80611 réponses à ce sujet

[hukbum]

Mixon wrote...

we are hearing about indocrination from ME1 till ME3 and never tasted it on our owns.

The whole TIM scene screams indoctrination ...

[MegumiAzusa]

starlitegirlx wrote...

I'm still wondering if BW is running some kind of sociological study on its gamers. We're all test subjects. Those who see IT are the outliers, the minority, the ones that cannot be indoctrinated or can break free from it. Those who don't evolve into indoctrinated drones that don't think for themselves. They are the masses. Always have been. Always will be.

This sense of superiority isn't one bit better.

[MaximizedAction]

estebanus wrote...

byne wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

EDI would risk non functionality. I think EDI would choose destroy to make sure the Reaper threat is actually gone. Unlike when, you know, they're still there. The Geth....I think Legion would probably choose destroy, don't know bout the others. I know my Shepard would rebuild the geth. Not the same I know, but it would be the best way to pay tribute.

Legion stated in the past that we should create our own future, not take once that is given to us.

And that is destroy in a nutshell.

Would you pick destroy if it just wiped out all humans?

I would.

Yup. The war isn't about humanity. It's about things so much bigger than any one of the races. It's about ending a cycle of mass genocide that has been a recurring galactic nightmare for millions, if not billions of years. 

Humanity seems like a small sacrifice when looking at it that way, I personally think.

What I read
"The war isn't about humanity, it's about things so much bigger than ALL OF US."
Whose line was similar to that...hmmm...

Anyway I think this is a horrible discussion. And you guys would make for horrible diplomates.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 15 novembre 2012 - 05:33 .

[Davik Kang]

 I really need to go do some work, but in the meantime, I'll leave with a fairly basic observation that in the final chamber, we choose Shepard's fate:

- as a synthetic (Shepard-based AI in Control)
- as a hybrid/Reaper/Reaper food (leap of faith into Crucible beam in Synthesis)
- as a human (Destroy, no self-alteration required)

Also it's been posted many tiomes before I'm sure, but if you haven't watched it in a while, check out the last 15 minutes of the One Choice video.  It goes into foreshadowing for Synthesis very nicely.

[Restrider]

GT Zazzerka wrote...

That is most certainly the Shepard shuffle.

Apologies for spamming up the thread with Liara, but maybe they shouldn't taken away the thread where I can do that.

Off-topic:
You know what I really like about Liara, she is one of the only squadmembers that does not wear high-heels into battle. Okay, with the exception of Jack and Kasumi. Tali wears the Quarian version of high-heels.

[Dwailing]

starlitegirlx wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

I'm still wondering if BW is running some kind of sociological study on its gamers. We're all test subjects. Those who see IT are the outliers, the minority, the ones that cannot be indoctrinated or can break free from it. Those who don't evolve into indoctrinated drones that don't think for themselves. They are the masses. Always have been. Always will be.

This sense of superiority isn't one bit better.

It's not superiority if it's a fact. Look around you. The world is filled with automotons who just act and don't think. We're all indoctrinated to a myriad of beliefs. Some are far more dangerous than others. Some seem harmless but are destructive nevertheless. If you aren't aware of how various elements of  the world will use and manipulate you to their agends either for profit or power or whatever else they want, then you are a tool and at some point in life people should be able to figure it out. If not, they do lack the ability to see through the veil of lies that we are told and yet one by one these lies are peeled away like layers on an onion until the truth is seen. How many times does one have to see that to figure out the only true path is the one that is yours and follows nobody else's as laid out for you.

People either wake up and see what is happening or they don't. That is not superiority. It is not a sense of superiority. It is awareness and not taking things at face value or as they are told to you. It is having a mind of your own that you use to discover truth. You don't just accept something as truth because it was handed to you on a silver platter. You set out to discover truth, your truth or truth in general.

Label me or my words as you will. It is of little concern to me. I am awake. I am aware. Does that make me superior? No. It makes me awake, aware and able to discern what is a lie or manipulation from what is not.

Have you ever played Deus Ex?  I get the feeling it's a game you would enjoy.

