killed.

The point I'm making is that whether a person is Indoctrinated or not isn't always simple. It's not just a checkbox : "Indoctrinated - Yes/No". TIM shows signs of indoctrination but exactly how far he's gone, we never really know. Importantly, we never truly know which of his decisions are his own, which are inlfuenced by indoctrination, and which are straight up Reaper choices.

So what I'm saying is that you're both right really. TIM is indoctrinated but we never really know how much, or which of his choices are a direct result of indoctrination. Ultimately you are able to reason with both to commit suicide, so part of their reasoning faculties are clearly still independent, and so the Reaper indoctrination is not so different to real life indoctrination in that respect.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 14 novembre 2012 - 07:32 .

[hiraeth]

 interesting indoctrination deviantart by JamieCOTC:

http://jamiecotc.dev...ation-337749233

Modifié par MassEffectFShep, 14 novembre 2012 - 07:49 .

[Jadebaby]

There's two types of Indoctrination. Fast and slow. Once you are indoctrinated it becomes a checkbox and you will never be the same (see; benezia). That being said, it's hard tp pick it woth slow indoctrination.

Nevertheless, I don't think people are saying Shepard IS indoctrinated, but that the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate her/him.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

There's two types of Indoctrination. Fast and slow. Once you are indoctrinated it becomes a checkbox and you will never be the same (see; benezia). That being said, it's hard tp pick it woth slow indoctrination.

Nevertheless, I don't think people are saying Shepard IS indoctrinated, but that the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate her/him.

Exactly and that seems to be one of the most basic things people dont understand about the theory. We are not syaing Shepard is Indoctrinated throughout ME3, we are saying Shepard is in the process with the all or nothing moment beeing the decision chamber.

[spotlessvoid]

Considering Harbinger actually states he wants Shepard's mind....I certainly think the Reapers are going to push things along as slowly as possible. I think the Reapers already have wedged themselves into his mind, but are being subtle in their attempt to slowly subvert him. I think the end may be a moment of reckoning to see where Shepard is at and whether he is ready. Or if you believe he's on the citadel then it may be the Reapers final attempt to turn him.

[CmdrShep80]

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and why does TIM implant himself? It makes no sense to use Reaper implants to Control the Reapers. Also if the brat Controls TIM, then everything TIM was doing was bs. I mean his work is bs because the Reapers let him Control the Reaper forces. Think about it Harbinger Controls TIM, which he Controls Cerberus troops.

Which leades to TIM wanting to Control the Reapers again plan bs.

So Bioware disproved TIM's work by saying " Yes but he could never do it because we already Controled him."

So the Brat disproved Control, and Synthesis.

Yet the epilogue sceens beg to differ, but what if the Reapers are using Shepard's Prothean Cyhper to show Shepard a flash Forward of what could be a future, yet in Destroy Shepard overloads the Cyhper and freeing him/her.

i have a real easy answer for you. It starts with a question. Why does Saren implant himself?  Do you remember how Shepard's paragon choices (or renegade) is used to convince TIM/saren that they're indoctrinated?  Saren received implants because of Shepard's meddling and creating doubts to overcome indoctrination. The same for TIM

[spotlessvoid]

Questions for Davik:

From what I understand, you think Shepard is on the Citadel, but Anderson and/or TIM may not be really there. You also think that the catalyst scene is essentially an indoctrination attempt and choosing destroy is activating the crucible. Is this right?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Oh and why does TIM implant himself? It makes no sense to use Reaper implants to Control the Reapers. Also if the brat Controls TIM, then everything TIM was doing was bs. I mean his work is bs because the Reapers let him Control the Reaper forces. Think about it Harbinger Controls TIM, which he Controls Cerberus troops.

Which leades to TIM wanting to Control the Reapers again plan bs.

So Bioware disproved TIM's work by saying " Yes but he could never do it because we already Controled him."

So the Brat disproved Control, and Synthesis.

Yet the epilogue sceens beg to differ, but what if the Reapers are using Shepard's Prothean Cyhper to show Shepard a flash Forward of what could be a future, yet in Destroy Shepard overloads the Cyhper and freeing him/her.

i have a real easy answer for you. It starts with a question. Why does Saren implant himself?  Do you remember how Shepard's paragon choices (or renegade) is used to convince TIM/saren that they're indoctrinated?  Saren received implants because of Shepard's meddling and creating doubts to overcome indoctrination. The same for TIM

Sovereign senses Saren's hesitation, so offers him inplants to "strenghen his resolve".

[CmdrShep80]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

There's two types of Indoctrination. Fast and slow. Once you are indoctrinated it becomes a checkbox and you will never be the same (see; benezia). That being said, it's hard tp pick it woth slow indoctrination.

Nevertheless, I don't think people are saying Shepard IS indoctrinated, but that the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate her/him.

i hate to say it but way too many players believes Shepard is infallible and can't have flaws. One of my polls asked this and the majority believed Shepard couldn't be indoctrinated

[CmdrShep80]

 Just a reminder for the "is TIM indoctrinated or not"

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal meathods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

[Andromidius]

SwobyJ wrote...

We know what kind of fan (yes, fan) category he fits into

A fan that fans the flames?

