80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Arashi08]

starlitegirlx wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
snip...

Feel free to ignore my wall of text and relevant points. I've grown used to that in this thread.

I never ignore your text walls. Frequently I agree with you and you bring to the table new insights, sometimes even things we have forgotten or not put the pieces together. This is a brilliant post. This is proof to me that Bioware are far from terrible writers. I think they just expected too much out of their audience.

Thanks. I think the problem is, and I hate to say it, but the majority of younger people don't use their minds. And the majority of gamers are younger people. My closest friend is a teacher and has been for a decade. They smack the teacher hoping to knock some sense into the kids who do consistently poorly in school and testing. People are getting dumber. They are choosing not to think. Granted, we all like mindless amusement or activity at times, but when it becomes the norm, society is on a decline. This is the case with games and the media industry on whole. It caters to idiocy or lack of thinking. When it comes up with something intelligent that goes over the heads of its literalist audience who don't understand symbology, foreshadowing, subplots, subtext, etc - well then you get a lot of people who defend insane ideas and opinions. You get a lot of people who want synthesis and control ending to look like utopia because they weren't paying attention for three frackin' games. I, personally, have little tolerance for those people, which is why I come to this thread when I want some intelligent thoughts to ponder regarding this series.

Granted, I do want closure for my shepard in ME3 so I guess I'm not totally different from the people who wanted the original sucky endings changed, but for IT, they did nothing. Destroy people who followed the story as it was meant to be followed got the shaft. We paid attention. We understood the symbology and context and subtext and subplots and we didn't choose endings that were foreshadowed throughout the series as the most destructive endings possible, and we got screwed. Sorry, but we did. If IT wasn't ingrained so wholly into my thoughts and reasoning, I'd pick control just because at least it doesn't leave me wanting to hang myself. *sigh*

Sadly, mindless drivel has become profitable, and people think too subjecively to understand how their actions affect others.  they want to either be heroes but don't understand that a hero isn't perfect otherwise why would there be a story, or they want to be evil because they get to release their pent up frustration and explore their darker sides that they can't do in real life.

But im hopeful that true storytelling will return and people will actually WANT to have their minds stimulated again one day.  Storiies have helped us understand ourselves and each other since the beginning of human history and I believe they will make a comeback.

[BatmanTurian]

Arashi08 wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
snip...

Feel free to ignore my wall of text and relevant points. I've grown used to that in this thread.

I never ignore your text walls. Frequently I agree with you and you bring to the table new insights, sometimes even things we have forgotten or not put the pieces together. This is a brilliant post. This is proof to me that Bioware are far from terrible writers. I think they just expected too much out of their audience.

Thanks. I think the problem is, and I hate to say it, but the majority of younger people don't use their minds. And the majority of gamers are younger people. My closest friend is a teacher and has been for a decade. They smack the teacher hoping to knock some sense into the kids who do consistently poorly in school and testing. People are getting dumber. They are choosing not to think. Granted, we all like mindless amusement or activity at times, but when it becomes the norm, society is on a decline. This is the case with games and the media industry on whole. It caters to idiocy or lack of thinking. When it comes up with something intelligent that goes over the heads of its literalist audience who don't understand symbology, foreshadowing, subplots, subtext, etc - well then you get a lot of people who defend insane ideas and opinions. You get a lot of people who want synthesis and control ending to look like utopia because they weren't paying attention for three frackin' games. I, personally, have little tolerance for those people, which is why I come to this thread when I want some intelligent thoughts to ponder regarding this series.

Granted, I do want closure for my shepard in ME3 so I guess I'm not totally different from the people who wanted the original sucky endings changed, but for IT, they did nothing. Destroy people who followed the story as it was meant to be followed got the shaft. We paid attention. We understood the symbology and context and subtext and subplots and we didn't choose endings that were foreshadowed throughout the series as the most destructive endings possible, and we got screwed. Sorry, but we did. If IT wasn't ingrained so wholly into my thoughts and reasoning, I'd pick control just because at least it doesn't leave me wanting to hang myself. *sigh*

Sadly, mindless drivel has become profitable, and people think too subjecively to understand how their actions affect others.  they want to either be heroes but don't understand that a hero isn't perfect otherwise why would there be a story, or they want to be evil because they get to release their pent up frustration and explore their darker sides that they can't do in real life.

But im hopeful that true storytelling will return and people will actually WANT to have their minds stimulated again one day.  Storiies have helped us understand ourselves and each other since the beginning of human history and I believe they will make a comeback.

