80611 réponses à ce sujet

[estebanus]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

DD....no. Bioware may also be kind of disappointed at the fan reaction and gone into a more defensive posture. "You don't get it? Fine here's a couple shiny pictures to look at. Now shut up and let the grown ups get their work done"

Or
"Stupid ITers will buy anything"

I mean if there really is no pay off, why won't Mike Gamble respond to the community managers comments that no additional content is coming. He's answered all my other questions, and even acknowledged the IT DLC question indirectly by answering another question in the same tweet. If what the community managers said is true, why have a dev remain completely silent about it?

Does trolling the most dedicated portion of their fanbase seem like it makes sense? Nobody believes in their ability more than ITers. Why the hell would they troll the people who revere them?

Have you ever considered that it might not be about Shepard might being indoctrinated but the question itself? Mass Effect has more then one layer, and you're only thinking on one all the time. You still act like everything is either right or wrong.

...Which it often isn't in fictional literature. This isn't math, where you know that the end result can only be two different things: Right or wrong. In fictional literature, it can be right, wrong, and everything inbetween.

[BatmanTurian]

estebanus wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

I'm still wondering if BW is running some kind of sociological study on its gamers. We're all test subjects. Those who see IT are the outliers, the minority, the ones that cannot be indoctrinated or can break free from it. Those who don't evolve into indoctrinated drones that don't think for themselves. They are the masses. Always have been. Always will be.

This sense of superiority isn't one bit better.

It's not superiority if it's a fact. Look around you. The world is filled with automotons who just act and don't think. We're all indoctrinated to a myriad of beliefs. Some are far more dangerous than others. Some seem harmless but are destructive nevertheless. If you aren't aware of how various elements of  the world will use and manipulate you to their agends either for profit or power or whatever else they want, then you are a tool and at some point in life people should be able to figure it out. If not, they do lack the ability to see through the veil of lies that we are told and yet one by one these lies are peeled away like layers on an onion until the truth is seen. How many times does one have to see that to figure out the only true path is the one that is yours and follows nobody else's as laid out for you.

People either wake up and see what is happening or they don't. That is not superiority. It is not a sense of superiority. It is awareness and not taking things at face value or as they are told to you. It is having a mind of your own that you use to discover truth. You don't just accept something as truth because it was handed to you on a silver platter. You set out to discover truth, your truth or truth in general.

Label me or my words as you will. It is of little concern to me. I am awake. I am aware. Does that make me superior? No. It makes me awake, aware and able to discern what is a lie or manipulation from what is not.

http://social.biowar...7/1830#14898576
There are certainly lies, but not everything is. With that post you claim to always have the answer, and you ignore everything that counters it. There is more then enough for both so you cannot know which is real, but you say not believing in IT or something similar is stupid. I quote "But you know what the sadest part is - that they are indoctrinated due to their own idiocy. [...] Who is strong minded enough to get it and who is not. Who can see beyond the literal and who cannot. [...] Those who see IT are the outliers, the minority, the ones that cannot be indoctrinated or can break free from it. Those who don't evolve into indoctrinated drones that don't think for themselves." That is not seeing the truth. That is a blind reflection of what you think is right and you know about the contents of the games.

You can say what you like, Megumi. A lack of intelligence is required to miss the clues in front of your face to solve a mystery

Thank you BatmanTurian!

Also, for the record, it can be said that I am indoctrinated to IT. However, my reasons are based on evidence, actual in game clues and symbology, dialogue, and common sense.

And I will take jabs at people who cannot see beyond the literal interpretation because I have no use for people who lack open mindedness and a willingness to see things from a different perspective. I chose control in my first run. Later I discovered IT and was openminded enough to learn about it as much as possible. Then I changed my perspective based on evidence which I took the time to gather. So yes, people are close minded fools if they don't even give other perspectives a chance. I've seen it in my life, and it is a dangerous thing.

Also, I did not say everything is a lie. That is a broad assumption you make to defend your reasoning which is flawed. I have said that you have to examine and learn. I have said that you have to decide. I have restated this consistently. Everything is not a lie. That would be impossible. That you even write that shows how desperately you're looking for a fight. Find it elsewhere. I refuse to debate with someone whose key point is as illogical as "there are certainly lies, but not everything is," which is the most absurd statement I've read to date and goes directly against my statement that you have to find the truth. By stating that one has to find the truth I have stated that there must be truth.

Not believing in IT is stupid. There is evidence throughout the entire game which only a slow minded, close minded individual or one who is not paying attention could miss. I will not defend people who ignore all the evidence because they are IDIOTS!

What you're saying is hypocrisy. You say that you hate people who aren't open-minded, while at the same time saying that Everyone who doesn't believe in the IT are close-minded idiots. Those two things can not cope.

To be fair, some of the people are, and if they've been exposed to IT and already rejected it as possible, then they aren't open-minded. That's accurate.