[spotlessvoid]

My biggest question is if choosing destroy is activating the crucible, wouldn't the Reapers want to stall Shepard long enough to let them destroy the crucible? Starchild in fact does the opposite, even saying there isn't enough time to explain who came up with the crucible idea. If the point of it is to sway Shepard from activating the crucible, why not keep him busy and give the Reapers enough time to make it irrelevant?

The literal follow up question is of course:
If starchild controls the Reapers, and wants to implement a new solution by giving Shepard the freedom to make the decision, why does he allow the Reapers to destroy the crucible if Shepard doesn't choose fast enough? If starchild really wants Shepard to choose synthesis, wouldn't ordering the Reapers to back off make Shepard significantly more likely to trust starchild? It would certainly make Shepard more hesitant to pick destroy.

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 14 novembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[CmdrShep80]

 TIM-Shepard conversations (paragon). Just notice how TIM starts to be swayed by Shepard

[CmdrShep80]

Here's a what if thought without a lot of backing yet:

What if TIM is just a pawn and Kai Leng is the real force behind TIM. I say this because in the 1st TIM conversations TIM has no implants but Kai does. Could Kai be a double agent working with the Reapers subtly convincing/subverting TIM?

[Andromidius]

And I really am getting the impression TIM is a lot more like Saren then we realised. He knows the risks, and is aware that he may be succuming to Indoctrination. His denials are a defense mechanism, and dodging the question often allows himself to be convinced.

Secretly, I think he knows all too well. And that he's laid plans in motion that will put things right if things get out of hand. Having Shepard, giving Shepard a ship and tools to evade the Reapers, giving Shepard a trustworthy crew and all the resources he can.

After the Collector Base TIM must have lost more control, hense starting to play directly into the Reaper's pocket. All he could do is deny the truth and keep playing the game, indirectly helping Shepard by pushing scientists out of Cerberus into the arms of the Alliance, leading Shepard around with seemingly careless actions (allowing Shepard to live in certain situations, for example) and allowing his base to be found along with the Proto Reaper that finally finished his path to Indoctrination.

All just speculation, of course. But I get the impression there's a small hidden part inside Jack Harper's mind that is fighting back against the Reapers.

Modifié par Andromidius, 14 novembre 2012 - 08:48 .

[spotlessvoid]

TIM also states control is the only means of survival. Not that it's better than destroy, but that only control is victory.

[Humakt83]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Here's a what if thought without a lot of backing yet:

What if TIM is just a pawn and Kai Leng is the real force behind TIM. I say this because in the 1st TIM conversations TIM has no implants but Kai does. Could Kai be a double agent working with the Reapers subtly convincing/subverting TIM?

Not according to Retribution. But Kai Leng received his implants long before TIM, I'd say it is possible that he's much further down the path, though the indoctrination process likely began with TIM (Evolution comic) long before Kai Leng entered the picture. And there shouldn't be any reason to doubt that Kai Leng wouldn't be indoctrinated on Thessia.

"We evolve or we die. Those are the options!" - Synthesis supporter and Reaper sympathizer.

Modifié par Humakt83, 14 novembre 2012 - 08:53 .

[Davik Kang]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Questions for Davik:

From what I understand, you think Shepard is on the Citadel, but Anderson and/or TIM may not be really there. You also think that the catalyst scene is essentially an indoctrination attempt and choosing destroy is activating the crucible. Is this right?

Yo sorry for the delayed reply, I'm still struggling to do solo bronze challenges.  Twice now I've got to extraction wave but failed to get inside the blue area in time... WHAT AM I DOING??????

In answer...

- yes Shep on Citadel, but not in the space bit with Child, that's basically a full-on dream/hallucination.

- TIM / Anderson probably are there but it does also make a lot of sense if they're symbloic, so I'm undecided, leaning towards "they're there" just for more satisfying narrative purposes.

- signs of psychological trauma cause hallucinations begin way before then, but they're pretty serious by the end, such that Shepard / the player can't tell what's real and what's not any more

- choosing Destroy is using the Crucible to destroy the Reapers yeah.  In High EMS this is definitely the best choice.  At lower EMS I'm not sure whether Vaporise Destroy is really better than Control (depends on hindsight, so without hindsight I can see good reasons for btoh choices).  Synthesis and Refuse are just bad no matter what.

- I don't know if I'd say 'activating' the Crucible, because it could be 'activating' the Citadel instead, or imply releasing something like TTG suggested, or adding energy to the Crucible somehow.  I also think that Control and Synthesis might involve activating the Crucible, simply because it makes more sense in terms of the EMS score.

But yeah, short answer - yes, Shep on Citadel (not at the summit where the explosion is though), and yes, Destroy means using the Crucible to destroy the Reapers.

[CmdrShep80]

Oh that's an interesting idea Andromidius. TIM's still giving Harbinger Shepard but is fighting indoctrination by giving Shepard Harbinger. While TIM won't survive, he's ensuring that Shepard will (his destroy half) while he's ensuring Shepard will be given for synthesis (his control half). Would make some sense out of why ME2 was one big TIM test for Shepard to complete. Could be the collector base was nothing more than a "can you survive the mock crucible?"

[Andromidius]

There's still no rubble on the Citadel, so I'm afraid I'm going to continue to disagree with that notion.