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[ThisOneIsPunny]

Andromidius wrote...

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

Also, regarding warships, did we ever actually see cerberus warships that were bigger than fighters or shuttles?

Cruisers are mentioned, and there's a space battle against Hacket's fleet during the attack on Cronos Station.  Apperently they have a decent sized independant fleet, and its got better overall tech then most Alliance vessels.

Cruisers are definitely possible under them as mentioned, I'll look back again at the cronos station mission but I don't and I hope Cerberus doesn't have full on dreadnoughts. That would be a little unbelievable even for Cerberus. What I do remember is that we briefly see some Cerberus ships back ME2 at the station holding the SR-2. Also if the ship shown in the initial Omega picture is a Cerberus dreadnought, I will momentarily shake my head.

starlitegirlx wrote...
Tim wouldn't need any of that if the reaper at kronos served as the new collector base. We never saw anything to allude to that, but we saw the proto reaper and we saw the soldier and santuary and benning. I think they were amassing an army through abductions and sanctuary and with the reaper tech they had from the base, I'm sure he indoctrinated plenty of people, probably some very rich ones as well. Miranda's dad was rich and willing, but who is to say that Tim didn't indoctrinate others during those 6 months? He had the tech and we saw in Arrival how easy it was for Kenson and a station's worth of people to be indoctrinated in what seems to have been a short time. Was there a pinpoint on how long kenson had that artifact? Because that's all it would take to get others indoctrinated and forking over money to Tim. (Think of that indoctrinated hannar as an example of how easily it could happen across the board to anyone Tim wanted indoctrinated and he wanted to indoctrinate whomever he could.)

He could have, but my point is that there's enough context and suggestion in ME2 to explain the growth of Cerberus by the time of ME3 and the Reapers attacking.

[MegumiAzusa]

Davik Kang wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Not to mention Liara's final gift. She says its a memory, but then its just a lightshow. With red lights.

Mine too.  I guess we were too Renegade in our playthroughs:innocent:

Huh I never knew it depended on Paragon/Renegade. Mine were always blue and I didn't look it up on YT. This is interesting. In ME1 you see a blue or red planet at the end. In ME2 a blue or red sun. And at first when it pops up I thought it would be the galaxy until it just filled the screen in white. But as it definitely breaks the end screen thing there may be some other meaning?

[CmdrShep80]

Andromidius wrote...
Snip

Huh.  One of the soldiers manning a radio in the FOB has the same voice as Donnelly.  Same actor, I guess, not even bothering to try a different accent or inflection.

Edit2:

And Ashley called Shepard "Captain".  Uh.

do you remember the way the radio sounded at that point?  Do you notice how it sounds after Shepard is knocked oit and when Hackett is speaking to him at the end?  And for the sake of it all the nondescript Shepard VI and the way he sounds compared to real Shepard. 

I guess what I'm saying is even the radio voices are not quite right. It's almost as if all that back there was an illusion. It's like something wanted us to forget (paraphrasing)

[CmdrShep80]

Andromidius wrote...

Not to mention Liara's final gift. She says its a memory, but then its just a lightshow. With red lights.

...yeah.

Oh, and most of the farewells from your old squadmates via QEC (in the field? Uh, 'kay) are so short they may as well not have bothered. Samara's is about 15 seconds long!

could be the Reaper's way to help Shepard's mind let go of past attachments. What we really should ask is how the heck does a mobile FOB get their hands on a QEC?  Ditto with Anderson. I would like to know how he got one and dragged it across half of Earth just to talk to Shepard

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Still catching up to the thread, but had to post this:

Re-watching the scene with Javik in the Thessia temple:

- First off, the Reaper horn sound when Shepard's hand seems to be magically drawn to the beacon. Megumi pointed this out some time ago, and it is very intriguing. It makes Vendetta...., dubious.. Not to mention (like MB said) It is strange that Javik doesn't notice it, even though Liara says "It must be the Prothean cypher you were given on Feros so long ago." and Javik says: "..or it could be the Prothean standing next to you.

What is interesting is that Javik recognizes it as Prothean but still doesn't know why (he feels something but cannot attach any meaning to the feeling).

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I'm willing to bet Omega is going to turn out not being what it appears to be.

It's absolutely a theme.

