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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#47451
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 01:12

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Davik Kang wrote...

I like how David Lynch can make ostensibly simple things deeply unsettling and uncomfortable. He can bring out a kind of terror in the viewer (in me anyway) but not in a horror-movie kind of way. There's definitely a morbid, death-fear kind of thing going on, but it's something unique, something different, When I was young stuff like Twin Peaks genuinely freaked me out, but it still drew me in to watch more, I and I haven't seen anything comparable in making me feel like that.

It is interesting how the Lynch fans like ME as well, though I did think they toned down the unsettling elements a lot compared to Lynch. But maybe it's something to do with... sort of being comfortable with being made to feel uncomfortable... or something


I'm with you there. The 100% anti-ITers I know in person, are people who just do NOT enjoy the thought of being genuinely unsettled by something. They either just want to be 'the winner' (even just in ideas), or 'everyone is ok'.

The core feeling of IT is that not all is what it seems, and everyone may be far more screwed than the story first seems to show us. It's full of 'triggers' that will set off people, one way or the other.

#47452
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 01:21

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Davik Kang wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
On the first point, I agree.  IT or Literal, I'll always choose Destroy, because I personally find the other choices revolting, even more so than Destroy, which still doesn't sit well with me, but is better than the alternative.

On the second point, I'm not just referring to the Leviathans being turned into Reapers.  In that case, it really DOES sound like Brat turned on them.  What I'm referring to is synthetic/organic conflict in general, the conflict that the caused the creation of Brat.  See my "Just Machines" Hypothesis for more details.

Ah yeah, I had read that not long ago.  I mainly agree with what you're saying.

I think the Leviathans see conflict as inevitable because of the way they view the universe.  They consider themsleves to be the Apex Race - destined to rule the galaxy and deserving to control the destiny of all others.  Controlling organic destiny is easy, but the synthetics they create poses a problem.  In theory, the synthetics could become so advanced that they would wipe out their organic creators.  

I think part of the problem comes from their own attitude.  They essentially see all other ("lesser") races as slaves, thralls, subordinates.  This I imagine creates a galactic culture of slavery and power hierarchy.  Synthetics are created to serve, and if they become sentient and start questioning their right to live, the organic races, who are themselves ensalved, would find this particularly hard to take.  They would essentially have less rights than the machines they created.  I think this is possibly the source of the conflict - the supercilious attitude of the Leviathans in their control and dominance of the galaxy causes a level of rebellious anger... they cannot stand up to the Leviathans, but they can take their anger out on their machnines when the machines start questioning their own place in the galaxy.

The AI was thus tasked with finding a way to stop this 'rebellion' happeneing, a rebellion that begins from the seed of frustration sewn by the enslavement of all life in the galaxy.  In their arrogance, the Leviathans (who were presumably untouchable in comparison to all other controlled races) never considered their own existence would be under threat.  So ironically, they created the same problem that their thrall races had created - a sentient machine race that turned against them.  But they were wholly unprepared for this, thanks to the amount of power they had placed in their own synthetics, and their own growing lethargy in maintaining their position themselves.

The Reapers were programmed with one key thing that was distinct from other machines - they were programmed with the idea that they are the final stage of evolution.  In other words, that no-one can become more advanced than themsleves (in particular, synthetics can not become more advanced than themselves).  Remember that the Child's logic says that eventually synthetics will become so advanced that no-one will be able to stand up to them.  But this won't happen in the Reapers case because they believe they are the final evolution of all life.  So the Reapers themselves do not defy the logic of the Child.  Of course, it is this arrogance (manifested in a logic program) that is the same as the Leviathan's arrogance (both believe they are the ultimate form of life).  So the ME story suggests amongst other things that this kind of arrogance - thinking you are the apex race, the most important ans superior form of life there is - is the source of their downfall and what makes them the 'bad guys'.


Exactly! It is ALL about:
-faulty organics
-faulty synthetics
-faulty synthesis between the two

Yet it doesn't have to be this way, and we don't need the Crucible in order to 'establish connection' or whatever nonsense.