[demersel]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

The only thing that keeps me sceptical is Bioware's PR. Then again, if they intended to decieve us and blow us away later, it would make sense they would deny everything. I guess I just don't want to be disappointed. But I really can't help thinking these are hints, even though I have never really believed in the 'reveal'. It looks like I'm slowly coming around.

Am I the only one?

@DoomsdayDevice, I can tell you how i feel about it. I rushed through the game, as soon as I got my hands on it, back in march. The final section (Thessia, Horizon, Cronos, London, Citadel) - i did in one push - and it was really late at night - i finished early in the morning - so it all was a huge blur for me. I picked Destroy. Watched the cinamatic - Thought about it. 

I liked the ending. I felt at the moment that the ending might not be real, so the war is far from over and there will be further content via DLC. (it helped that the game basicly straight out told me that.)  - And i was pissed off, for having to wait up to a year to actually finish the story. 
But i liked the endings not only because of the possibility of IT (which is a 10 out of 10 ending for me), 
I thought that even if everything is literal - i'm also fine with it. It reminded me of the end of Fall of Hyperion, with the same tabula rasa fell to it. It was no doubt brutal, abrupt, and to simplified, but still an okey ending. I disliked the child through out the whole game, i considered everything he says BS, and just went to shoot that tube. 

Then the time went on, and finally the EC came out - i was really disgusted with the changes it made - it was insultingly dumd. It also completely changed the tabula rasa thing - and introdused the normandy pick up scene - which is beyond terrible and unprobable. - so the EC just straight out told me - YES there will be additional content to the endings. 

Leviathan was just awesome story wise, much better than i anticipated (especially after normandy pick up) and it was ALL about indoctrination. (and the actual leviathan part of it was not the most interesting).

Personally, I think that at the moment the ending is both literal and IT at the same time. And both are correct. It is a great example of superposition. Which is great. In this context it really makes no difference, wether the DLC is set dureing the game or post ending. - both will add to the game something that wasn't there before. And since there are DLCs coming - it is just simply a question of looking forward to more ME3 or not. I do look forward to more ME3 content.
 

Modifié par demersel, 15 novembre 2012 - 07:09 .

[clennon8]

spotlessvoid wrote...

The difference between IT and synthesis supporters is IT is still ultimately about a game interpretation, where synthesis is about deeply held beliefs. It's what synthesis represents, and their religious devotion to it, that is so disturbing. A lot of ITers are willing to concede Bioware may have messed up, but fund it doubtful based on in game evidence. Synthesis supporters in general seem like, no matter what Bioware could say, stand by that choice based on their view of humanity and the world in general.

Spot on, Spotless.  Synthesists look at the ending as a separate, distinct event, completely detached from everything that preceded it.  Viewed that way, free of all context, they can interpret it as upholding core, personal beliefs that are completely unsupported by the rest of the game series. It is indeed very "religious." Which makes it all the more ironic when Ieldra accuses us of being "fundamentalists."

Modifié par clennon8, 15 novembre 2012 - 07:06 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

It needs to be pointed out that a lot of people seem to misunderstand the puzzle theory; the puzzle theory is based on additions in the form of DLC eventually turning the refuse option into a successful victory, NOT the destroy option.

Which is why I can't support the puzzle theory. Your friends and allies tell you to destroy, not to 'don't do anything if you're unsure'. Not to mention the fact that refuse wasn't one of the original endings.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 15 novembre 2012 - 07:06 .

[spotlessvoid]

I'm fully aware that classic IT may not be the intent, or that it's just meant to be ambiguous. But having community managers make denials that a developer won't comment on, when the community managers deny everything as standard procedure, really really undermines what the community managers said. I'm sure they are fully aware that not commenting has created hope, and if there shouldn't be any hope then it's intentionally deceptive.

[estebanus]

BatmanTurian wrote...
To be fair, some of the people are, and if they've been exposed to IT and already rejected it as possible, then they aren't open-minded. That's accurate.

So what? It's still hypocrisy claiming two opposing things in the same few sentences. Saying that you hate all close-minded idiots while at the same time saying that everyone who doesn't believe your POV is hypocrisy. Also, it's not as if ITers themselves are god's gift to the world. Many of them used to (and some still do) act as if the IT is the one and only truth, Fingertrip included.

Modifié par estebanus, 15 novembre 2012 - 07:09 .

[paxxton]

If you have any credits to spare, buy and equip only the best of the best gear.
http://blog.bioware....ation-gearhead/

Modifié par paxxton, 15 novembre 2012 - 07:11 .

[spotlessvoid]

Actually Maximized, he responded to the Shepard in ME4 question with that statement. He refused to answer the two other questions of was the community managers statement official, and will there be IT DLC. Those were my tweets, I know because I remember face palming at having given him an exit strategy with the Shepard in me4 question

[BatmanTurian]

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
To be fair, some of the people are, and if they've been exposed to IT and already rejected it as possible, then they aren't open-minded. That's accurate.