I'm interested in what they pick as the origin of Omega though. The games codex makes it clear it's constructed by corporations after the asteroid has been split after the Prothean cycle. The book claims some of the base architecture was done by the Reapers.

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Not to mention Liara's final gift. She says its a memory, but then its just a lightshow. With red lights.

Mine too.  I guess we were too Renegade in our playthroughs:innocent:

Huh I never knew it depended on Paragon/Renegade. Mine were always blue and I didn't look it up on YT. This is interesting. In ME1 you see a blue or red planet at the end. In ME2 a blue or red sun. And at first when it pops up I thought it would be the galaxy until it just filled the screen in white. But as it definitely breaks the end screen thing there may be some other meaning?

I got a blue light too.

My interpretation of it is that 'the darkness will be breached'. There will be light after the darkness.

[BleedingUranium]

Eryri wrote...

One of the other devs also tweeted about finishing work on a difficult piece of "logic".

I wonder if they're planning some new gameplay mode, such as actually being able to control the Normandy itself?

Fighting reapers in space with the Normandy could make for a hell of a boss battle. And ME3 has had a conspicuous absence of vehicle sections compared to the other two games.

Playing Halo 4 reminded me exactly what we're missing for the end of ME3. Halo 4's second-to-last mission, "The Composer", ends pretty much where we're at in ME3 right now, and the last mission, "Midnight", is pretty much exactly (in gameplay, music, themes, etc) what I see happening at the true end of ME3.

Here's the part that ties into your post. End of game spoilers, obviously. So! Epic! Best part of any Halo game, in my opinion.

[MegumiAzusa]

Andromidius wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

If shooting people in the middle of monologuing is Renegade, then colour me red and call me Shepard.

I prefer telling them they work too hard and putting them to sleep via electricution.

I always saw that as a Paragon action, considering it was a Batarian.

/evilgrin

And yeah.  Remember the discussion about the abstract paintings?  The same one in the apartment in London is also in Bryson's lab/apartment.  You know, the guy obsessed about finding information on the Reapers before the Reapers became public knowledge?

Memories manifesting themselves in reality ahoy!

They are also in From Ashes, and iirc one or two other places in the game. I would rather claim they were made to be a bit more generic.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Davik Kang wrote...

I can explain the Child's logic and I can explain Shepard's out-of-character reactions in fairly basic terms.  But explaining the actual structure of the conversation, in terms of being a hallucination over the control panel, becomes awkward, because it would basically have to be a mish-mash of information, which makes sense of itself the way a dream makes sense of itself.  That is, loads of thoughts are present in a dream, but we interpret tham as a straightforward story - when in fact it is just non-associated memories being jumbled together, amd we interpret them in a way that makes sense IRL, i.e. by events connected via a linear passage of time.

To me it makes sense to represent the hallucination in this way, but without a clear foreshadowing of this exact technique elsewhere in the narrative, I am unlikely to be able to convince the more hardcore players (IT, Literal or otherwise) of this point of view.  But as I said, I'm not on some crusade to convince everybody about anything, I just like talking about the ending.

Could you explain for me how you see this...

If you think the decision chamber was an illusion entirely, but Shepard is actually on the Citadel, then how exactly is the crucible activated in your interpretation?

[MegumiAzusa]

Andromidius wrote...

Edit: And the outer spires of the Conduit look like Destroyers.  A lot like them.

Actually they are 3 digged in Sovereign class Reapers, the inner ones are down-scaled versions, and then there are the plates like on the Rachni mission.

Andromidius wrote...

Edit2: Since when did they add a second Keeper in the corpse-tunnel?  Regardless, all bald humans.  Apperently Reapers don't like hair in their soup either.

There were always two. The EC actually added a third that vanishes after the intro.

[masster blaster]

FYI in masster's post, I noticed the word Shepard staggers from left to right in the 1st 4 paragraphs. Thought that was awesome.

But ya @masster - I like that theory. It also allows TIM to continue to advance the Reaper cause without looking too suspicious


Thank you. Your the first to say something.

[BatmanTurian]

starlitegirlx wrote...


Dropping like flies? What do you mean? I'm just not holding out hope and actually am really bored with a game that ends so sadly. It's a bleak enough game before the ending if you are IT. I understand why it's bleak. It's befitting. But after playing it a few times and knowing IT, playing it has lost fun because there's no end and no victory. So I stop, when I do play, before kronos. I don't want to face the end anymore. Too disturbing.

