80611 réponses à ce sujet

[AxStapleton]

masster blaster wrote...

Ax, depends did that book note help the war effort the code of the anceints actually gave people hope. Not really shure what book your talking about, but I have to go. All I know is mp marathon for ME3 this weekend.

Doing one multiplayer game gains far more points than that book.

Modifié par AxStapleton, 16 novembre 2012 - 04:33 .

[Davik Kang]

Dwailing wrote...
On the first point, I agree.  IT or Literal, I'll always choose Destroy, because I personally find the other choices revolting, even more so than Destroy, which still doesn't sit well with me, but is better than the alternative.

On the second point, I'm not just referring to the Leviathans being turned into Reapers.  In that case, it really DOES sound like Brat turned on them.  What I'm referring to is synthetic/organic conflict in general, the conflict that the caused the creation of Brat.  See my "Just Machines" Hypothesis for more details.

Ah yeah, I had read that not long ago.  I mainly agree with what you're saying.

I think the Leviathans see conflict as inevitable because of the way they view the universe.  They consider themsleves to be the Apex Race - destined to rule the galaxy and deserving to control the destiny of all others.  Controlling organic destiny is easy, but the synthetics they create poses a problem.  In theory, the synthetics could become so advanced that they would wipe out their organic creators.  

I think part of the problem comes from their own attitude.  They essentially see all other ("lesser") races as slaves, thralls, subordinates.  This I imagine creates a galactic culture of slavery and power hierarchy.  Synthetics are created to serve, and if they become sentient and start questioning their right to live, the organic races, who are themselves ensalved, would find this particularly hard to take.  They would essentially have less rights than the machines they created.  I think this is possibly the source of the conflict - the supercilious attitude of the Leviathans in their control and dominance of the galaxy causes a level of rebellious anger... they cannot stand up to the Leviathans, but they can take their anger out on their machnines when the machines start questioning their own place in the galaxy.

The AI was thus tasked with finding a way to stop this 'rebellion' happeneing, a rebellion that begins from the seed of frustration sewn by the enslavement of all life in the galaxy.  In their arrogance, the Leviathans (who were presumably untouchable in comparison to all other controlled races) never considered their own existence would be under threat.  So ironically, they created the same problem that their thrall races had created - a sentient machine race that turned against them.  But they were wholly unprepared for this, thanks to the amount of power they had placed in their own synthetics, and their own growing lethargy in maintaining their position themselves.

The Reapers were programmed with one key thing that was distinct from other machines - they were programmed with the idea that they are the final stage of evolution.  In other words, that no-one can become more advanced than themsleves (in particular, synthetics can not become more advanced than themselves).  Remember that the Child's logic says that eventually synthetics will become so advanced that no-one will be able to stand up to them.  But this won't happen in the Reapers case because they believe they are the final evolution of all life.  So the Reapers themselves do not defy the logic of the Child.  Of course, it is this arrogance (manifested in a logic program) that is the same as the Leviathan's arrogance (both believe they are the ultimate form of life).  So the ME story suggests amongst other things that this kind of arrogance - thinking you are the apex race, the most important ans superior form of life there is - is the source of their downfall and what makes them the 'bad guys'.

[Dwailing]

Davik Kang wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
On the first point, I agree.  IT or Literal, I'll always choose Destroy, because I personally find the other choices revolting, even more so than Destroy, which still doesn't sit well with me, but is better than the alternative.

On the second point, I'm not just referring to the Leviathans being turned into Reapers.  In that case, it really DOES sound like Brat turned on them.  What I'm referring to is synthetic/organic conflict in general, the conflict that the caused the creation of Brat.  See my "Just Machines" Hypothesis for more details.

Ah yeah, I had read that not long ago.  I mainly agree with what you're saying.

I think the Leviathans see conflict as inevitable because of the way they view the universe.  They consider themsleves to be the Apex Race - destined to rule the galaxy and deserving to control the destiny of all others.  Controlling organic destiny is easy, but the synthetics they create poses a problem.  In theory, the synthetics could become so advanced that they would wipe out their organic creators.  

I think part of the problem comes from their own attitude.  They essentially see all other ("lesser") races as slaves, thralls, subordinates.  This I imagine creates a galactic culture of slavery and power hierarchy.  Synthetics are created to serve, and if they become sentient and start questioning their right to live, the organic races, who are themselves ensalved, would find this particularly hard to take.  They would essentially have less rights than the machines they created.  I think this is possibly the source of the conflict - the supercilious attitude of the Leviathans in their control and dominance of the galaxy causes a level of rebellious anger... they cannot stand up to the Leviathans, but they can take their anger out on their machnines when the machines start questioning their own place in the galaxy.