So what? It's still hypocrisy claiming two opposing things in the same few sentences. Saying that you hate all close-minded idiots while at the same time saying that everyone who doesn't believe your POV is hypocrisy. Also, it's not as if ITers themselves are god's gift to the world. Many of them used to (and some still do) act as if the IT is the one and only truth, Fingertrip included.

When your pov is supported by facts, reason, and evidence, then yes, it's denied by close-minded people, much like how evolution is denied by creationists and a round earth is denied by flat earth supporters. And then there are the people that deny we ever went to the moon. >.>

[BatmanTurian]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

It needs to be pointed out that a lot of people seem to misunderstand the puzzle theory; the puzzle theory is based on additions in the form of DLC eventually turning the refuse option into a successful victory, NOT the destroy option.

Which is why I can't support the puzzle theory. Your friends and allies tell you to destroy, not to 'don't do anything if you're unsure'. Not to mention the fact that refuse wasn't one of the original endings.

I understand Puzzle Theory, but I don't believe it leads to a successful Refuse. It's the only part I disagree with Jade about. I think Refuse is the developers being passive-aggressive.

[estebanus]

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
To be fair, some of the people are, and if they've been exposed to IT and already rejected it as possible, then they aren't open-minded. That's accurate.

So what? It's still hypocrisy claiming two opposing things in the same few sentences. Saying that you hate all close-minded idiots while at the same time saying that everyone who doesn't believe your POV is hypocrisy. Also, it's not as if ITers themselves are god's gift to the world. Many of them used to (and some still do) act as if the IT is the one and only truth, Fingertrip included.

When your pov is supported by facts, reason, and evidence, then yes, it's denied by close-minded people, much like how evolution is denied by creationists and a round earth is denied by flat earth supporters. And then there are the people that deny we ever went to the moon. >.>

You can't deny that starlites post is full of hypocrisy. That's what I'm getting at. 

"And I will take jabs at people who cannot see beyond the literal interpretation because I have no use for people who lack open mindedness and a willingness to see things from a different perspective."

"Not believing in IT is stupid. There is evidence throughout the entire game which only a slow minded, close minded individual or one who is not paying attention could miss. I will not defend people who ignore all the evidence because they are IDIOTS!" 

If that isn't hypocrisy in your eyes, then what the hell is? 

You say that literalists are like creationists? hah:lol:

Modifié par estebanus, 15 novembre 2012 - 07:24 .

[MegumiAzusa]

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
To be fair, some of the people are, and if they've been exposed to IT and already rejected it as possible, then they aren't open-minded. That's accurate.

So what? It's still hypocrisy claiming two opposing things in the same few sentences. Saying that you hate all close-minded idiots while at the same time saying that everyone who doesn't believe your POV is hypocrisy. Also, it's not as if ITers themselves are god's gift to the world. Many of them used to (and some still do) act as if the IT is the one and only truth, Fingertrip included.

When your pov is supported by facts, reason, and evidence, then yes, it's denied by close-minded people, much like how evolution is denied by creationists and a round earth is denied by flat earth supporters. And then there are the people that deny we ever went to the moon. >.>

Problem is here the facts are from a media with more then one mistakes and rewrites. Also it's still because we, at least me, most don't, look at things which look solid and try if I can find errors. Most IT people, you including, usually throw things not fitting your POV out before looking, and no I wont search the threads for examples. And now starlitegirlx ignores everything not fitting his/her POV.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 15 novembre 2012 - 07:22 .

[clennon8]

I think PT and IT can coexist. Destroy and Refusal can each be rejections of indoctrination, leading to victories with different costs. Perhaps Refuse leads to larger losses across the board (but not a galactic wipeout as currently depicted) but doesn't require a genocidal sacrifice of the geth and EDI.

[MaximizedAction]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Actually Maximized, he responded to the Shepard in ME4 question with that statement. He refused to answer the two other questions of was the community managers statement official, and will there be IT DLC. Those were my tweets, I know because I remember face palming at having given him an exit strategy with the Shepard in me4 question

Ah ok, thanks for reminding me. Really forgot it was about Shepard being in ME4.

Oh well then, then everything is as possible as usual.

[BatmanTurian]

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
To be fair, some of the people are, and if they've been exposed to IT and already rejected it as possible, then they aren't open-minded. That's accurate.

So what? It's still hypocrisy claiming two opposing things in the same few sentences. Saying that you hate all close-minded idiots while at the same time saying that everyone who doesn't believe your POV is hypocrisy. Also, it's not as if ITers themselves are god's gift to the world. Many of them used to (and some still do) act as if the IT is the one and only truth, Fingertrip included.