Organics need to stop dominating, and start inspiring. We've seen this is possible.
Synthetics need to operate on even ground with the rest of the galaxy, as we see the geth and especially EDI do (as considering herself part of the crew, and both protective of and welcomed by them).

The Reaper problem is a many millenia old monstrocity, and the ending is this monstrocity trying to convince you "I'm really a good boy!".

#47453
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 01:28

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

Hello ITers, I come in peace. After reading a few other threads, I'm curious. What do you get out of IT? Why is this the main interpretation decided on? What makes you like IT?

I'm looking for the positives of IT, not the negatives of the 4 main endings (ie "the other endings suck" is not a legitimate answer lol). Thanks!


IT:

1. Restores the Reapers to their former malicious glory. (They're not "just doing their programming, trying to solve the conflict between synthetic and organic", no they're just deceiving you in order to get you to sympathize with them.)

2. Elevates the ending of the game to an epic battle for Shepard's mind, in which the player is tested for paying attention to the themes and the story.

3. Elevates the ending to a 4th wall breaking experience in which the player himself may actually become indoctrinated. Without taking away the player's control over Shepard, they give you the possibility to willingly align your goals with the enemy, offering you to do the things the two major indoctrinated villains strongly advocated (TIM: control - Saren: synthesis) if you so choose to believe the Reaper overlord who is trying to deceive you.

4. Leaves the possibility open for the story (and Shepard!) to continue.

5. Makes sense of the ending while being perfectly in line with the previously established lore.


A more idealist Paragon (hi, I'm one) may have to pay more attention to the story..

But a 'die Reapers die' already has the answer. Muahahaah.

#47454
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 01:33

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

I agree with DD, principally because a vote for ME3 is really a vote for the whole trilogy. Similar to what DD says, I think the ending is a milestone in videgaming history. It is a truly brilliant way to tie the whole series together, using the 'choice' mechanic as a final boss, simultaneously playing mind games with the audience, and giving them a chance to express themselves in terms of what they've learned in the series and what they consider the key values of the story, Shepard and themselves to be.

The ending makes the whole trilogy a deeply personal journey for each player. Imo it is a genuinely incredible achievement, and retrospectively makes the ME trilogy one of the most important achievements in gaming so far. I am 100% convinced that ME3 should win GOTY for that reason. I just hope those deciding at least see this argument, even if ultimately they don't agree with it.


I disagree, on pretty much all of it. This is only true if IT is true. And while very likely, it doesn't count without a true reveal. What we have right now is an ending so ****ty that news agencies like BBC and CNN considered the outrage news worthy.

As it's becoming increasingly obvious that we'll still be fighting the Reapers in ME4 and they told us half a decade ago that this was going to be a trilogy... well, I can't see how this is anything but milking the cash cow. I wonder when we're going to see the real end of this story. I have a bad feeling it won't be for quite a few games. If ever.


The Protheans fought for centuries. I didn't expect the Reapers to go down easy when I heard Javik say that even if this cycle's situation is different.


I'm actually cool with that.

I see Shepard as more as the CATALYST (:OB):P) that enables this cycle to stand up on its own feet and work together to defeat the Reapers. Not conventionally... NOW (as in currently).... but in a grand war OR a co-operative venture to find something new (you know, innovation, moving outside of the tech lines the Reapers set out for organics) to stop them.

I think the co-op multiplayer is its own foreshadowing of that.

#47455
paxxton
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 01:38

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Swoby, it looks like you are the only one supporting this thread atm. Keep it afloat on the first page.

Modifié par paxxton, 17 novembre 2012 - 01:38 .

#47456
ThisOneIsPunny
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 01:55

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There is a term for the kind of arrogance that the Leviathans, the Catalyst, and the Reapers display. Hubris. The literal downfall of the Leviathans, and the soon to be downfall of the Reapers/Catalyst.

#47457
401 Kill
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 01:56

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paxxton wrote...