On the bright side, I decided to let my femshep romance Liara and it turns out she's the only one (barring Thane who is awesome but only in 1.25 games) that isn't a turncoat and is also a great romance. Garrus is okay but too lacking in romance however high in loyalty. Liara gets high scores across the board. Kaidan is... no longer my favorite for his horizon behavior but I can't kill him and do like having him on my team.

I just want an ending that isn't so bleak. If they leave it as is and favor literalists, I'll smash something... like the game.

I just mean let's see if they do something like puzzle theory + IT (which I think they will do) before we pass undue judgement. I understand that the ending is hard because of this though.

[Davik Kang]

MegumiAzusa wrote...
Huh I never knew it depended on Paragon/Renegade. Mine were always blue and I didn't look it up on YT. This is interesting. In ME1 you see a blue or red planet at the end. In ME2 a blue or red sun. And at first when it pops up I thought it would be the galaxy until it just filled the screen in white. But as it definitely breaks the end screen thing there may be some other meaning?

Well if the previous games ended with such a colour variation, this is yet another place where the IT dream could start... 
I assume you can just skip the sequence with Liara if you don't like her though.

[Arashi08]

starlitegirlx wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Still catching up to the thread, but had to post this:

Re-watching the scene with Javik in the Thessia temple:

- First off, the Reaper horn sound when Shepard's hand seems to be magically drawn to the beacon. Megumi pointed this out some time ago, and it is very intriguing. It makes Vendetta...., dubious.. Not to mention (like MB said) It is strange that Javik doesn't notice it, even though Liara says "It must be the Prothean cypher you were given on Feros so long ago." and Javik says: "..or it could be the Prothean standing next to you.

That's interesting, but my point is this:

Javik says: "You can't keep denying reality, Asari." (Referring to the Goddess being a Prothean.)

And then it dawned on me.

This another one of those revelations in ME3, where something turns out to be not what it seems.

- The Asari goddess isn't a superior being, it's just a Prothean. And Liara needs to stop denying reality.

It's similar to Sanctuary, where the 'promised land' isn't the paradise as advertized, it's a freaking trap where people are 'integrated' into Cerberus husks. (Heavily foreshadowing synthesis)

I think the Asari goddess turning out to be simply a Prothean, from a writers' perspective, seems to be an obvious reference to the star child not being the superior being it appears to be. It's just a Reaper.

It's like the Citadel not being what it appears to be, but a freaking Reaper Venus fly trap.

I'm willing to bet Omega is going to turn out not being what it appears to be.

It's absolutely a theme.

Great points! I just played LotSB for the first time the other day and then again yesterday and I'm seeing how things aren't what they appeared to be at all. I thought for ages that Tim was in on getting shepard but now it's wasn't REALLY that. It was Liara going to cerberus using the broker.  But regarding that, did anyone watch the videos with Aria at the broker's ship? One is where she watches a blue sun murdered by a bunch of men. The other is where she watches what I think was a blue sun in an explosion. I don't think Aria is an undercover agent at all in Omega like some have suspected or hoped. I just can't see it.

And no matter what they come out with at this point, unless they resolve the end so the reapers aren't still harvesting and shepard is lying in rubble SOMEWHERE, there's really no point unless that was the point. You cannot beat the unbeatable foe. No matter what choices you make, no matter how hard you try, no matter anything at all, what will happen is going to happen. Quite the statement if you are not a literalist.

I can no longer play it past sanctuary. It's pointless to me. Futilism at its best. And I cannot see them changing it so shepard rises from the rubble and somehow hits a switch that does trigger the crucible to destroy all the reapers. Would be easy to do and an easy add in for something like the guardian (leaked DLC), but they lack the balls to do it.

Give it time. Let's see what they do before we start dropping like flies.

Dropping like flies? What do you mean? I'm just not holding out hope and actually am really bored with a game that ends so sadly. It's a bleak enough game before the ending if you are IT. I understand why it's bleak. It's befitting. But after playing it a few times and knowing IT, playing it has lost fun because there's no end and no victory. So I stop, when I do play, before kronos. I don't want to face the end anymore. Too disturbing.