[ElSuperGecko]

starlitegirlx wrote...
It's not superiority if it's a fact. Look around you. The world is filled with automotons who just act and don't think. We're all indoctrinated to a myriad of beliefs. Some are far more dangerous than others. Some seem harmless but are destructive nevertheless. If you aren't aware of how various elements of  the world will use and manipulate you to their agends either for profit or power or whatever else they want, then you are a tool and at some point in life people should be able to figure it out. If not, they do lack the ability to see through the veil of lies that we are told and yet one by one these lies are peeled away like layers on an onion until the truth is seen. How many times does one have to see that to figure out the only true path is the one that is yours and follows nobody else's as laid out for you.

People either wake up and see what is happening or they don't. That is not superiority. It is not a sense of superiority. It is awareness and not taking things at face value or as they are told to you. It is having a mind of your own that you use to discover truth. You don't just accept something as truth because it was handed to you on a silver platter. You set out to discover truth, your truth or truth in general.

Label me or my words as you will. It is of little concern to me. I am awake. I am aware. Does that make me superior? No. It makes me awake, aware and able to discern what is a lie or manipulation from what is not.

Well said.

It certainly doesn't make me feel happy or superior when I see people not even thinking about or considering (or worse, ignoring) the lore behind the Mass Effect series, the conversations we've had and the events we've witnessed over the course of the three games when we talk about the final decision in the game.

In fact, when I see people simply forgetting their experiences altogether in favour of taking everything the Catalyst tells you as the gospel truth, it really makes me quite sad.

[Restrider]

starlitegirlx wrote...
I'm not mad or depressed by it. I'm disgusted. Why? Because it's not like we're talking about something that is hard to miss or figure out. We're talking about (in this specific case regarding this game) a simple willingness to examine information provided rather than run through it on autopilot. If you want, you can apply it across the board to pretty much everything in life. But the fact remains that closed minds win. And they are idiots. It's not dangerous to call an idiot an idiot. It's dangerous to NOT identify them and see them for what they are particularly since they are in the majority and are sheeple. They do far more harm to society and people than good. Why? They don't think. They cause problems. They make bad and weak choices. They roll through life like automotons and lead to the downward spiral of civilizations. We are currently in a spiral such as that. In america, the majority of kids are glued to TV, ipods, iphones, games, movies... whatever keeps them from thinking a rational thought. They are the future generation and they are going to be quite dangerous in a sheeple kind of way. When you see an idiot, you acknowledge them as an idiot. Maybe not to their face unless they're doing something truly stupid. But in general, humoring them and ignoring them is a the worst path to take. Didn't garrus say he wasn't a good turian because a good turian hears a bad order, knows it is a bad order and follows it anyway? Well put. But in that case, the turian knows it so they are not complete idiots. What's the other saying? The one about good people doing nothing in the face of evil? All it takes for evil to rise is for good men to do nothing? Something like that. Well, 'evil' (too broad to get into but covers damage to humanity in general) represents idiocy. Seeing idiocy and doing nothing. Not calling it out as idiocy or IGNORANCE. Ignorance is the better word probably.

I avoid news and most TV unless it's interesting, scifi and fairly intelligent as well.

I see your point. But I am tired of trying to convince others to be rational only to start an avalanche of strawmen and ad hominems.
Anyways, maybe I feel better since I have no real contact to "normal" sheeple anymore. It's good to work in a safe place...

[demersel]

starlitegirlx wrote...

Gerrel's actions foreshadow destroy. Stupid or not, they foreshadow it. You can't say virmire foreshadows it and Gerrel's don't. That's illogical.

Virmire, hot labs, thorian and rachni queen are all examples of destroy but they are not as perfectly done and paralleling the choice in the chamber as gerrel's choice. They were not ruthless calculus of war in the same way. Nothing about destroying them, to me, seems ruthless. We know virmire is a clear and imminent threat regarding breeding krogan for sovereign as well as indoctrination testing. We know of the rachni wars and that the rachni are a threat. We know the thorian is spitting out creepers and controlling colonists. None of those actions are ruthless calculus of war or they would have all given us renegade points. They are actions that must be taken to stop Sovereign. They are examples of destroy but they don't foreshadow the depth of the dilemma we face in the chamber which gerrel's actions do.

I'm sorry, did you just say that an action connot be considered a ruthless calculus of war unless  it gives renegade points? What is wrong with you? 

Modifié par demersel, 15 novembre 2012 - 06:14 .

[Restrider]

GT Zazzerka wrote...

Restrider wrote...
So, I've heard that the Mirandamancers were invading other threads and trolling, but I've seen that in the Spoilers Forum as well (betwee anti/pro enders, anti/pro ITers, etc.).
What did they do to get the whole forum locked?