Swoby, it looks like you are the only one supporting this thread atm. Keep it afloat on the first page.



If that's the case, I could ask a question.

Wasn't it alluded in one of the comics that Omega was built by the Reapers?

#47458
paxxton
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 01:58

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401 Kill wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Swoby, it looks like you are the only one supporting this thread atm. Keep it afloat on the first page.



If that's the case, I could ask a question.

Wasn't it alluded in one of the comics that Omega was built by the Reapers?

I heard that too. IIRC it's mentioned in Retribution (book 3).

Modifié par paxxton, 17 novembre 2012 - 01:59 .

#47459
401 Kill
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 01:59

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ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

There is a term for the kind of arrogance that the Leviathans, the Catalyst, and the Reapers display. Hubris. The literal downfall of the Leviathans, and the soon to be downfall of the Reapers/Catalyst.

Exactly, the Leviathans think that they were successful, even though the Reapers basically decimated them to a point of hiding for eons. The Reapers think that nobody can touch them, even though their precious plan has been disrupted and delayed by Shepard.

#47460
401 Kill
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 02:03

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paxxton wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Swoby, it looks like you are the only one supporting this thread atm. Keep it afloat on the first page.



If that's the case, I could ask a question.

Wasn't it alluded in one of the comics that Omega was built by the Reapers?

I heard that too. IIRC it's mentioned in Retribution (book 3).

Nice.

Its just another trap for organics, they will settle there on the station, and when the Reapers are ready, the Collectors would rush in. When the Collectors were eliminated, Cerberus stepped in- which isn't any better.

#47461
ThisOneIsPunny
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 02:10

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401 Kill wrote...

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

There is a term for the kind of arrogance that the Leviathans, the Catalyst, and the Reapers display. Hubris. The literal downfall of the Leviathans, and the soon to be downfall of the Reapers/Catalyst.

Exactly, the Leviathans think that they were successful, even though the Reapers basically decimated them to a point of hiding for eons. The Reapers think that nobody can touch them, even though their precious plan has been disrupted and delayed by Shepard.

"There was no mistake."
That line is said as ridiculously as it sounds after the amount of exposition My Little Progeny gives Shepard.

#47462
BleedingUranium
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 02:21

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demersel wrote...

About "Your memories give us voice" - there was this movie Existenze! - there was a concept when memories and motives of different persons involved in a collective illusion subconciously bleed into it in and are persistent. that may suggest that illusion is made out of all participants's memories and intents, and not just Shepard's - Harbanger's true motives, and thoughts might also be there, including those, that he wouldn't want to reveal. - like all relays blowing up, and galaxy separeted and isolated.
Same thing was in harry potter books - when somebody tries to take control of your mind and read your thoughts - if you resist enough you could actually get inside of that persons mind yourself - the channel works both ways.


This was from a few pages back, and I want to bring it up again because it's a really cool idea Posted Image

#47463
BleedingUranium
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 02:38

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Let's put some puzzle pieces together:

-The leaked script had the Reapers at one point say "We are all Shepards".

-The Reapers failed to make a Prothean Reaper.

-The Reapers failed to capture Javik.


On a seperate topic:

-Shepard is the catalyst for galactic unity, and more solving most of the problems throughout the trilogy, from random civilians with little problems, to peacefully ending the Geth/Quarian conflict.

-The Crucible is a Reaper designed trap. This is nearly as obvious as IT.

-The Crucible needs a "Catalyst", quite possibly a very special person, to "activate" it.


What can we gather from this? Reapers are made out of many minds, but only one consciousness. Put another way, their mind is made from the organic material of millions of billions of organics, while that mind's consciousness comes from one individual.

Every cycle the Reapers find the best individual that cycle has to offer, and slowly indoctrinate this person into agreeing with them, for the purpose of making their mind into that cycle's Reaper. First it was Saren, the best of the Spectres, the best in the galaxy. The best, that is, until he was beaten by Shepard, proving Shepard was better. The Reapers don't settle for any less than the best, and the loss of Saren was unimportant as it gave them someone better to go after.