As our technology becomes more powerful, the medium will become more flexible, and complex stories will become the norm. I'm sure there will still be simple, childish stories, but the medium will drive the storytelling and the medium is looking to become very lifelike in the next 10-20 years.

[Arashi08]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Personally I think it is because they wrote it in a way one might write for a novel or a film, where you aren't interacting with the story you are watching.  The idea was brilliant, but they didn't really write in in a sense that was satisfactory for people who are more engaged in the story. 

The ME3 endings make me think of the ending to Persona 3 which, while sad, is a really well done ending imo, mainly because the bonds you establish with each character are what gives you the power to defeat the "final boss" of the game.  It makes you feel like you understand these characters you form bonds with and how powerful simply having hope and support can be, especially coupled witht he knowledge that it was human weakness that created the problems in the first place.

ME3's endings feel similar to me in that sense, because it was the arrogance of the leviathans that created the Reapers and lead to their demise as a species.  It seems to illustrate that elevating yourself above another is weakness not strength.  and Shepard also forms relationships with people and even whole civilizations that make galactic resistance possible.  Shepard represents hope in a galaxy where it has all but been snuffed out once the Reapers arrive.

Let's just call it what it is: The Mass Effect series is a western visual novel trilogy. Only nobody got the novel part and thought it was just about shooting things, having sex with aliens, and manipulating mass and gravity.

Basically

And this fact basically pissed me off, as a novelist myself. If it were me, I'd be like " Why did I even do this? Well at least a few people understood what I was trying to say."

That's how I initially felt as a writer while seeing these endings, and I still do feel that way with regards to how they implemented it.  I suppose it is a good thing I'm having trouble with my own novel in a way.  On the one hand it means I can take my time and began to truly understand what I want to write and what my story is really about.  Of course, if this keeps me from actually WRITING it, then it isn't so good.

If it were me who wrote the endings I might think.  "Well... THAT didn't work.  Clearly I didn't illustrate what I was trying to accomplish with this story.  Sure, SOME people got it, but what good is a story if people don't understand what you are trying to say?"  of course this might be weeks after the backlash and I stopped crying all over my keyboard lol

I think one fo the problems is people have a hard time seeing video games as art.  Of course, not all video games are "art" in that sense.  Some video games are just "games."  something you play to amuse yourself.  But there ARE some games that try to tell a serious story or provide a different visual style or just do something DIFFERENT. 
And of course the fact that Roger Ebert tried to say that video games can never be art didn't help either...  Clearly we have seen instances where they CAN be art and the ME series, I think, is one such game series.

[BatmanTurian]

Arashi08 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Personally I think it is because they wrote it in a way one might write for a novel or a film, where you aren't interacting with the story you are watching.  The idea was brilliant, but they didn't really write in in a sense that was satisfactory for people who are more engaged in the story. 

The ME3 endings make me think of the ending to Persona 3 which, while sad, is a really well done ending imo, mainly because the bonds you establish with each character are what gives you the power to defeat the "final boss" of the game.  It makes you feel like you understand these characters you form bonds with and how powerful simply having hope and support can be, especially coupled witht he knowledge that it was human weakness that created the problems in the first place.

ME3's endings feel similar to me in that sense, because it was the arrogance of the leviathans that created the Reapers and lead to their demise as a species.  It seems to illustrate that elevating yourself above another is weakness not strength.  and Shepard also forms relationships with people and even whole civilizations that make galactic resistance possible.  Shepard represents hope in a galaxy where it has all but been snuffed out once the Reapers arrive.

Let's just call it what it is: The Mass Effect series is a western visual novel trilogy. Only nobody got the novel part and thought it was just about shooting things, having sex with aliens, and manipulating mass and gravity.

Basically

And this fact basically pissed me off, as a novelist myself. If it were me, I'd be like " Why did I even do this? Well at least a few people understood what I was trying to say."

That's how I initially felt as a writer while seeing these endings, and I still do feel that way with regards to how they implemented it.  I suppose it is a good thing I'm having trouble with my own novel in a way.  On the one hand it means I can take my time and began to truly understand what I want to write and what my story is really about.  Of course, if this keeps me from actually WRITING it, then it isn't so good.