Not sure if they were invading other threads, but they were having a super-melodramatic civil war in their thread, resulting in some of it's members splitting off and creating a new thread. It was all disagreements about certain aspects of her character. Apparently that was enough for Chris to lock the entire sub-forum, which seems like a bit of an overreaction.

The man has also expressed a dislike for the romance part of the game, so maybe that has something to do with it as well.

Weird....
Simply locking the threads and/or banning those responsible for stiring up the sh!t should've done the job.

[BatmanTurian]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
It's not superiority if it's a fact. Look around you. The world is filled with automotons who just act and don't think. We're all indoctrinated to a myriad of beliefs. Some are far more dangerous than others. Some seem harmless but are destructive nevertheless. If you aren't aware of how various elements of  the world will use and manipulate you to their agends either for profit or power or whatever else they want, then you are a tool and at some point in life people should be able to figure it out. If not, they do lack the ability to see through the veil of lies that we are told and yet one by one these lies are peeled away like layers on an onion until the truth is seen. How many times does one have to see that to figure out the only true path is the one that is yours and follows nobody else's as laid out for you.

People either wake up and see what is happening or they don't. That is not superiority. It is not a sense of superiority. It is awareness and not taking things at face value or as they are told to you. It is having a mind of your own that you use to discover truth. You don't just accept something as truth because it was handed to you on a silver platter. You set out to discover truth, your truth or truth in general.

Label me or my words as you will. It is of little concern to me. I am awake. I am aware. Does that make me superior? No. It makes me awake, aware and able to discern what is a lie or manipulation from what is not.

Well said.

It certainly doesn't make me feel happy or superior when I see people not even thinking about or considering (or worse, ignoring) the lore behind the Mass Effect series, the conversations we've had and the events we've witnessed over the course of the three games when we talk about the final decision in the game.

In fact, when I see people simply forgetting their experiences altogether in favour of taking everything the Catalyst tells you as the gospel truth, it really makes me quite sad.

Agreed. The ignorance cloaked in faux-intellectual arguments makes me facepalm every time. I can't even go into the Synthesis Compendium thread. I know I'll want to say something and everyone in there will just ignore the facts to support their favored headcanon.

[Ithurael]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Well said.

It certainly doesn't make me feel happy or superior when I see people not even thinking about or considering (or worse, ignoring) the lore behind the Mass Effect series, the conversations we've had and the events we've witnessed over the course of the three games when we talk about the final decision in the game.

In fact, when I see people simply forgetting their experiences altogether in favour of taking everything the Catalyst tells you as the gospel truth, it really makes me quite sad.

Technically if we don't trust anything he says then refuse is the ultimate indoctrination-breaker.

He presents you with all three options but hides refuse, you need to go one step futher to chose it (either by shooting him or using the dialog wheel to reject him). If any ending breaks indoctrination it would be refuse because you are:
1 - rejecting all logic and choices (thus rejecting the indoctrination completly)
2 - Shepard acts like shepard showing that the reaper influence has not broken him down.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that Refuse is the best option.

[FifthBeatle]

Mixon wrote...

Back to thread.
Even after EC, last minutes looks not natural to game it self.
+ we are hearing about indocrination from ME1 till ME3 and never tasted it on our owns. Shepard is an ultra hero, but not a superman. Thats why in IT I trust and in Rebirth dlc. We may not play as Shepard in next ME parts, but he can stay alive as Gray Warden.

That is why I get so upset when people who take the endings litterally complain about the ending. Regardless of all the clues about how odd the TIM/Anderson confrontation is and how the decision chamber appears to mimick the beam run, how can they not piece together what is happening throughout the entire game and not see that the biggest weapon the Reapers have has not been unleashed on Shepard?

I remain cautiously optimistic that there will be some sort of "Shepard Wakes Up" DLC, but I have been perfectly satisfied with the endings since the first time I played. It does not even require "headcanon."

[MegumiAzusa]

starlitegirlx wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

I'm still wondering if BW is running some kind of sociological study on its gamers. We're all test subjects. Those who see IT are the outliers, the minority, the ones that cannot be indoctrinated or can break free from it. Those who don't evolve into indoctrinated drones that don't think for themselves. They are the masses. Always have been. Always will be.

This sense of superiority isn't one bit better.