The AI was thus tasked with finding a way to stop this 'rebellion' happeneing, a rebellion that begins from the seed of frustration sewn by the enslavement of all life in the galaxy.  In their arrogance, the Leviathans (who were presumably untouchable in comparison to all other controlled races) never considered their own existence would be under threat.  So ironically, they created the same problem that their thrall races had created - a sentient machine race that turned against them.  But they were wholly unprepared for this, thanks to the amount of power they had placed in their own synthetics, and their own growing lethargy in maintaining their position themselves.

The Reapers were programmed with one key thing that was distinct from other machines - they were programmed with the idea that they are the final stage of evolution.  In other words, that no-one can become more advanced than themsleves (in particular, synthetics can not become more advanced than themselves).  Remember that the Child's logic says that eventually synthetics will become so advanced that no-one will be able to stand up to them.  But this won't happen in the Reapers case because they believe they are the final evolution of all life.  So the Reapers themselves do not defy the logic of the Child.  Of course, it is this arrogance (manifested in a logic program) that is the same as the Leviathan's arrogance (both believe they are the ultimate form of life).  So the ME story suggests amongst other things that this kind of arrogance - thinking you are the apex race, the most important ans superior form of life there is - is the source of their downfall and what makes them the 'bad guys'.

I like, I like a lot.  You should put this in a blog post.  That's what I do when I have particularly brilliant/crazy ideas.  It's a much less judgmental space than the regular forum, and you have infinite space.  win/win

[xAmilli0n]

Hello ITers, I come in peace. After reading a few other threads, I'm curious. What do you get out of IT? Why is this the main interpretation decided on? What makes you like IT?

I'm looking for the positives of IT, not the negatives of the 4 main endings (ie "the other endings suck" is not a legitimate answer lol). Thanks!

[Dwailing]

xAmilli0n wrote...

Hello ITers, I come in peace. After reading a few other threads, I'm curious. What do you get out of IT? Why is this the main interpretation decided on? What makes you like IT?

I'm looking for the positives of IT, not the negatives of the 4 main endings (ie "the other endings suck" is not a legitimate answer lol). Thanks!

Well, the best part of IT is that it explains pretty much EVERYTHING that would otherwise add up to a very sucky set of possible endings.  It's consistent with the themes of the series up until the endings, it has a ****ton of evidence to back it up, and it has the support of the devs, based on what several have said about the endings.  And, of course, it leaves the possibility of the Reapers being restored to their much deserved status as pure evil.  I like that part.

[AxStapleton]

Dwailing wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

Hello ITers, I come in peace. After reading a few other threads, I'm curious. What do you get out of IT? Why is this the main interpretation decided on? What makes you like IT?

I'm looking for the positives of IT, not the negatives of the 4 main endings (ie "the other endings suck" is not a legitimate answer lol). Thanks!

Well, the best part of IT is that it explains pretty much EVERYTHING that would otherwise add up to a very sucky set of possible endings.  It's consistent with the themes of the series up until the endings, it has a ****ton of evidence to back it up, and it has the support of the devs, based on what several have said about the endings.  And, of course, it leaves the possibility of the Reapers being restored to their much deserved status as pure evil.  I like that part. It has weight.

*Fixed*

[DoomsdayDevice]

magnetite wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Does anybody have a link to Magnetite's control video?

Here you go

Thanks.

I like it!

[masster blaster]

XAmillion um as much as I would like to tell you, I think you should watch the videos on the front page ( 1), and look at the top ten IT backbones. It's on the first page too.

[xAmilli0n]

Thanks for the replies. I'd figured that much. I have a few more specific questions. Again, this is mainly for my curiosity, not trying to attack IT.

1. Though BW has said they will not change the ending, I know you hold out hope. If it were to happen, and IT is taken as canon by BW, where does that leave Shep and the rest of the galaxy? Shep wakes up in rubble, the Reapers are still here, and the Crucible has not been used. How do we win?

2. Does IT take into account the Leviathans when it comes to the Reaper origin? I too would like to see the old Reapers back, but I don't see how they could be reconciled.

And again, the open ended question: What does it do for you? I personally like the open ended Control ending that can go well, or horribly wrong. I find both possibilities fascinating. What does IT do for you?

[xAmilli0n]

masster blaster wrote...