On the bright side, I decided to let my femshep romance Liara and it turns out she's the only one (barring Thane who is awesome but only in 1.25 games) that isn't a turncoat and is also a great romance. Garrus is okay but too lacking in romance however high in loyalty. Liara gets high scores across the board. Kaidan is... no longer my favorite for his horizon behavior but I can't kill him and do like having him on my team.

I just want an ending that isn't so bleak. If they leave it as is and favor literalists, I'll smash something... like the game.

Sorry for posting this again everyone, as it is a really long read, but after reading your post starlite I wanted to share this again and see what alot of people's opniion might me on it.  With luck, it may make the endings more bearable, even from a literal standpoint.  It certainly helped me to be...ok with them even if the endings as they are is all we get.


"Arashi08 wrote...

I've been thinking about the endings a bit more and have been wondering about their purpose and why they were presented to us in such an enigmatic manner. It got me thinking about how we as a culture view stories and how we determine how plots unfold based on both are ability to compose and enjoy stories.

Oftentimes we get a clear understanding of who the antagonist and protagonist in a story is because the story defines them as such. Typically both the reader as well as the characters in the story define who is who based on their actions and the character's perspectives and system of morality. When you look at it this way it does seem like a subjective viewpoint; from the point fo view of the the characters, the antagonist is seen as such based on his or her actions, but more often than not, the antagonist feels that their actions are justifyed in some way, either out of fulfillment of their own selfish desires, or their desire to help others in a kinf od "ends justify the means." kind of way.

However, in an interactive medium like video games, there is room for other possibilities, much in the same way a choose-your-own-adventure book let's you interact with the story, a video game gives you even more freedom as you are not necessarily limited by narration. A video game could in theory allow you to decide who will be the protagonist and antagonist based on how the characters see your actions. You can see that alot in games like DA:O, where your companions can see you as a villain, no better than the darkspawn, rather than a hero based on your actions, even though you "evil" character as the same goal as a "good" character. Of course, I think that despite your action you will always be considered the protagonist of the story, but that's because the story in DA:O is central and what you do and what your goal is becomes the primary focus.

What this has to do with the ME3 endings, I feel, may well go back to what a well told story is supposed to do; help you look at things from a different perspective and examine yourself. Or more simply, to teach you a life lesson. Imo this is what a story must do if it can be considered a story well told. And if you think about it these endings may well be attempting to do this. This could work with or without IT but I think IT or something similar would be better because it wil provide a real conclusion to the story and give players a sense of consequence because we can see how our choice affected Shepard as well as the galaxy.

The more I think about these enigmatic endings that don't seem to have any character support at that exact moment and kind of force you to remember what characters throughout the series said about choices like these, while at the same time putting Shepard and by extension the player in this vacuum situation could possibly be seen as an examination of the player's soul. The endings could be a way for the player to examine their convictions and beliefs and put it to the test here in this final room where your actions will affect everything. at this moment you have to examine yourself and what you've learned over the course of three games and see which choice you will make based on your interactions with the various races and their plights. the choice you make determines what kind of person your Shepard is, and possibly who you as a player are.

None of these choices are ideal and you will be forced to deal with some form of loss either of yourself or of others. The game is essentially asking you things like: "Are you the kind of person who would sacrifice of yourself to save others? And if you are, do you know what kind of consequences that will bring?" And "Are you the kind of person who would sacrifice others to secure peace? And if you are do you know if that will truly endthe threat?"

What is the right choice? Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. Or perhaps there is a correct choice but you may not see it depending on your view of the world. You have to look at yourself and ask what is right because you don't have anyone else here to tell you what they think, unlike the last two games. Here you are on your own, with only memories and your own sense of morality to guide you.

Imo the endings could also be about a psychological battle where you struggle with yourself and your own sense of morality and whether the guideline of your life that you spent years creating is actually correct for you. The sci-fi story unfolds on the surface, but it represents your own struggle with life and it's objective, amoral nature. What's truly right and what's truly wrong? it it better to enslave and preserve or destroy and liberate? Is surrender truly preferrable to extinction or is life truly worth living without freedom? These could be questions the endings force you to ask yourself, or maybe they only reinforce your convictions. IT adds another layer to this because it may well bring it into perspective for Shepard and the player. Shepard beciming indoctrinated or not could again force players to reexamine themselves because their decision may turn out to be the wrong one because they didn't think it through enough, or didn't pay enough attention to the events unfolding around them to see the truth.