It's not superiority if it's a fact. Look around you. The world is filled with automotons who just act and don't think. We're all indoctrinated to a myriad of beliefs. Some are far more dangerous than others. Some seem harmless but are destructive nevertheless. If you aren't aware of how various elements of  the world will use and manipulate you to their agends either for profit or power or whatever else they want, then you are a tool and at some point in life people should be able to figure it out. If not, they do lack the ability to see through the veil of lies that we are told and yet one by one these lies are peeled away like layers on an onion until the truth is seen. How many times does one have to see that to figure out the only true path is the one that is yours and follows nobody else's as laid out for you.

People either wake up and see what is happening or they don't. That is not superiority. It is not a sense of superiority. It is awareness and not taking things at face value or as they are told to you. It is having a mind of your own that you use to discover truth. You don't just accept something as truth because it was handed to you on a silver platter. You set out to discover truth, your truth or truth in general.

Label me or my words as you will. It is of little concern to me. I am awake. I am aware. Does that make me superior? No. It makes me awake, aware and able to discern what is a lie or manipulation from what is not.

http://social.biowar...7/1830#14898576
There are certainly lies, but not everything is. With that post you claim to always have the answer, and you ignore everything that counters it. There is more then enough for both so you cannot know which is real, but you say not believing in IT or something similar is stupid. I quote "But you know what the sadest part is - that they are indoctrinated due to their own idiocy. [...] Who is strong minded enough to get it and who is not. Who can see beyond the literal and who cannot. [...] Those who see IT are the outliers, the minority, the ones that cannot be indoctrinated or can break free from it. Those who don't evolve into indoctrinated drones that don't think for themselves." That is not seeing the truth. That is a blind reflection of what you think is right and you know about the contents of the games.

[masster blaster]

Virmire, hot labs, thorian and rachni queen are all examples of destroy but they are not as perfectly done and paralleling the choice in the chamber as gerrel's choice. They were not ruthless calculus of war in the same way. Nothing about destroying them, to me, seems ruthless. We know virmire is a clear and imminent threat regarding breeding krogan for sovereign as well as indoctrination testing. We know of the rachni wars and that the rachni are a threat. We know the thorian is spitting out creepers and controlling colonists. None of those actions are ruthless calculus of war or they would have all given us renegade points. They are actions that must be taken to stop Sovereign. They are examples of destroy but they don't foreshadow the depth of the dilemma we face in the chamber which gerrel's actions do


Um no. Virmire is actually a forshasow in Destroy.

When Wrex learns that there is a cure for the Genophage that Saren/ Nazar made. Wrex begins to wonder if he should join Saren. Think about it. Wrex even say " The lines between friend and foe are wearing thin." Wrex would have killed Shepard were it not for Shepard doing Wrex's family matter, and reminding him that these Krogan are slaves.

So in return we blow up the base knowing that there was the only chance at the time to cure the Genophage. So in matter of short.

We lost Kadin, or Ash.

A chance for the Krogan to finally have a cure.

And the mindless Salarians that can't escape the blast, if you let them live.

Oh crap remember that Salarian we found that says he isn't Indoctrinated. Could he have been that mole in STG?

[spotlessvoid]

It's synthesis real world counterparts that trouble me. Eugenics, Transhumanism, Collectivism, etc may have lofty ideas buried inside them, but the attempts at implementing them have been...problematic.

[Ithurael]

spotlessvoid wrote...

It's synthesis real world counterparts that trouble me. Eugenics, Transhumanism, Collectivism, etc may have lofty ideas buried inside them, but the attempts at implementing them have been...problematic.

Because the implementors didn't have a giant beam to jump into
:wizard:

[masster blaster]

Oh crap remember that Salarian we found that says he isn't Indoctrinated. Could he have been that mole in STG?

I mean the one we found on Virmire. Could he be the mole in STG.

Rana wasn't Indoctrinated at the time, but in ME3 if you let her live, she kills the Asari high command, and kills herself.

Also Kirrha even say " I guess we all still feel the effects of Virmire."

What if that's when Shepard got the seeds planted in his/her mind, but it took the Reapers time to create a world to Indoctrinate Shepard.

[BatmanTurian]

Ithurael wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Well said.

It certainly doesn't make me feel happy or superior when I see people not even thinking about or considering (or worse, ignoring) the lore behind the Mass Effect series, the conversations we've had and the events we've witnessed over the course of the three games when we talk about the final decision in the game.