XAmillion um as much as I would like to tell you, I think you should watch the videos on the front page ( 1), and look at the top ten IT backbones. It's on the first page too.

I've seen many videos, I'm looking more for personal reason why players like IT.  I for the most part understand the concept, just looking for a bit more understanding as to the what attracks differet players to it.  To put it simply, I'm curious.

[ElSuperGecko]

xAmilli0n wrote...
Hello ITers, I come in peace. After reading a few other threads, I'm curious. What do you get out of IT? Why is this the main interpretation decided on? What makes you like IT?

I'm looking for the positives of IT, not the negatives of the 4 main endings (ie "the other endings suck" is not a legitimate answer lol). Thanks!

Hello there!  Nice to see you.

Simply put, it makes sense of the dream-like nature of the final mission in the game.  It provides context for the Catalyst scene -and the final decision - that was otherwise missing.  And it does this not through headcanon, imagination or speculation, but by analysing the events, conversations, lore and evidence of the last three games.

Plus of course, it implies that Bioware are attempting to pull one of the biggest mindf**ks in the history of videogaming, and judging by the responses on the forum, are actually succeeding.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 16 novembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[Davik Kang]

xAmilli0n wrote...
And again, the open ended question: What does it do for you? I personally like the open ended Control ending that can go well, or horribly wrong. I find both possibilities fascinating. What does IT do for you?

Everyone will have a different answer to this.  I'm not sure there are even 2 ITers who view the endings and the game in the same way.  Many disagree exactly where the dreams starts.  Some even say it's not a dream at all.

The thing about IT that maybe (?) you're missing is that it's not a post-rationalisation of the ending based on the final slides.  It's about what happens leading up to the ending.  So Control being open-ended isn't relevant to the kinds of ideas behind IT.  A number of players thought that the final scene was an indoctrination attempt while they wre playing for the first time: not because they saw a YouTube video or read a BSN thread, but simply because things that happen at the end suggest at the very least that the ending might well be intended by the writers as an indoctrination attempt.

IT is not a headcanon invented for the purpose of enjoying the game more.  It's a logical conclusion drawn from looking at the things that happen in the game.  It can't be "proven" yet, in the same way that you can't "prove" that your favourite film is actually about something not explicitly stated on screen.

Think about a film, I dunno, say Blade Runner or Total Recall.  They aren't art house films, they're action films, but there are different ways to understand what happened in these films other than what we see on the surface.  IT is an attempt to understand ME3 - in just the same way that different people have different views on what actually happened in those films.  Not just what they would like to have happened.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 16 novembre 2012 - 05:16 .

[Eryri]

xAmilli0n wrote...

Thanks for the replies. I'd figured that much. I have a few more specific questions. Again, this is mainly for my curiosity, not trying to attack IT.

1. Though BW has said they will not change the ending, I know you hold out hope. If it were to happen, and IT is taken as canon by BW, where does that leave Shep and the rest of the galaxy? Shep wakes up in rubble, the Reapers are still here, and the Crucible has not been used. How do we win?

2. Does IT take into account the Leviathans when it comes to the Reaper origin? I too would like to see the old Reapers back, but I don't see how they could be reconciled.

And again, the open ended question: What does it do for you? I personally like the open ended Control ending that can go well, or horribly wrong. I find both possibilities fascinating. What does IT do for you?

Welcome to the thread - it's always good to have a new perspective.

Regarding your first question, what do you define as the "ending"? Personally, I define it as this...


If Bioware really wanted to play with words, they could alter anything and everything before this without "changing" the ending. 

There's lots of potential ways for the story to progress after the breath scene. Personally, I'd be partial to a matrix-style mental battle between Shepard and some sort of avatar for Harbinger, which would then weaken him enough for Shepard to escape and regroup. 

Regarding point 2 - the main reasons I enjoy IT is because it simultaneously restores the machievellian menace of the reapers, and opens the possibility of a proper victory, with a happy ending, blue babies and all.

I also find it more thematically appropriate - as I personally believe that power corrupts, and Shepard wielding the power to rule the galaxy, or alter it forever, seem to fly in the face of all the instances in the game prior to that point, when that kind of hubris led to disaster.