I guess only time will tell whether my guess is correct or not, but if this is similar to what BioWare intended then the endings may well bring a new perspective to how we view stories (or perhaps restore them) as well as how we view out own convictions and judgments of right and wrong.

...Or i could just be overthinking it waaaaaaaaaaaay too much lol ."

[MegumiAzusa]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Here's the part that ties into your post. End of game spoilers, obviously. So! Epic! Best part of any Halo game, in my opinion.

First 6 minutes are like 70% of the Star Wars games just with different ships

[Arashi08]

I was also thinking about a conversation on here that took place a few hours ago regarding Cerberus possibly tampering with the VI on Thessia. I'm sure this has been brought up already, but how can you account for Shepard's Cipher triggering the beacon reactivation protocols? it was Shepard's connection to the cipher that caused the statue to crumble and reveal the beacon inside. So how could Cerberus reach the beacon and find the VI and manage to tamper with it?

[BatmanTurian]

Arashi08 wrote...
*snip but awesome*

totally agree with all of it.

[401 Kill]

masster blaster wrote...

Andro, um no Tali romance only in ME2. While Ash was ME1. So Tali had no right, and besides Tali is happy with Garrus, and Javik with Liara. Oh and Dannels, with Gabie, so everyone wins.

I couldn't disagree with you more with the bolded, but I couldn't agree with you more with the other. Do you mean Donnely and Gabby?

[BleedingUranium]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Here's the part that ties into your post. End of game spoilers, obviously. So! Epic! Best part of any Halo game, in my opinion.

First 6 minutes are like 70% of the Star Wars games just with different ships

Well, it may have seemed less cool if I'd ever played any of those  But this is pretty much how I envision a flying the Normandy section.

Also, the Didact is Harbinger, and I'm not just saying that because he's a villain voiced by Keith Szarabajka. Same taunts, plans, and his ship flys like a Reaper, and even resembles one (without legs) The big red "eye" is it's main weapon and fires a beam just like a Reaper one. Even that one line he says in this video, change "composed" to "indoctinated".

[BleedingUranium]

Arashi08 wrote...

I was also thinking about a conversation on here that took place a few hours ago regarding Cerberus possibly tampering with the VI on Thessia. I'm sure this has been brought up already, but how can you account for Shepard's Cipher triggering the beacon reactivation protocols? it was Shepard's connection to the cipher that caused the statue to crumble and reveal the beacon inside. So how could Cerberus reach the beacon and find the VI and manage to tamper with it?

AIs and Beacons are two seperate things. We never used the Beacon because we forgot about it after finding the tampered with and/or fabricated VI.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 15 novembre 2012 - 03:08 .

[CmdrShep80]

Andromidius wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Um you do realize Ash called Shepard captin when she was reciting a poem if you romanced her in ME1. " Oh my captin my captin."

Well I didn't.  So she's got no business doing that.  Only Tali gets away with it.

Here's the strange thing. In ME1 Ash calls him Skipper. Could she be joking with him?

[401 Kill]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

I was also thinking about a conversation on here that took place a few hours ago regarding Cerberus possibly tampering with the VI on Thessia. I'm sure this has been brought up already, but how can you account for Shepard's Cipher triggering the beacon reactivation protocols? it was Shepard's connection to the cipher that caused the statue to crumble and reveal the beacon inside. So how could Cerberus reach the beacon and find the VI and manage to tamper with it?

AIs and Beacons are two seperate things. We never used the Beacon because we forgot about it after finding the tampered are fabricated VI.

Yeah, whoops:wub:.

That is actually interesting, the moment the beacon becomes available, Vendetta springs into action. We know Kai Lang was already in there for an undisclosed amount of time anyway...

[BatmanTurian]

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Um you do realize Ash called Shepard captin when she was reciting a poem if you romanced her in ME1. " Oh my captin my captin."

Well I didn't.  So she's got no business doing that.  Only Tali gets away with it.

Here's the strange thing. In ME1 Ash calls him Skipper. Could she be joking with him?

Technically, Commander Shepard is the captain of the normandy, so all of this is irrelevant.