If it were me who wrote the endings I might think.  "Well... THAT didn't work.  Clearly I didn't illustrate what I was trying to accomplish with this story.  Sure, SOME people got it, but what good is a story if people don't understand what you are trying to say?"  of course this might be weeks after the backlash and I stopped crying all over my keyboard lol

I think one fo the problems is people have a hard time seeing video games as art.  Of course, not all video games are "art" in that sense.  Some video games are just "games."  something you play to amuse yourself.  But there ARE some games that try to tell a serious story or provide a different visual style or just do something DIFFERENT. 
And of course the fact that Roger Ebert tried to say that video games can never be art didn't help either...  Clearly we have seen instances where they CAN be art and the ME series, I think, is one such game series.

Well, Ebert is kind of an idiot. I mean, he had to watch Cloud Atlas like 3 times to get it... and he admitted he still didn't quite get it after the third time. He's kind of overrated.

[BatmanTurian]

starlitegirlx wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

Personally I think it is because they wrote it in a way one might write for a novel or a film, where you aren't interacting with the story you are watching.  The idea was brilliant, but they didn't really write in in a sense that was satisfactory for people who are more engaged in the story. 

The ME3 endings make me think of the ending to Persona 3 which, while sad, is a really well done ending imo, mainly because the bonds you establish with each character are what gives you the power to defeat the "final boss" of the game.  It makes you feel like you understand these characters you form bonds with and how powerful simply having hope and support can be, especially coupled witht he knowledge that it was human weakness that created the problems in the first place.

ME3's endings feel similar to me in that sense, because it was the arrogance of the leviathans that created the Reapers and lead to their demise as a species.  It seems to illustrate that elevating yourself above another is weakness not strength.  and Shepard also forms relationships with people and even whole civilizations that make galactic resistance possible.  Shepard represents hope in a galaxy where it has all but been snuffed out once the Reapers arrive.

Let's just call it what it is: The Mass Effect series is a western visual novel trilogy. Only nobody got the novel part and thought it was just about shooting things, having sex with aliens, and manipulating mass and gravity.

Most people didn't get it. We did. Problem is we're in the minority. I don't mind that. I don't even care that people want to play games and be mindless. I want to do that when I'm stressed or not in the best of health to distract myself. But when it's this trilogy, which was so brilliantly done, and then by ME3 they were catering to a much wider audience full of people who are just as you describe and we get the shaft because of it, I'm pissed. My shepard is lying it rubble. I don't even know where. Reapers are still harvesting. And people are talking about ME4? How about we finish ME3 first! Finish it so that those of us who were paying attention aren't punished for it.

Unless of course the whole thing is a statement in predeterminism and how there never was a way out because how do you stop these machines? Mind controlling machines that turn you into hideous things. I often wonder if that wasn't the point all along. There are things in life you just don't have control over and there are things in life you cannot change. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, given that control and synthesis are the main themes (destroy actually isn't a theme when you think about it), it seems quite likely that a very wise statement being made by BW was that there are things you just cannot control and cannot change and this is one of them. I guess I could live with that ending. It's just sad, but it's also wise and something that mirrors life perfectly. Right now, my life is proof of that, which is probably why I needed a better ending. I cannot control or change my situation, my health, my life circumstances, so it would be nice to play it out in a game, at least. Too bad the point is lost of most of their players, but I'm now fairly certain that given the themes, the destroy ending is actually quite perfect. If you got the themes, you understand it and why leaving it makes it really hit home.

Yeah, they said it would be bittersweet and they weren't joking. I still hold out hope that puzzle theory will win out and we will have some kind of closure. If not, guess we'll find out what happened in ME4 (not that I like that idea, mind you, but that would be the easy way out for them).

[shadoww6021]

BatmanTurian wrote...


Well, Ebert is kind of an idiot. I mean, he had to watch Cloud Atlas like 3 times to get it... and he admitted he still didn't quite get it after the third time. He's kind of overrated.

i second this.

[Arashi08]

shadoww6021 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...


Well, Ebert is kind of an idiot. I mean, he had to watch Cloud Atlas like 3 times to get it... and he admitted he still didn't quite get it after the third time. He's kind of overrated.

i second this.

ya but he and Gene were STILL right about North

[BatmanTurian]

Arashi08 wrote...

shadoww6021 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...


Well, Ebert is kind of an idiot. I mean, he had to watch Cloud Atlas like 3 times to get it... and he admitted he still didn't quite get it after the third time. He's kind of overrated.

i second this.

ya but he and Gene were STILL right about North

Maybe. He had Gene to balance him. I think he was better when he was with Gene, so he didn't go off on tangents.