When your pov is supported by facts, reason, and evidence, then yes, it's denied by close-minded people, much like how evolution is denied by creationists and a round earth is denied by flat earth supporters. And then there are the people that deny we ever went to the moon. >.>

You can't deny that starlites post is full of hypocrisy. That's what I'm getting at. 

"And I will take jabs at people who cannot see beyond the literal interpretation because I have no use for people who lack open mindedness and a willingness to see things from a different perspective."

"Not believing in IT is stupid. There is evidence throughout the entire game which only a slow minded, close minded individual or one who is not paying attention could miss. I will not defend people who ignore all the evidence because they are IDIOTS!" 

If that isn't hypocrisy in your eyes, then what the hell is? 

You say that literalists are like creationists? hah:lol:

As I said to Megumi, you can think and say what you like. Apparently, we will not agree.

[BatmanTurian]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
To be fair, some of the people are, and if they've been exposed to IT and already rejected it as possible, then they aren't open-minded. That's accurate.

So what? It's still hypocrisy claiming two opposing things in the same few sentences. Saying that you hate all close-minded idiots while at the same time saying that everyone who doesn't believe your POV is hypocrisy. Also, it's not as if ITers themselves are god's gift to the world. Many of them used to (and some still do) act as if the IT is the one and only truth, Fingertrip included.

When your pov is supported by facts, reason, and evidence, then yes, it's denied by close-minded people, much like how evolution is denied by creationists and a round earth is denied by flat earth supporters. And then there are the people that deny we ever went to the moon. >.>

Problem is here the facts are from a media with more then one mistakes and rewrites. Also it's still because we, at least me, most don't, look at things which look solid and try if I can find errors. Most IT people, you including, usually throw things not fitting your POV out before looking, and no I wont search the threads for examples. And now starlitegirlx ignores everything not fitting his/her POV.

I don't throw out anything. I only consider it less likely. Do not pretend to know what I think.

[estebanus]

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
To be fair, some of the people are, and if they've been exposed to IT and already rejected it as possible, then they aren't open-minded. That's accurate.

So what? It's still hypocrisy claiming two opposing things in the same few sentences. Saying that you hate all close-minded idiots while at the same time saying that everyone who doesn't believe your POV is hypocrisy. Also, it's not as if ITers themselves are god's gift to the world. Many of them used to (and some still do) act as if the IT is the one and only truth, Fingertrip included.

When your pov is supported by facts, reason, and evidence, then yes, it's denied by close-minded people, much like how evolution is denied by creationists and a round earth is denied by flat earth supporters. And then there are the people that deny we ever went to the moon. >.>

You can't deny that starlites post is full of hypocrisy. That's what I'm getting at. 

"And I will take jabs at people who cannot see beyond the literal interpretation because I have no use for people who lack open mindedness and a willingness to see things from a different perspective."

"Not believing in IT is stupid. There is evidence throughout the entire game which only a slow minded, close minded individual or one who is not paying attention could miss. I will not defend people who ignore all the evidence because they are IDIOTS!" 

If that isn't hypocrisy in your eyes, then what the hell is? 

You say that literalists are like creationists? hah:lol:

As I said to Megumi, you can think and say what you like. Apparently, we will not agree.

You know, thare was a time when literalists insulted ITers as being like creationists, when the ITers would present their arguments in a respectful manner. Apparently, that role has now reversed.

[BatmanTurian]

It's been "fun" throwing passive-agressive statements at one another, but I have errands to run.

[Dwailing]

BatmanTurian wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
To be fair, some of the people are, and if they've been exposed to IT and already rejected it as possible, then they aren't open-minded. That's accurate.

So what? It's still hypocrisy claiming two opposing things in the same few sentences. Saying that you hate all close-minded idiots while at the same time saying that everyone who doesn't believe your POV is hypocrisy. Also, it's not as if ITers themselves are god's gift to the world. Many of them used to (and some still do) act as if the IT is the one and only truth, Fingertrip included.

When your pov is supported by facts, reason, and evidence, then yes, it's denied by close-minded people, much like how evolution is denied by creationists and a round earth is denied by flat earth supporters. And then there are the people that deny we ever went to the moon. >.>

Problem is here the facts are from a media with more then one mistakes and rewrites. Also it's still because we, at least me, most don't, look at things which look solid and try if I can find errors. Most IT people, you including, usually throw things not fitting your POV out before looking, and no I wont search the threads for examples. And now starlitegirlx ignores everything not fitting his/her POV.

I don't throw out anything. I only consider it less likely. Do not pretend to know what I think.

OK, take it easy everyone.  We don't need to start a war in the last bastion of reason on the BSN.  Now, I agree somewhat with both sides.  To say that IT is impossible is rather close-minded.  However, just because someone says IT is impossible does not mean he should be hated.