Javik was the Shepard of his cycle, we know this. Because he was not captured the Reapers were unable to complete the Prothean Reaper, as it lacked a consciousness.

Harbinger doesn't want to indoctrinate Shepard to strike a moral blow to the galaxy (as effective as it would be). He's testing Shepard to see if he's ready to become our cycle's Reaper.

#47464
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Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 02:45

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SwobyJ wrote...
I'm with you there. The 100% anti-ITers I know in person, are people who just do NOT enjoy the thought of being genuinely unsettled by something. They either just want to be 'the winner' (even just in ideas), or 'everyone is ok'.


Garrus said something about humans always want to save everyone. In this war, that's not going to happen. I'll have to find the quote, but it was pretty similar.

#47465
Nykara
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 03:25

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401 Kill wrote...

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

There is a term for the kind of arrogance that the Leviathans, the Catalyst, and the Reapers display. Hubris. The literal downfall of the Leviathans, and the soon to be downfall of the Reapers/Catalyst.

Exactly, the Leviathans think that they were successful, even though the Reapers basically decimated them to a point of hiding for eons. The Reapers think that nobody can touch them, even though their precious plan has been disrupted and delayed by Shepard.


Its all about just surviving the reapers though. I actually figured thats what it would come down to this cycle as well. The humans, Asari and some of the other races simply 'surviving it' so that the races will go on even if they basically have to start all over again. I actually figured it could take cycles of the humans simply managing to survive the reaper cullings to finally find a way to actually beat them for good.

Modifié par Nykara, 17 novembre 2012 - 03:25 .

#47466
DoomsdayDevice
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 04:45

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BleedingUranium wrote...

Let's put some puzzle pieces together:

-The leaked script had the Reapers at one point say "We are all Shepards".

-The Reapers failed to make a Prothean Reaper.

-The Reapers failed to capture Javik.


On a seperate topic:

-Shepard is the catalyst for galactic unity, and more solving most of the problems throughout the trilogy, from random civilians with little problems, to peacefully ending the Geth/Quarian conflict.

-The Crucible is a Reaper designed trap. This is nearly as obvious as IT.

-The Crucible needs a "Catalyst", quite possibly a very special person, to "activate" it.


What can we gather from this? Reapers are made out of many minds, but only one consciousness. Put another way, their mind is made from the organic material of millions of billions of organics, while that mind's consciousness comes from one individual.

Every cycle the Reapers find the best individual that cycle has to offer, and slowly indoctrinate this person into agreeing with them, for the purpose of making their mind into that cycle's Reaper. First it was Saren, the best of the Spectres, the best in the galaxy. The best, that is, until he was beaten by Shepard, proving Shepard was better. The Reapers don't settle for any less than the best, and the loss of Saren was unimportant as it gave them someone better to go after.

Javik was the Shepard of his cycle, we know this. Because he was not captured the Reapers were unable to complete the Prothean Reaper, as it lacked a consciousness.

Harbinger doesn't want to indoctrinate Shepard to strike a moral blow to the galaxy (as effective as it would be). He's testing Shepard to see if he's ready to become our cycle's Reaper.


Agreed, I made the same observations.

I said this earlier:
 

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

What I think about the Reapers' procreation is that they absorb the essence of a species in some kind of way. They're looking for unique genetic qualities that will give each new Reaper unique abilities.

I think the Reaper AI harvested the Leviathans because he wanted to harness their genetic ability to enthrall organics. What the power of humans/Shepard could be, I don't know... the ultimate charismatic warrior?


Shepard becoming a Reaper seems to happen in the control ending though. You see an image of Shepard walking in this white light and then the camera zooms out and the white light is coming out of a Reaper 'eye'.

It's not even a Reaper capital though, it's a Destroyer.

But what then, happens in synthesis?

Maybe you become a normal Reaper in control, but in synthesis, you become a capital Reaper, and humanity's essence will be your 'blood'.