[BleedingUranium]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Well, Ebert is kind of an idiot. I mean, he had to watch Cloud Atlas like 3 times to get it... and he admitted he still didn't quite get it after the third time. He's kind of overrated.

From the trailer I saw it looked... odd. What is it really about that this guy didn't get?

[dorktainian]

did this lack of intelligence scenario extend to the writers? they should be sent to the naughty room to examine storywriting and structure.

[BleedingUranium]

dorktainian wrote...

did this lack of intelligence scenario extend to the writers? they should be sent to the naughty room to examine storywriting and structure.

[paxxton]

Puzzle Theory doesn't involve IT. Or does it?

Modifié par paxxton, 15 novembre 2012 - 06:55 .

[BleedingUranium]

paxxton wrote...

Puzzle Theory doesn't involve IT AFAIK.

Yeah it does. PT is that we will get more and more info and hints with each DLC released, and they'll form a complete picture. Like a puzzle.

[Arashi08]

starlitegirlx wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

did this lack of intelligence scenario extend to the writers? they should be sent to the naughty room to examine storywriting and structure.

The only lack of intelligence is the one of the player that missed all the foreshadowing, subplots, themes, context, etc.

People who think ME series lacked intelligence are projecting. Plain and simple, they don't understand anything beyond mindless gaming.

Still, you can't  exclude the writers from blame entirely.  If it was indeed their intention they clearly could have implemented better.  It has been implemented really well in other games before, so it isn't entirely the fault of the fans who didn't understand it.  it may well have been a combined effort of lacking understanding.

[spotlessvoid]

The problem is the okay one more story line. If I just got told an epic tail and get promised one more story, and the story ends up being "oh wait I forgot he did a couple other side things during the first story I told you" I'm calling grandpa a troll.

[spotlessvoid]

Also, the destroy high ems EC should have some kind of freaking explanation for Shepard. Everyone's favorite space bro isn't going to just say "We'll worry where Shepard is later" Booooo.

[paxxton]

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Puzzle Theory doesn't involve IT AFAIK.

Yeah it does. PT is that we will get more and more info and hints with each DLC released, and they'll form a complete picture. Like a puzzle.

Yeah, I've just read it. It somewhat coincides with what I and smokingotter1 were saying that each Act gets its own SP DLC and each DLC adds to the ending.

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

The problem is the okay one more story line. If I just got told an epic tail and get promised one more story, and the story ends up being "oh wait I forgot he did a couple other side things during the first story I told you" I'm calling grandpa a troll.

Stargazer: "**** no boss fight!"

[BleedingUranium]

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Puzzle Theory doesn't involve IT AFAIK.

Yeah it does. PT is that we will get more and more info and hints with each DLC released, and they'll form a complete picture. Like a puzzle.

Yeah, I've just read it. It somewhat coincides with what I and smokingotter1 were saying that each Act gets its own SP DLC and each DLC adds to the ending.

It's not really a theory, because they are doing it 

[paxxton]

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Puzzle Theory doesn't involve IT AFAIK.

Yeah it does. PT is that we will get more and more info and hints with each DLC released, and they'll form a complete picture. Like a puzzle.

Yeah, I've just read it. It somewhat coincides with what I and smokingotter1 were saying that each Act gets its own SP DLC and each DLC adds to the ending.

It's not really a theory, because they are doing it 

Cool. It makes sense.  I understand it as an extension of IT, or a concise robust explanation of IT (with evidence).

[spotlessvoid]

Harbinger going solo guarding the beam, missing Shepard enough to burn his armour yet Shepard is relatively okay, Normandy pick up, Harbinger flying off leaving the only access to the citadel that happens to be 100m from the crucible controls completely unguarded, no cerberus or reaper troops on the citadel to attack Shepard. And there has to be Reaper troops on the Citadel, otherwise wtf are the people on it doing? You would think TIM would have a few nemesis and phantoms with him as body guards. The thing is, they have thousands of Reapers and can drop troops right out of the sky. If the beam truly leads to the Citadel, it's the single most vital place to defend. Never mind them not turning it off when there was only Marauder Shields and and the 3 husketeers there. If they just have to leave it on....they couldn't spare just a couple of Reapers? Not even one Reaper to stand guard when Harbinger leaves, just in case just one person isn't completely dead or is hiding, or another group of troops is coming in? That's saturday morning cartoon villain stupid..And that's not even mentioning starchild....all this is either bad writing in the classic super inept bad guy style, or there is something else going on. Or did Bioware really completely lose their collective minds in the last 15 minutes?