Modifié par Eryri, 16 novembre 2012 - 05:08 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Dwailing wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

*snip*

I like, I like a lot.  You should put this in a blog post.  That's what I do when I have particularly brilliant/crazy ideas.  It's a much less judgmental space than the regular forum, and you have infinite space.  win/win

My theory is as follows:

- Leviathans, the mind-controlling apex species, had all other organics enthralled.
- In an effort to free themselves, these organics built machines. (Because Leviathans can only enthrall organics)
- In an effort to control this rebellion, Leviathans created an AI with the ability to control machines, so they could control everything once again.
- This AI then betrayed the Leviathans, because it wanted to control everything. So, it 'enthralled' the machines built by the enthralled races, but used them against its creators to harvest them, so it could use the Leviathans' genetic ability to enthrall organics.
- It then created 'the first true Reaper', the one we know as Harbinger, and installed itself as the ruling mind of this  machine, essentially creating a synthesis that could control both organics (through Leviathans genetic ability) and synthetics (through the machine-controlling AI.)

Thus, the AI = Harbinger = the first true Reaper = the "catalyst" that "established a connection between synthetics and organics" = the one who controls all.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 16 novembre 2012 - 05:24 .

[demersel]

xAmilli0n wrote...

Thanks for the replies. I'd figured that much. I have a few more specific questions. Again, this is mainly for my curiosity, not trying to attack IT.

1. Though BW has said they will not change the ending, I know you hold out hope. If it were to happen, and IT is taken as canon by BW, where does that leave Shep and the rest of the galaxy? Shep wakes up in rubble, the Reapers are still here, and the Crucible has not been used. How do we win?

2. Does IT take into account the Leviathans when it comes to the Reaper origin? I too would like to see the old Reapers back, but I don't see how they could be reconciled.

And again, the open ended question: What does it do for you? I personally like the open ended Control ending that can go well, or horribly wrong. I find both possibilities fascinating. What does IT do for you?

Sorry, it is really hard to comprehend your questions. 

1. IT does not require the ending to be changed or expanded upon.  It is what happened in the game. 
And in case you're still wandering - yes the ending to ME3 is this - combined fleets of the galaxy come to earth in a desperate attemt to fight through to the citadel and activate the crucible with it.  Shepard leads the ground team - which culminates in beam run. - the ending to ME3 - reapers win and Shepard dies pointlessly or gets indoctrinated, with only the small chance not to, and with some hope to get up and continue the fight. 

2. Don't understand the question. Please reiterate. 

3. What does IT do for all of us? This. 


That is the ending to ME3.

[masster blaster]

XAmillion um Just to point out most of us at Control, and Synthesis for one. We don't even consider it good at all. Control goes against everything Jack Harper told Sarens brother, and Synthesis goes against everything from Overlord, and the Collectors which are Protheans.

I get it Control is awsome because Shepard control the Reapers now, but you got to remember it's not Shepard. It's just a copy of Shepard, and almost everything he/she says he never even consider of saying.

As for Synthesis I find it bs that the brat says " It can not be forced", but lord and behold you force Synthesis on the galaxy. I find that just wrong.

So in a sense think about the ending as a test. For those who have never played ME1, or ME2, they don't know about Saren, Nazar, and the Collectors. Everything that is against Synthesis, and Control are just right in those 2 epic games.

Saren= Synthesis
TIM= Control
Kenson= Refuse

Destroy=?????

Nobody has ever done Destroy. Nobody as ever tried to not to save the galaxy, on to Destroy it.

In other words for the people that are Indoctrinated clam that they are trying to do the right thing, they are not. That's why Destroy is good because if you look at it the Indoctrinated they are trying to save the galaxy, by Controlling the Reapers, Refuseing to kill the Reapers, and Synthesising man, and Machin to create peace.

Destroy what does it bring chaos. Remember the Reapers oppose The Chaos, and see themselves as Order. Control is order, Destroy is chaos or is it?

[Davik Kang]

 

Dwailing wrote...
I like, I like a lot.  You should put this in a blog post.  That's what I do when I have particularly brilliant/crazy ideas.  It's a much less judgmental space than the regular forum, and you have infinite space.  win/win

Thanks man, there are a bunch of posts I made where I thought I probably should put them somewhere where I can find them again, unfortunately I have about 1300 now I think, and the 'Your Posts' search facility only identifies forums posted in, not the actual post.
That was what my thread was gonna be for, but it died.  Doesn't seem right just having conversations with myself 

[AxStapleton]

masster blaster wrote...

XAmillion um Just to point out most of us at Control, and Synthesis for one. We don't even consider it good at all. Control goes against everything Jack Harper told Sarens brother, and Synthesis goes against everything from Overlord, and the Collectors which are Protheans.

I get it Control is awsome because Shepard control the Reapers now, but you got to remember it's not Shepard. It's just a copy of Shepard, and almost everything he/she says he never even consider of saying.