Also: before the EC, the kid used to say: ".... or do you think you can control us?", which sounds WAY more ambiguous than it sounds now. It seemed to imply that control being successful isn't a guarantee.

It's almost like they wanted to make the indoctrination attempt less obvious here. (In EC)

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 17 novembre 2012 - 05:34 .

#47467
Dwailing
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 05:23

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You know, I think there's definitely something to this, "Shepard as a Reaper consciousness," thing. Sovvy said, "We are each a nation, independent." What does every nation have? A leader, a central figure.

#47468
BleedingUranium
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 05:25

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Agreed, I made the same observations.

I said this earlier:
 

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

What I think about the Reapers' procreation is that they absorb the essence of a species in some kind of way. They're looking for unique genetic qualities that will give each new Reaper unique abilities.

I think the Reaper AI harvested the Leviathans because he wanted to harness their genetic ability to enthrall organics. What the power of humans/Shepard could be, I don't know... the ultimate charismatic warrior?


Shepard becoming a Reaper seems to happen in the destroy ending though. You see an image of Shepard walking in this white light and then the camera zooms out and the white light is coming out of a Reaper 'eye'.

It's not even a Reaper capital though, it's a Destroyer.

But what then, happens in synthesis?

Maybe you become a normal Reaper in destroy, but in synthesis, you become a capital Reaper, and humanity's essence will be your 'blood'.

Also: before the EC, the kid used to say: ".... or do you think you can control us?", which sounds WAY more ambiguous than it sounds now. It seemed to imply that control being successful isn't a guarantee.

It's almost like they wanted to make the indoctrination attempt less obvious here. (In EC)


You mean in control, not destroy, right? Posted Image But yeah, that makes perfect sense, they want people with special traits and skills to improve themselves. It's a similar concept to Halo's Flood and Star Trek's Borg, but instead of taking everyone they only take the best.

#47469
BleedingUranium
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 05:29

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Dwailing wrote...

You know, I think there's definitely something to this, "Shepard as a Reaper consciousness," thing. Sovvy said, "We are each a nation, independent." What does every nation have? A leader, a central figure.


I think it makes IT far more interesting, as it ties in even better with the plot than them just wanting to demoralize everyone; it goes all the way back to Saren. This stops all the people asking why the Reapers would bother indoctinating Shepard instead of killing him/if they were going to win anyway.

#47470
DoomsdayDevice
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 05:35

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BleedingUranium wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Agreed, I made the same observations.

I said this earlier:
 

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

What I think about the Reapers' procreation is that they absorb the essence of a species in some kind of way. They're looking for unique genetic qualities that will give each new Reaper unique abilities.

I think the Reaper AI harvested the Leviathans because he wanted to harness their genetic ability to enthrall organics. What the power of humans/Shepard could be, I don't know... the ultimate charismatic warrior?


Shepard becoming a Reaper seems to happen in the control ending though. You see an image of Shepard walking in this white light and then the camera zooms out and the white light is coming out of a Reaper 'eye'.

It's not even a Reaper capital though, it's a Destroyer.

But what then, happens in synthesis?

Maybe you become a normal Reaper in control, but in synthesis, you become a capital Reaper, and humanity's essence will be your 'blood'.

Also: before the EC, the kid used to say: ".... or do you think you can control us?", which sounds WAY more ambiguous than it sounds now. It seemed to imply that control being successful isn't a guarantee.

It's almost like they wanted to make the indoctrination attempt less obvious here. (In EC)


You mean in control, not destroy, right? Posted Image But yeah, that makes perfect sense, they want people with special traits and skills to improve themselves. It's a similar concept to Halo's Flood and Star Trek's Borg, but instead of taking everyone they only take the best.


Yes, I meant control, of course. Don't ask me why I put 'destroy' there twice. :pinched:

#47471
Dwailing
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 05:35

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BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

You know, I think there's definitely something to this, "Shepard as a Reaper consciousness," thing. Sovvy said, "We are each a nation, independent." What does every nation have? A leader, a central figure.