In fact, when I see people simply forgetting their experiences altogether in favour of taking everything the Catalyst tells you as the gospel truth, it really makes me quite sad.

Technically if we don't trust anything he says then refuse is the ultimate indoctrination-breaker.

He presents you with all three options but hides refuse, you need to go one step futher to chose it (either by shooting him or using the dialog wheel to reject him). If any ending breaks indoctrination it would be refuse because you are:
1 - rejecting all logic and choices (thus rejecting the indoctrination completly)
2 - Shepard acts like shepard showing that the reaper influence has not broken him down.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that Refuse is the best option.

Wrong. Destroy is what he doesn't want you to pick. Refuse is something he just doesn't expect.

[MegumiAzusa]

BatmanTurian wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...
It's not superiority if it's a fact. Look around you. The world is filled with automotons who just act and don't think. We're all indoctrinated to a myriad of beliefs. Some are far more dangerous than others. Some seem harmless but are destructive nevertheless. If you aren't aware of how various elements of  the world will use and manipulate you to their agends either for profit or power or whatever else they want, then you are a tool and at some point in life people should be able to figure it out. If not, they do lack the ability to see through the veil of lies that we are told and yet one by one these lies are peeled away like layers on an onion until the truth is seen. How many times does one have to see that to figure out the only true path is the one that is yours and follows nobody else's as laid out for you.

People either wake up and see what is happening or they don't. That is not superiority. It is not a sense of superiority. It is awareness and not taking things at face value or as they are told to you. It is having a mind of your own that you use to discover truth. You don't just accept something as truth because it was handed to you on a silver platter. You set out to discover truth, your truth or truth in general.

Label me or my words as you will. It is of little concern to me. I am awake. I am aware. Does that make me superior? No. It makes me awake, aware and able to discern what is a lie or manipulation from what is not.

Well said.

It certainly doesn't make me feel happy or superior when I see people not even thinking about or considering (or worse, ignoring) the lore behind the Mass Effect series, the conversations we've had and the events we've witnessed over the course of the three games when we talk about the final decision in the game.

In fact, when I see people simply forgetting their experiences altogether in favour of taking everything the Catalyst tells you as the gospel truth, it really makes me quite sad.

Agreed. The ignorance cloaked in faux-intellectual arguments makes me facepalm every time. I can't even go into the Synthesis Compendium thread. I know I'll want to say something and everyone in there will just ignore the facts to support their favored headcanon.

It doesn't matter which side is right, but how is that different from about 99% of the people who support IT?

[Restrider]

starlitegirlx wrote...

You're right about the option in ME1. In my first playthrough I chose the middle road to destroy the reaper or however it was worded  (it was the one on the right) rather than save the council or kill the council. To me, there was no logic for saving the council which should have been easily replaced and not considered renegade. You came there to stop the reaper. Sorry council, but the reaper was the priority. Nevermind you worked against me the whole game, but who in their right mind would not focus on destroying the reaper? There is no way to know (and frankly it's kind of lame) that you can do both - save the council and destroy the reaper. Anyone commander in that situation would have to be stupid to choose to save the council over destroying the reaper. I never took that game through to ME2 because after I saw how Udina responded I was sick. It was like BW at that moment presumed me to be an idiot that the humans could dominate because I chose to save the citadel and not waste fire power saving one ship full of toolish council members that should have all had lines of succession and not allowed for human dominance. They turned the wisest decision one could make in that moment into a joke since it was really about destroying sovereign so that it doesn't allow all the other reapers through. BUT it actually is a foreshadow of ME3 destroy option.

I guess there is a destroy foreshadow in each game. Destroy sovereign. Destroy the collector base. Destroy the dreadnaught. The last foreshadow is not a choice. But we do get a destroy choice in the end.

Yes, the ME1 end decision is tricky. Letting the Council die seems to be the most reasonable thing to do at the moment.
BUT the situation is actually more complicated. The Citadel arms open up at the same time and it's only about the question if the humans should wait and save resources or if they should come in earlier to save the Ascensions, which is depicted as one of the strongest ships in the galaxy having a 10 000 crew. Thinking about that decision a bit more, saving the Ascension and hoping to have access to its superior firepower in the combat against Sovereign, once the Ascension is out of close combat, is also a reasonable train of thought.