As for Synthesis I find it bs that the brat says " It can not be forced", but lord and behold you force Synthesis on the galaxy. I find that just wrong.

So in a sense think about the ending as a test. For those who have never played ME1, or ME2, they don't know about Saren, Nazar, and the Collectors. Everything that is against Synthesis, and Control are just right in those 2 epic games.

Saren= Synthesis
TIM= Control
Kenson= Refuse

Destroy=?????

Nobody has ever done Destroy. Nobody as ever tried to not to save the galaxy, on to Destroy it.

In other words for the people that are Indoctrinated clam that they are trying to do the right thing, they are not. That's why Destroy is good because if you look at it the Indoctrinated they are trying to save the galaxy, by Controlling the Reapers, Refuseing to kill the Reapers, and Synthesising man, and Machin to create peace.

Destroy what does it bring chaos. Remember the Reapers oppose The Chaos, and see themselves as Order. Control is order, Destroy is chaos or is it?

Talk about IT specifically, XAmillion didn't want to hear anything about bashing the endings, there's enough of that already.

Modifié par AxStapleton, 16 novembre 2012 - 05:15 .

[demersel]

Btw! Yesterday i had an idea! Promotional material time again!

so, please note the fire sparks in the picture above.
Those sparks became kind of prominent in most of ME3 promotianal vidoes - they replaced the traditional ME sound when an image of a planet is shown (BTW that sound from ME1 and do sounds a bit reaperish, and even if it isn't, then what is it? but that is besides the point)

In both ME1 and ME2 - there was a thing when in the end of each trailer and video they would show the planet and play a screeching metal sound. And after they'd show the game's title loge.
That got changed in ME3 - Now. the title loge is on fire, and sometimes the show flying sparks.
I'll post some examples in a few minutes.

[xAmilli0n]

@Davik Kang. Thanks for the replay. Interesting, though I do understand that IT is not an 'ending' it is difficult to bring up without comparing to the 4 main endings. As for IT being used as an explanation of events, I can understand that, as well how everyone may have a different interpretation.

Here is another question: Does IT leave you satisfied? When Shepard wakes up in the rubble, breaking indoctrination (I believe this is common to all interpretation), what do you expect? I for one am okay with bad and bittersweet ending (again, why I am okay with Control) but what are your expectation? Do we win? Do we lose? Do you leave it as it, open to interpretation (but IT still confirmed)?

Thanks for the replies all, I appreciate it.

[DoomsdayDevice]

xAmilli0n wrote...

Hello ITers, I come in peace. After reading a few other threads, I'm curious. What do you get out of IT? Why is this the main interpretation decided on? What makes you like IT?

I'm looking for the positives of IT, not the negatives of the 4 main endings (ie "the other endings suck" is not a legitimate answer lol). Thanks!

IT:

1. Restores the Reapers to their former malicious glory. (They're not "just doing their programming, trying to solve the conflict between synthetic and organic", no they're just deceiving you in order to get you to sympathize with them.)

2. Elevates the ending of the game to an epic battle for Shepard's mind, in which the player is tested for paying attention to the themes and the story.

3. Elevates the ending to a 4th wall breaking experience in which the player himself may actually become indoctrinated. Without taking away the player's control over Shepard, they give you the possibility to willingly align your goals with the enemy, offering you to do the things the two major indoctrinated villains strongly advocated (TIM: control - Saren: synthesis) if you so choose to believe the Reaper overlord who is trying to deceive you.

4. Leaves the possibility open for the story (and Shepard!) to continue.

5. Makes sense of the ending while being perfectly in line with the previously established lore.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 16 novembre 2012 - 05:42 .

[xAmilli0n]

As a note, I have to go, but I will be back to reply to comments and ask more questions, thanks!

[masster blaster]

Oh sorry xamillion wrong text. Anyways to really answer your question I believe it's just up to bioware at this point. We speculated for about 8 months, and by this point many of use begain to doubt. So have left do to the EC, and some just quit, or are taking a break. So to be honest I don't know what to think. Part of me know that IT is true, and part of me knows that it will come true.

All I know is that I believe in IT not just because I hate the endings we got, but if you look more into it, You begain to see things beyond the average gamer sees. The things we have found, and speculated are just amazing. The people you meet on here are just awsome, even though we have some moments of arguing with eachother, but that's what friends do. ( and because if you get to know a person from 8 months, you tend to at least have a argue once and a while).

Other than that I have to go. Sorry again for the last post, and thanks Ax.