I think it makes IT far more interesting, as it ties in even better with the plot than them just wanting to demoralize everyone; it goes all the way back to Saren. This stops all the people asking why the Reapers would bother indoctinating Shepard instead of killing him/if they were going to win anyway.


Presumably, Omega will have Collectors that will be controlled by Harbinger and will taunt you. That will reveal a lot. Also, I can't wait to see what piece of dialogue Omega adds to the endings. I think the Leviathan dialogue might be much more important than it seems on the surface, we just don't have full context yet. Full context will only come with the end of the DLC cycle. Or at least, with the release of yhe fabled Citadel DLC. That seems to hold promise, considering where we meet Brat.

#47472
DoomsdayDevice
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 05:38

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Also, in light of this whole 'Reaper essence' discussion:

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I still think:

- Leviathans enthralled organic races
- Organics built machines to rebel against Leviathans (who could only control organics)
- Leviathans create AI to control machines too
- AI wants to harness the power of Leviathans, so it can control both organics and synthetics
- AI uses the controlled machines to harvest Leviathans
- AI builds first true Reaper, a synthesis of Leviathan essence and machine, known as Harbinger
- AI installs himself into this first Reaper so it can control both organics and synthetics

So, Reaper AI = Harbinger = the one to "establish a connection" between synthetics and organics.


Sorry for bringing this up again. I realize it's all speculation, but it makes so much sense in my opinion.

#47473
BleedingUranium
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 05:40

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Dwailing wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

You know, I think there's definitely something to this, "Shepard as a Reaper consciousness," thing. Sovvy said, "We are each a nation, independent." What does every nation have? A leader, a central figure.


I think it makes IT far more interesting, as it ties in even better with the plot than them just wanting to demoralize everyone; it goes all the way back to Saren. This stops all the people asking why the Reapers would bother indoctinating Shepard instead of killing him/if they were going to win anyway.


Presumably, Omega will have Collectors that will be controlled by Harbinger and will taunt you. That will reveal a lot. Also, I can't wait to see what piece of dialogue Omega adds to the endings. I think the Leviathan dialogue might be much more important than it seems on the surface, we just don't have full context yet. Full context will only come with the end of the DLC cycle. Or at least, with the release of yhe fabled Citadel DLC. That seems to hold promise, considering where we meet Brat.


I think the rumours about the Citadel DLC were that it will involve the Keepers, which could prove very interesting, given that they were made by the Reapers.

Wait, I just had a thought. What if at some point during Omega, Cerberus looses control of the Adjutants? That would make it the anti-Control DLC. While the Leviathans were all about control, what are they now? They're refuse; they just sit around not fighting. If the Citadel DLC is about the Keepers, it could definitely be a very anti-Synthesis DLC.

#47474
BleedingUranium
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 05:43

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DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Also, in light of this whole 'Reaper essence' discussion:

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I still think:

- Leviathans enthralled organic races
- Organics built machines to rebel against Leviathans (who could only control organics)
- Leviathans create AI to control machines too
- AI wants to harness the power of Leviathans, so it can control both organics and synthetics
- AI uses the controlled machines to harvest Leviathans
- AI builds first true Reaper, a synthesis of Leviathan essence and machine, known as Harbinger
- AI installs himself into this first Reaper so it can control both organics and synthetics

So, Reaper AI = Harbinger = the one to "establish a connection" between synthetics and organics.


Sorry for bringing this up again. I realize it's all speculation, but it makes so much sense in my opinion.


It does make sense Posted Image

Top of 1900! Posted Image

This is the 160175th post in the IT threads! Posted Image

Doomsday, your post on the top of page 1893 was post 160000 Posted Image

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 novembre 2012 - 05:53 .

#47475
Gwyphon
Posté 17 novembre 2012 - 06:08

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Gawd dangit Blur! I was lurking around for that!
And the "Shepard is the new reapers consciousness" seems like a pretty great idea. Doesn't the Leviathan have a line about Shepard being "different"?
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